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How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

Art Vandelay

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I don't know how to say this without sounding flippant, but I really am interested in hearing what people believe are the alternatives to assassinations. Perhaps I'm being naive, but my position is that, absent evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that Israeli has good reasons for their acts. So if anyone has such evidence, this is an invitation to share it.
 
geni said:
When the palistians kill Israeli leader they manage to do it without much in the way of colateral damage:Surely the IDF can do at least that well.
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How about when Hamas, Fateh, Islamic Jihad or Al Aqsa send a bus or restaurant bomber...does that fall under the Geni criteria of not much colateral damage?...Probably.

I know this thread is a tangent off the Sheik Ahmed Yassin remark by Cleon in which he stated;
Cleon said:
Israel "retired" a little old man in a wheelchair...By firing a missile into a crowd of people! Whatever you think about Yassin, the way they did is in itself worthy of condemnation.
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Well that little old man in a wheelchair Sheik Yassin was the spiritual leader of a group that has never tried to hide its desire for the complete destruction of Israel. As for Yassin being wheelchair bound Cleon, it is important to point out that Yassin was in a wheelchair since the age of 12 and that never stopped him from rising to the top of the terrorist dung pile. Listening to some people you'd have thought that the Hamas founder had more in common with Princess Di than with Al-Queda.
 
Ian Osborne said:
Can we rely on America to bring them to justice afterwards then?
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I wasn't aware that Leon Klinghoffer was head of a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of hundreds. Please enlighten me.
 
Ian Osborne said:
Can we rely on America to bring them to justice afterwards then?
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Ian means the Israelis who "retired" Sheik Ahmed Yassin Wildcat.

Sheik Ahmed Yassin led Hamas. As the leader of a recognized terrorist organization by the EU, USA and Israel who sent hundreds of suicide bombers to kill civilians he falls under the catergory of an unlawful combatant.

Or are we going to "bring to justice" all American and British soldiers who killed leaders of Al Queda and the Iraqi insurgency Ian? Oh, wait...what am I thinking.... normal rules don't apply because it's Israel we are talking about... :rolleyes:
 
zenith-nadir said:
How about when Hamas, Fateh, Islamic Jihad or Al Aqsa send a bus or restaurant bomber...does that fall under the Geni criteria of not much colateral damage?...Probably.
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Those actions were not targeted at individuals. Collaterial dammage is a meaningless term when you are trying to kill as many people as posible and don't care who they are. Most modern militry forces have snipers. If you have to kill the guy a simple bullet would have surficed (proabably cheaper to).
 
WildCat said:
I wasn't aware that Leon Klinghoffer was head of a terrorist group responsible for the deaths of hundreds.
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Which kinda makes your comparison invalid. Which was my point.

I'd be interested to see your list of people who can and can't be murdered in an extra-judicial killing, though. I suspect people who have struck out at the USA or Israel will be on it, and the likes of Oliver North and Ronald Reagan, who supported terrorist organisations in Central America, won't be.
 
geni said:
If you have to kill the guy a simple bullet would have surficed (proabably cheaper to).
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In your opinion. Some, like me, prefer him to blow up spectacularly, in public, as a clear message to all future Sheik Ahmed Yassins.
Ian Osborne said:
I'd be interested to see your list of people who can and can't be murdered in an extra-judicial killing, though. I suspect people who have struck out at the USA or Israel will be on it, and the likes of Oliver North and Ronald Reagan, who supported terrorist organisations in Central America, won't be.
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So when a missle is launched against an Al Queda training camp or an insurgents ammo dump in Iraq that is wrong. What should really happen is that everyone gets arrested peacefully is given access to a lawyer and a fair trial. Plaeeeezzzeee...Have you ever heard of war?
Giz said:
Electric or manual wheelchairs?
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Had Sheik Yassin had one of those tall orange safety flags on his wheelchair I suspect he would be alive today... ;).
 
geni said:
Most modern militry forces have snipers. If you have to kill the guy a simple bullet would have surficed (proabably cheaper to).
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Yeah, but snipers are not always available when a target presents itself. It would be nice if you always had the right specialist with the right equipment wherever you needed them, but the real world doesn't work that way.
 
zenith-nadir said:
In your opinion. Some, like me, prefer him to blow up spectacularly, in public, as a clear message to all future Sheik Ahmed Yassins.
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A message that force is an effective way of dealing with problems. Yes they seem to have already got that message.
 
