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How much time do we really have?

Sure I believe it happened, now will we one day be able to confirm this, I have no idea. And regarding a person who still thinks the world is flat, I feel sorry for him. I would question his credentials, the quality of his education, inquire as to what evidence he has, and the methodology/reasoning which he is using to uphold his claims.

I'm a Muslim and I don't believe the world is flat, if that makes a difference.

Let's consider the actual verse in the Qur'an referring to the moon being split in two. Surah 54, Surah Al-Qamar ("the Moon") begins (Q 564:1):

The hour draws near. The moon is split in two.

The hour in question is the hour of judgement, the end of the world.

A number of Muslim websites have identified the Ariadaeus rille as evidence the moon was once split in two. While the Ariadaeus Rille is significant, at 300 + Km. in length, it nowhere approached the circumference of the moon, which is 10,917 Km. Hence, there is absolutely no scientific support for this Islamic claim.
 
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Let's consider the actual verse in the Qur'an referring to the moon being split in two. Surah 54, Surah Al-Qamar ("the Moon") begins (Q 564:1):

The hour draws near. The moon is split in two.

The hour in question is the hour of judgement, the end of the world.

A number of Muslim websites have identified the Ariadaeus rille as evidence the moon was once split in two. While the Ariadaeus Rille is significant, at 300 + Km. in length, it nowhere approached the circumference of the moon, which is 10,917 Km. Hence, there is absolutely no scientific support for this Islamic claim.

Yes, "The hour in question is the Hour of Judgement, the End of the World."
I think what you may be referring to are the Minor Signs, the advent of Muhammad (saw), the splitting of the Moon, and the Death of Muhammad, are all considered to be part of the Minor Signs, there are a number of these.

Prophet Muhammad said: I was sent as close to the day of judgment as these two fingers together (BUKHARI)

Narrated Sahl bin Sad: I saw Allah’s Apostle pointing with his index and middle fingers, saying. “The time of my Advent and the Hour are like these two fingers.” The Great Catastrophe will overwhelm everything.

Most of these signs are understood to have taken place/are currently taking place. Some are very specific and some are quite vague.
Here is a list which I compiled some time ago, mentioning what are considered to be the Minor Signs, the status/ranking of these are of my own deduction. There are many similar lists which can be found just by doing a search online (most probably much shorter than this), and this list has been only loosely organized;

[Minor Signs]

I think most people take for granted that God has been sending warnings, guidance, and reminders for a long time now. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last (or seal) of the prophets.
Consider the following:

-[Quran 10:47] "To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged."
-The Quran mentions over 25 named prophets, List of Quranic prophets
-I also remember reading somewhere, possibly a hadith that mentioned that some 124,000 unnamed prophets and messengers were sent to mankind throughout time, who preached in the language of the respective people.


Regarding actual proof that the moon was split, it is unlikely that anyone would be able to determine such, just based on a photo showing a line on the moon.
Also it's [Quran 54:1-2], btw.
 
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None of this is true. His name in the hieroglyphs and his funerary inscription may be rendered http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/app_inscription.html
The name means Mercy of (the god) Hemen a common form of personal name containing the name of a god. And he was the overseer of the stonemasons attached to the Temple of Amun, not all the masons in the country. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was a high minister of the government in the immediate entourage of the Pharaoh. Buchaille has evidently gone through a book of ancient Egyptian names, found one containing the letters hmn (among other letters), so vaguely resembling "Haman", and let his religion-charged imagination run amok!

The deity HemenWP was new to me, so yes, I found the Wiki entry.

mikeb768 wrote:
"We should note that "hotep" is the surname. This can be seen from the translated text "(3) His son Pu-hetep.""
Why do you think "hotep" is a surname?
 
Did either of them, or anyone else you can find prior to Buchaille, identify this name with the Quranic figure of "Haman"?

It is mikeb768 who keeps referring to Wreszinski and Ranke. Not only that, he keeps referring to exactly what's on those two facsimiles.

As I said before, mikeb768 is very confused.
 
