How much time do we really have?

[TimCallahan]

If you believe in God and worry that you may have been created only for the purpose of eternal suffering, then I would pray about it/seek God, if I were you.

If you don't believe in God, then I wouldn't worry about it. If God, Heaven, and Hell are man made or only figments of our imaginations then you have nothing to worry about, why sweat it?

Our places have already been determined either way. We both seem to agree on this.

No we do not agree on this. If we actually have free will, and I believe we do, to some degree, then our places haven't been predetermined. And you still haven't answered the question of why God would create a being he knew would reject him. This failure of believers to answer such questions is one of the many reasons I don't believe in God.

 

[TimCallahan]

...Just start with the things which have been mentioned in the OP for example.

So far the only recourse to the Quran's historically accurate reference to Haman, has been to spin a number of lies in order to try and confuse people and steer them away from the truth. Post#364

But this is just one example.

Once again: The door-stop in the Vienna Fine Arts Museum bears the name Hemen-hetep, meaning "Hemen [the falcon god] is pleased [with this child]. It did NOT bear the name of Haman.

Names incorporating the name of a god + the suffix hotep, meaning, "is pleased," were fairly common in ancient Egypt. For example, a number of Egyptian pharaohs were named Amenhotep, meaning "Amon is pleased." Amon was the head of the Egyptian pantheon.

 

[dafydd]

Once again: The door-stop in the Vienna Fine Arts Museum bears the name Hemen-hetep, meaning "Hemen [the falcon god] is pleased [with this child]. It did NOT bear the name of Haman.

Names incorporating the name of a god + the suffix hotep, meaning, "is pleased," were fairly common in ancient Egypt. For example, a number of Egyptian pharaohs were named Amenhotep, meaning "Amon is pleased." Amon was the head of the Egyptian pantheon.

There you go again, bringing facts into religion.

 

[mikeb768]

How's work coming along on these lists, Mike?

You've had 2 months so far. How much more time do you need?

I'm guessing that you are referring to Noah's Ark?

 

[mikeb768]

What lies? I have gone through the evidence about Haman in great detail, providing sources where appropriate. Now tell me what lies I have told. Exactly what lies, please? I require an answer to this, by the way.

Just follow the link, they are clearly spelt out in the first three sentences.

 

[mikeb768]

No we do not agree on this. If we actually have free will, and I believe we do, to some degree, then our places haven't been predetermined. And you still haven't answered the question of why God would create a being he knew would reject him. This failure of believers to answer such questions is one of the many reasons I don't believe in God.

So you disbelieve in God because people who believe in God are unable to tell you why God created people knowing that some of them would reject him (aka free will)? That makes absolutely no sense, but everyone is free to believe what they want.

 

[mikeb768]

Once again: The door-stop in the Vienna Fine Arts Museum bears the name Hemen-hetep, meaning "Hemen [the falcon god] is pleased [with this child]. It did NOT bear the name of Haman.

Names incorporating the name of a god + the suffix hotep, meaning, "is pleased," were fairly common in ancient Egypt. For example, a number of Egyptian pharaohs were named Amenhotep, meaning "Amon is pleased." Amon was the head of the Egyptian pantheon.

Not exactly true if you view Post#364. No mention of falcon God. Haman is said to be "the overseer of the stonemasons".

You know like stone-masonry, people who build things from stone or hardened earth.

But we all know that the language of Ancient Egypt was lost for quite some time, so where did this information come from?

 

[Craig B]

Just follow the link, they are clearly spelt out in the first three sentences.

What link? What lies have I told?

 

[Craig B]

Just follow the link, they are clearly spelt out in the first three sentences.

Do you mean this?

First they tell you “This Haman character was no doubt borrowed from the Book of Ester in the Bible”, Muhammad is a Liar.

Then you are told to believe “No, this Haman character is a Hoax, completely made up”.