Mycroft said:
Yeah, but snipers are not always available when a target presents itself. It would be nice if you always had the right specialist with the right equipment wherever you needed them, but the real world doesn't work that way.
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They knew where he was when they killed him. If a group of palistian amitures can do it surely the IDF can to.

Personaly I prefer arresting him. If you want to send a you are powerless to resist message they don't come much stronger.
 
Mycroft said:
Yeah, but snipers are not always available when a target presents itself. It would be nice if you always had the right specialist with the right equipment wherever you needed them, but the real world doesn't work that way.
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Yes, instead it's somehow more "cost-effective" to fly a helicopter to where the IDF knew he was, and fire a missile into a crowd of people coming out of a mosque.

Just to kill a little old man in a wheelchair.

The point wasn't to kill him; that had little effect on Hamas' actual operations, which Yassin wasn't really involved in. (He was a preacher, not a logistics guy. He left the details to his underlings.)

The point was to kill him in a way that was shocking and visible and would "send a message."
 
geni said:


Personaly I prefer arresting him. If you want to send a you are powerless to resist message they don't come much stronger.
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And the chance of that policy not resulting in street fighting and all the associated collateral damage (civilian deaths) is?

Not so good I'd wager...

If this guy was such a mover and a shaker on the terrorist scene perhaps the IDF should have clamped him?
Then he'd just be a shaker, and they've renounced violence...
 
Cleon said:
Yes, instead it's somehow more "cost-effective" to fly a helicopter to where the IDF knew he was, and fire a missile into a crowd of people coming out of a mosque.
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Hey everyone if Muqtada al-Sadr or Osama Bin Laden is leaving a mosque with their followers they are off limits...pass it around!
Cleon said:
Just to kill a little old man in a wheelchair.
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Being in a wheelchair didn't stop Yassin from climbing to the top of the terrorist dung heap. Enough with the liberal wheelchair B.S.
Cleon said:
The point wasn't to kill him; that had little effect on Hamas' actual operations, which Yassin wasn't really involved in. (He was a preacher, not a logistics guy. He left the details to his underlings.)
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It's total B.S. like this that takes the cake. Not only did Yassin authorized the killing of Palestinians believed to be collaborating with the Israel he founded Hamas. There is no differentiation between the "political" and "military" wings of Hamas, Yassin, himself, often authorized and encouraged attacks. His removal was a big blow to Hamas.

Originally posted by Giz
If this guy was such a mover and a shaker on the terrorist scene perhaps the IDF should have clamped him?
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He was arrested twice by Israel and as soon as he was let out he returned to his life of crime. Three strikes your out... ;)
 
Giz said:
And the chance of that policy not resulting in street fighting and all the associated collateral damage (civilian deaths) is?

Not so good I'd wager...
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Isreal are pretty good at crowd control and arresting people.
 
Art Vandelay said:
I don't know how to say this without sounding flippant, but I really am interested in hearing what people believe are the alternatives to assassinations. Perhaps I'm being naive, but my position is that, absent evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that Israeli has good reasons for their acts. So if anyone has such evidence, this is an invitation to share it.
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Contrary to my reading habits in this forum I read only the opening post this time.

An alternative way to the assassination is to kidnap the person on the wheel chair and bring him to a Court of Law. If you have enough ( that means documented reasons) to assassinate him that means that you can prove his guilt in a Court of Law too.

You see, even Eichmann got a trial before his execution....
 
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