The deity HemenWP was new to me, so yes, I found the Wiki entry.

mikeb768 wrote:
"We should note that "hotep" is the surname. This can be seen from the translated text "(3) His son Pu-hetep.""
Why do you think "hotep" is a surname?
I wrongly said it meant "mercy", which I'm sure I've seen somewhere, but here is a better source
Faulkner (Middle Egyptian, 1991 Griffith ISBN 0-900416-32-7) has:
p 159 hrt = "peace", hrw = "pleasing, be pleased, satisfied";
p 179 htp = "altar, offering, boon which the king grants, be pleased, be happy, be gracious, pardon, be at peace, be peaceful, become calm"
p 180 "rest, satisfy, make content, htpw peace, contentment, good pleasure, make peace, htpt peace, contentment. To put to rest disputes, and settle the complaints of petitioners be peaceful, calm, make peace".
So, peace.

Mikeb768, why don't you look things up before making such statements? (although I made something of an error with "mercy", perhaps) The name element "hotep" appears in Egyptian personal names containing the names of gods, and means "Peace of (the God so and so)". It is not a family surname!
 
I wrongly said it meant "mercy", which I'm sure I've seen somewhere, but here is a better source So, peace.

Mikeb768, why don't you look things up before making such statements? (although I made something of an error with "mercy", perhaps) The name element "hotep" appears in Egyptian personal names containing the names of gods, and means "Peace of (the God so and so)". It is not a family surname!

Yeah someone mentioned that earlier.
 
Did either of them, or anyone else you can find prior to Buchaille, identify this name with the Quranic figure of "Haman"?

Who was the first person to make the connection? Beats me. But why does it matter so much to you (it is a rather unimpressive feat). Also what makes you think that the people who worked on translating the Egyptian inscription based their work off of Bucallie's work?

It seems that you and others may be suggesting that the Museum or Walter Wreszinski first wrote "hmn-h" and then later updated his work to say Hemen based off of Bucallie's work? And if this is what you are suggesting do you have any proof for this?

As it stands the name provided by the museum currently reads "Hemen" in both the German and English translations. Link

Hemen
to
Haman

In some languages such as when writing Arabic (for example) vowel markers are often left out. For people who know the language this is not a real problem but for people who are not used to this it can be confusing, I'm not sure if this is what is going on in this case.
 
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mikeb768:

Here''s the response I got from the Vienna Fine Arts Museum regarding the so-called "Haman" tablet. Note particularly the hilited areas:

Dear Mr. Callahan,

[snip]
I send you a text – unfortunately it is only in German, but maybe you can translate it – which explains the philological and historical background of the object.
[snip]

Tim, have you actually received this text. I'd love to take a look.
 
As it stands the name provided by the museum currently reads "Hemen" in both the German and English translations. Link

Hemen
to
Haman

In some languages such as when writing Arabic (for example) vowel markers are often left out. For people who know the language this is not a real problem but for people who are not used to this it can be confusing, I'm not sure if this is what is going on in this case.
It is what is going on in this case. Hieroglyphs didn't indicate vowels adequately and e is put in if necessary as a default vowel. http://www.egyptartsite.com/glyph.html
. . . . AS in other languages, words in Egyptian were made up of sounds, partly of consonants and partly of vowels. But, the writing of hieroglyphs constantly ignored and omitted vowels. Thus the two signs which represent "mt", could be read as met, mat, amta, emt or any other combinations of vowels and "mt". Since the ancient language has never been heard, we are not sure how this word would be pronounced. In order to avoid this, we need a method of writing and pronouncing these glyphs consistently. The course usually adopted is to use the English vowel "e" and in a some cases "a" between the two glyphs. So we can pronounce (..) as "met".
The name in the inscription is given in your source as
the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen-hetep, true of voice.
An overseer of stonemasons of the Temple of Amun called "Hemen-hetep".
 
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Yes, "The hour in question is the Hour of Judgement, the End of the World."
I think what you may be referring to are the Minor Signs, the advent of Muhammad (saw), the splitting of the Moon, and the Death of Muhammad, are all considered to be part of the Minor Signs, there are a number of these.

Prophet Muhammad said: I was sent as close to the day of judgment as these two fingers together (BUKHARI)

Narrated Sahl bin Sad: I saw Allah’s Apostle pointing with his index and middle fingers, saying. “The time of my Advent and the Hour are like these two fingers.” The Great Catastrophe will overwhelm everything.