As a last resort they say “This Hemen which was mentioned, is no doubt the falcon-god taken from Egyptian Mythology”.

*Maybe you have heard this before? That a really good indicator which shows that someone may not be as honest as they claim, is that their story keeps changing.

No story keeps changing, and I am being perfectly honest. Do you mean that I say that Haman was borrowed from the Book of Esther, and I don't believe what I'm saying? I believe Muhammad got it from there not because he was a liar, but because he got the Bible stories garbled. I said it was a blunder. He makes others too, like mixing up Jesus' mother with Moses' sister because they have the same name. But that's not to say Muhammad was lying about this. He simply got the stories wrong.

Now, so much for the Quran. But the Egyptian Hmn-h was not identified by Muhammad, but by Bucaille. And Bucaille may be a liar for all I know. He got the details wrong and published utter nonsense. But this name on a doorpost has nothing to do with Muhammad.

You may say I am wrong, but I state what I have reason to believe, and I am not dishonest. Anyone can look at the posts in this thread. Now Hmn is the Egyptian falcon god Hemen. And the person Hmn-h was very probably called Hemenhotep (a perfectly normal Egyptian name) and he was the director of a quarry belonging to the temple of the god Amun, according to his funerary inscription. He has nothing to do with the Quran or the Bible.

 

[Chernobyl X1]

So you disbelieve in God because people who believe in God are unable to tell you why God created people knowing that some of them would reject him (aka free will)? That makes absolutely no sense, but everyone is free to believe what they want.

No, what doesn't make any sense is inventing imaginary beings to explain naturalistic events. Then when asked to give evidence it's a convenience to make things up about your imaginary being to explain it away. You find passages from an ancient set of writings from unknown ignorant writers who where completely wrong in their assessment of their world they observed. You twist these words around to make it fit with how you want your imaginary being fit your expectations of it. Finally, you dismiss evidence of how things work as if those that spend years finding explanations for these naturalistic events need your approval.

It has nothing to do with disbelief. Your imaginary friend has nothing to do with the physical universe, nor is it part of the equation in the search for the answers of how things work. You're welcome to have beliefs in such beings, entities, ghosts, or any other thing your mind can invent. But to make assertions that your figment answers any of the questions of our natural world is wrong.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

First they tell you “This Haman character was no doubt borrowed from the Book of Ester in the Bible”, Muhammad is a Liar.

Then you are told to believe “No, this Haman character is a Hoax, completely made up”.

As a last resort they say “This Hemen which was mentioned, is no doubt the falcon-god taken from Egyptian Mythology”.

*Maybe you have heard this before? That a really good indicator which shows that someone may not be as honest as they claim, is that their story keeps changing.

I think you are a deliberate liar about this.


Who has been saying “No, this Haman character is a Hoax, completely made up”?

I can't recall anybody. I do recall an often linked-to article called "The Haman hoax" or something, but as far as I recall there was nothing about any Haman characters being made up in there. It was all about trash apologetics. Have you read the article by now?

(What I do also remember is you being terribly confused about something Bucaille said, and attributed it to the wrong person too. "This Haman is not ..." )



Who has been saying “This Hemen which was mentioned, is no doubt the falcon-god taken from Egyptian Mythology”?

I can't recall anybody. What I have seen, is that the guy mentioned has the name Hemen-hotep. A name which contains the name of Hemen, the falcon god.



It all is not very complicated to understand, you know?



(I can't recall anybody calling Muhammed a liar either, but ... whatever. Thumbs up for the borrowing from Esther. That is about right.)

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Gospel is drivel.

Maybe so. But people have a knack to cling to it like babies to a pacifier. Not necessarily so which other drivel.

 

[tsig]

No, Mike you are the liar. You have been repeatedly shown that the stuff that you peddle is inaccurate, incomplete or downright false and deceptive. And yet, you repeat your apologetic drivel as if it were gospel.

I don't understand it.

Do you think people are stupid?

We judge others as ourselves.

 

[MikeG]

I'm guessing that you are referring to Noah's Ark?

Of course I'm not. How ridiculous. Click on the little red arrow in the quote and it takes you back to where I made the comment in the first place. There you will find the context. It was actually the 12th post in this thread, and my first.

-

Noah's ark? Really, that is such a ridiculous notion. There was no such thing, and the whole story is makey-uppey.

 

[TimCallahan]

So you disbelieve in God because people who believe in God are unable to tell you why God created people knowing that some of them would reject him (aka free will)? That makes absolutely no sense, but everyone is free to believe what they want.

Nice job of cherry-picking Here's what I actually said. Please note the hilited area:

This failure of believers to answer such questions is one of the many reasons I don't believe in God.

As to the belief in God, it is notoriously difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative. Therefore, the burden of proof lies on the the person or persons making a positive assertion. This is one reason fro the presumption of innocence in criminal cases. The burden of proof, that the accused committed the specific crime, is on the authorities charging the accused. The accused doesn't have to prove his or her innocence.

So, when it comes to whether there is or is not a god or gods creating and maintaining the universe, the burden of proof for such a divinity or divinities lies with those asserting the existence of such beings. So far, I see no reason to believe that the origin of the universe and its unfolding requires supernatural agency. I am open, however, as, I suspect most atheists are, to arguments for such a creator or creators.

 

[TimCallahan]

Not exactly true if you view Post#364. No mention of falcon God. Haman is said to be "the overseer of the stonemasons".

You know like stone-masonry, people who build things from stone or hardened earth.

But we all know that the language of Ancient Egypt was lost for quite some time, so where did this information come from?

I went to post #364 and clicked on the link to the Global Egyptian Museum. I copied the following from that link:

Door jamb belonging to Hemen-hetep

This is precisely what I and others have been arguing: The name is Hemen-hetep or Hemen-hotep, not Haman and not Amon-haman Once again:

1) Hemen was the name of an Egyptian falcon god.

2) Coupling a god's name with the suffix hotep (or its variant, hetep), a word meaning, roughly "is pleased," was fairly common in ancient Egyptian names. Thus, the person's name meant, "[deity's name] is pleased [with him]".

3) Besides Hemen-hetep, there is a name borne by a number of Egyptian kings, Amen-hotep - "Amon is pleased with him." There is also a compiler of Egyptian proverbs named Ptah-hotep. Ptah was a potter god, who, in one of the many Egyptian creation stories, formed humans out of clay. He eventually became a god of civilized arts, equated with the Mesopotamian god Nabu and the Greek Hermes. The name Ptah-hotep means "Ptah is pleased with him."


The story in the Qur'an of Pharaoh telling Haman to build a tower so he (Pharaoh) can climb up to see Moses' god (Q 28:38) seems to be a conflation, of the part of Muhammad, of the stories of the tower of Babel (Gen. 11:1 - 9), the character of Haman from the Book of Esther and the Pharaoh of the Book of Exodus.

This isn't the only such conflation of different biblical stories in the Qur'an. In Q 21:68, 69 idolators try to burn Abraham, who is a youth at the time; but God tells the fire to be cool. This conflation of the story of the three youths (Shadrach, Mishach and Abednego) thrown into the furnace by Nebuchadnezzar (Daniel 3) with the story of Abraham was apparently derived from a Jewish midrash in which Nimrod has Abraham thrown into a fiery furnace for refusing to worship idols. In the midrash we have a conflation of the character of Nimrod from Genesis, the story from Daniel and the character of Abraham.

 

[mikeb768]

Basically the Quran uses the letters: HMN (Ha, Mim, Nun) for the name Haman, and Experts in Ancient Egyptian Inscriptions use the letters HMN. We know that ḥtp (Hetep/Hotep) is often used to mean "to be satisfied, at peace", has been used to reference various people in Ancient Egypt, not Gods.