Most of these signs are understood to have taken place/are currently taking place. Some are very specific and some are quite vague.
Here is a list which I compiled some time ago, mentioning what are considered to be the Minor Signs, the status/ranking of these are of my own deduction. There are many similar lists which can be found just by doing a search online (most probably much shorter than this), and this list has been only loosely organized;
[qimg]http://s27.postimg.org/c6ma1s5gv/Minor_Signs.jpg[/qimg]
[Minor Signs]

I'm not going to get drawn into a detailed and ultimately pointless discussion of what are your interpretations of Islamic predictions and human events. It just be way too much material to be contained in one thread.

I think most people take for granted that God has been sending warnings, guidance, and reminders for a long time now. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last (or seal) of the prophets.
Consider the following:

-[Quran 10:47] "To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged."
-The Quran mentions over 25 named prophets, List of Quranic prophets
-I also remember reading somewhere, possibly a hadith that mentioned that some 124,000 unnamed prophets and messengers were sent to mankind throughout time, who preached in the language of the respective people.

So, now the hadiths have to be taken as holy writ? Remember that Sunni and Shia Muslims disagree on which hadiths are genuine. Also, there are Muslims known as "Quranists" who reject the hadiths as inspired to any degree.

Regarding actual proof that the moon was split, it is unlikely that anyone would be able to determine such, just based on a photo showing a line on the moon.
Also it's [Quran 54:1-2], btw.

Yes, Q 564:1 was a typo. Thank you for catching that.

Bear in mind that it is very difficult, if not impossible to prove a negative. Thus, I don't see that I have to prove to you that the moon was not split in two. Rather, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate to me that the moon was actually split in two during the lifetime of Muhammad.

That said, a number of pass-fail tests can be applied regardless of which position one takes on Muhammad splitting the moon in two. Muhammad is generally understood to have lived CE 570? - 632. If we accept Islamic tradition and accept him being born in 570, and also accept Islamic tradition that he received his first revelation at the age of 40; then the had to have split the moon in two sometime between 610 and 632. So, evidence that he did such a thing would be that the event would have been recorded by anyone capable of writing at that time. These include the Chinese, the Japanese, the Koreans, the people of India, the Persians, the Christians of the Byzantine Empire, Christian monks and priests in Europe, and some of the peoples of Central America and Mexico (Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs etc.). Yet, to my knowledge, none of these peoples recorded such an event. If you have evidence to the contrary, please tell me.

There should also be dramatic physical evidence of the moon having so recently been split in two. Specifically, there should be a scar girdling the moon. Not only have astronomers been looking at the moon with telescopes for a number of centuries, in the twentieth century close-up pictures have been taken by space probes. Such a feature should have been found by now. Therefore, your objection: "Regarding actual proof that the moon was split, it is unlikely that anyone would be able to determine such, just based on a photo showing a line on the moon"; doesn't really hold up. We are not talking about "a photo." We are talking about centuries worth of observations and thousands of photographs from both terrestrial and orbiting telescopes. The logical reason we haven't found physical evidence by now of the moon having been split in two in the 600s is that it didn't happen.
 
There should also be dramatic physical evidence of the moon having so recently been split in two. Specifically, there should be a scar girdling the moon.
It wasn't that sort of moon...
Regarding the sort that it was, I think you'll agree, there's a certain halfness to it.

It's a miracle!
:p
 
I'm not going to get drawn into a detailed and ultimately pointless discussion of what are your interpretations of Islamic predictions and human events. It just be way too much material to be contained in one thread.



So, now the hadiths have to be taken as holy writ? Remember that Sunni and Shia Muslims disagree on which hadiths are genuine. Also, there are Muslims known as "Quranists" who reject the hadiths as inspired to any degree.



Yes, Q 564:1 was a typo. Thank you for catching that.

Bear in mind that it is very difficult, if not impossible to prove a negative. Thus, I don't see that I have to prove to you that the moon was not split in two. Rather, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate to me that the moon was actually split in two during the lifetime of Muhammad.