The Doorjamb also references HMN's son and mistress. Which further points to an actual person.

HNN was also said to be the head of Stonemasons, or a person responsible for building things of stone and baked clay. Just as the figure Haman who was referenced in the Quran.

So why are you still trying to conflate an Egyptian head of Stonemasons, with "Hemen" a falcon–god from Egyptian mythology? What you are doing comes across as intentionally misleading, if you ask me.

Just read my post, it is pretty clear. Post#364

 

[Donn]

Basically the Quran uses the letters: HMN (Ha, Mim, Nun) for the name Haman, and Experts in Ancient Egyptian Inscriptions use the letters HMN.

Nope. HMN are (in this use) English letters. Go circle some other collection of bullet holes.

Just read my post, it is pretty clear. Post#364

You call that clear?

 

[Craig B]

... So why are you still trying to conflate an Egyptian head of Stonemasons, with "Hemen" a falcon–god from Egyptian mythology? What you are doing comes across as intentionally misleading, if you ask me.

Nobody is doing anything of the sort. They are reading from the phonetics hmn-h an Egyptian name of known and normal type, containing the name of a known god. Hemenhotep, meaning "(the god) Hmn is pleased". It's like "Jesus" which is derived from a Hebrew name "Jehoshua" which means "(the god) YHWH is salvation".

 

[TimCallahan]

Basically the Quran uses the letters: HMN (Ha, Mim, Nun) for the name Haman, and Experts in Ancient Egyptian Inscriptions use the letters HMN. We know that ḥtp (Hetep/Hotep) is often used to mean "to be satisfied, at peace", has been used to reference various people in Ancient Egypt, not Gods.

You are flat-out wrong in this assertion. Here are a number of Egyptian names using the suffix hotep, all of which refer to gods:

Amenhotep (Amon was the head of the Egyptian pantheon), Sobekhotep (Sobek is represented as a crocodile-headed deity associated with the Nile), Ptah-hotep (Ptah was a potter deity and a god of civilized arts), Hemen-hotep (again, Hemen was a falcon god).

In addition to referring to gods, names with the suffix hotep could be used with words denoting certain qualities, in which case, hotep meant peace for example:

Neferhotep - nefer means either beauty or goodness. Thus, Neferhotep (one of the early pharaohs) means "Goodness and peace."

Imhotep - im apparently means a personage. Thus, Imhotep (an architect of the pyramids) means "One who comes in peace."

The Doorjamb also references HMN's son and mistress. Which further points to an actual person.

Yes, Hemen-hotep was a real person. He was not the same as the fictional Haman.

HNN was also said to be the head of Stonemasons, or a person responsible for building things of stone and baked clay. Just as the figure Haman who was referenced in the Quran.

Specifically, in Q 28:38 Pharaoh tells Haman to build him a tower reaching so high that Pharaoh can climb up to see Moses' God. This, again, is a fictional story, involving a fictional pharaoh, whose name is never identified, either in the Book of Exodus or in Surah 28. You can't even identify either this pharaoh or this building.

So why are you still trying to conflate an Egyptian head of Stonemasons, with "Hemen" a falcon–god from Egyptian mythology? What you are doing comes across as intentionally misleading, if you ask me.

AGAIN: Nobody has asserted anything of the kind. We are not asserting that Hemen-hotep was a falcon god. What we have repeatedly said - and you have repeatedly ignored - is that the name, Hemen-hotep, means "Hemen is pleased [with him]." Hemen was the name of a falcon god in the Egyptian pantheon. Nobody has ever asserted that Hemen-hotep was a falcon god. Is this getting through to you?

Just read my post, it is pretty clear. Post#364

Yes, we've all read your post. We all disagree with it for reasons we have repeatedly listed, which you have repeatedly ignored. What's clear is that you don't listen to any counterarguments and that you go out of your way to mischaracterize them. This, frankly, is dishonest.