That said, a number of pass-fail tests can be applied regardless of which position one takes on Muhammad splitting the moon in two. Muhammad is generally understood to have lived CE 570? - 632. If we accept Islamic tradition and accept him being born in 570, and also accept Islamic tradition that he received his first revelation at the age of 40; then the had to have split the moon in two sometime between 610 and 632. So, evidence that he did such a thing would be that the event would have been recorded by anyone capable of writing at that time. These include the Chinese, the Japanese, the Koreans, the people of India, the Persians, the Christians of the Byzantine Empire, Christian monks and priests in Europe, and some of the peoples of Central America and Mexico (Olmecs, Mayans, Aztecs etc.). Yet, to my knowledge, none of these peoples recorded such an event. If you have evidence to the contrary, please tell me.

There should also be dramatic physical evidence of the moon having so recently been split in two. Specifically, there should be a scar girdling the moon. Not only have astronomers been looking at the moon with telescopes for a number of centuries, in the twentieth century close-up pictures have been taken by space probes. Such a feature should have been found by now. Therefore, your objection: "Regarding actual proof that the moon was split, it is unlikely that anyone would be able to determine such, just based on a photo showing a line on the moon"; doesn't really hold up. We are not talking about "a photo." We are talking about centuries worth of observations and thousands of photographs from both terrestrial and orbiting telescopes. The logical reason we haven't found physical evidence by now of the moon having been split in two in the 600s is that it didn't happen.

You do realize that you are objecting to my objection that there exist proof of the moon being split? There is no burden of proof on me, to make you believe that, or anything else for that matter.

Although if you are genuinely interested in searching for others who may have witnessed the event (or historical records of the event), the video which you posted mentioned an individual from India who was said to have witnessed the event, traveled to meet the prophet, and subsequently converted to Islam. Maybe that would be a good place to start?

And yes the majority of Muslims agree that the hadiths are part of the religion, and that they also help to provide valuable insight outside of what is found within the Quran.
 
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You do realize that you are objecting to my objection that there exist proof of the moon being split? There is no burden of proof on me, to make you believe that, or anything else for that matter.

What I'm saying is this: If this very physical event happened, there should be records of it from other cultures and some physical evidence on the moon, likely visible to powerful telescopes, that it happened. Obviously, there is no obligation for you to make me believe. I'm merely saying that, without such evidence, your belief that Muhammad split the moon in two amounts to faith trumping observation and history. It is, as such, irrational faith.

Although if you are genuinely interested in searching for others who may have witnessed the event (or historical records of the event), the video which you posted mentioned an individual from India who was said to have witnessed the event, traveled to meet the prophet, and subsequently converted to Islam. Maybe that would be a good place to start?

At first, having only glossed over the site on the moon being split in two, I had overlooked the material on Cheraman Perumal. It appears this is not so much a name as a title. Yes, according to certain Muslim sources, the last one bearing this title did convert to Islam after seeing the moon split in two (an event curiously not seen by any Europeans, Byzantines, Persians, other Indians, Chinese, Koreans or Japanese). Here is a more objective history of the last Cheraman Perumal (from the site, bolding added):

The sudden disappearance of the last Cheraman Perumal led to various myths created around his fate. Upon the termination of tenure of the last Cheraman perumal, he is believed to have been ventured to one of the following places:
Mecca (which gave rise to the story of Tajuddeen Cheraman Perumal)
Kailash (which gave rise to the story of Cheraman Perumal Nayanaar)
Any Buddhist site such as Kapilavastu, Lumbini, Saranath
Nalanda university, which was once headed by Buddhists from Kerala.[2]
But the lack of proof regarding his travel to any of these places made his disappearance a mystery. There are however other tales that finalize the fate of Cheraman Perumal as:
Husband of Kshatriya woman and three Sudra girls, who beget the future kings of Kerala.[2]
King whose sister married Brahmin (Namboothiri) chief from Perumpadappu and the origin of Perumpadappu Swaroopam (Cochin Royal Family). [2]
King who sent message to Ceylon to bring back the carpenters,under the protection of Ezhavas.[2]
One who went to Mecca in 843 A.D. and converted to Islam taking the name of Abdul Rahman Samiri.[2]

The one most popularly told in Muslim circles, as one who witnessed splitting of moon and converted to Islam by Mohammed with the name of Thiya-uj-uddan (Crown of Faith).[2]

One who gave sword to Nayar chief at Calicut making him the Samootri of Calicut.[2]
King who gave trade rights to Christian merchants.[2]
One who gave cap to Ayikkara Yajamanan, symbolising his authority.[2]
King who became Saivite saint, visited Siva temples across south India along with Sundarar, then became faithful steward of Siva in Kailasa.[3]
Had become Buddhist.[2]

Thus, this supposed evidence, upon examination, turns out to be nothing more than an unsubsrtantiated Muslim legend.
And yes the majority of Muslims agree that the hadiths are part of the religion, and that they also help to provide valuable insight outside of what is found within the Quran.

Just out of curiosity, are you Sunni or Shia? Also, how do you deal with the differences between these two divisions regarding the hadiths?
 
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What I'm saying is this: If this very physical event happened, there should be records of it from other cultures and some physical evidence on the moon, likely visible to powerful telescopes, that it happened. Obviously, there is no obligation for you to make me believe. I'm merely saying that, without such evidence, your belief that Muhammad split the moon in two amounts to faith trumping observation and history. It is, as such, irrational faith.



At first, having only glossed over the site on the moon being split in two, I had overlooked the material on Cheraman Perumal. It appears this is not so much a name as a title. Yes, according to certain Muslim sources, the last one bearing this title did convert to Islam after seeing the moon split in two (an event curiously not seen by any Europeans, Byzantines, Persians, other Indians, Chinese, Koreans or Japanese. Here is a more objective history of the last Cheraman Perumal.



Just out of curiosity, are you Sunni or Shia? Also, how do you deal with the differences between these two divisions regarding the hadiths?

You can call it irrational if you like, I call it faith. Some things we can confirm, some we can't. I also consider the source of the information.

The video which someone had posted was this one, Link. It contains some pretty interesting things, some which I was familiar with some which I was not (Cheraman Perumal, Malik Deenar, etc.). If the splitting of the moon was something which had somehow been 100% confirmed, I'm pretty sure that I would have placed it on the chart.

I'm Sunni btw, if you couldn't already tell. Which of the hadiths are you so concerned about? Also if you agree with the undisputed things from the OP which remain, then what is your view as to how the Quran came to contain so many accurate predictions?
 
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You can call it irrational if you like, I call it faith. Some things we can confirm, some we can't. I also consider the source of the information.

Faith can be rational, irrational or a leap of faith. For example, if someone borrows $5.00 from me and pays it back promptly, then likewise borrows and pays back increasing sums of money, $10.00, then $20.00, etc.; then if he asks to borrow $100.00, and I lend it without asking for any documentation of the loan, I'll be lending it on faith, but it will be a faith based on past evidence supporting my faith that he will pay me back. If, on the other hand, eh repeatedly borrows increasing sums of money, never paying me back, and I lend him $100.00 based on faith that he will repay me, that faith would be irrational.

You have faith that Muhammad split the moon in two then fused the pieces back together sometime in the 600s. Such a faith would be rational were it supported by some evidence of the moon having been split in two, such as many people across at least half the world at the time observing the event and / or physical evidence observed by space probes. You do not have such evidence. Yet, in the face of evidence that nobody observed such an event during the lifetime of Muhammad, a lack of any evidence of such a fracture on the moon, when there should be, and even the fact that the verse in the Quran referring to the moon being split in two places it at the last hour; you have faith that Muhammad did this deed. That is irrational faith.

The video which someone had posted was this one, Link. It contains some pretty interesting things, some which I was familiar with some which I was not (Cheraman Perumal, Malik Deenar, etc.). If the splitting of the moon was something which had somehow been 100% confirmed, I'm pretty sure that I would have placed it on the chart.

This is the link I originally posted and of which you said it told of Cheraman Perumal. If you will recall, I pointed out that it is only in one unsubstantiated Islamic source that this man is supposed to have converted to Islam because he saw the moon split in two. Other sources have him converting to Islam in the 800s, and still others have him converting to Buddhism. Against this alleged evidence, we have people who would have seen this event in Europe, the Byzantine Empire, the Sassanid Persian Empire, India, China, Korea and Japan. Yet, nobody in any of these countries makes a note of such an event. Even if they had rejected it as mere sorcery -attributing it to Satan, they would have noted the occurrence. They didn't. The most logical conclusion is that it didn't happen.

I'm Sunni btw, if you couldn't already tell. Which of the hadiths are you so concerned about? Also if you agree with the undisputed things from the OP which remain, then what is your view as to how the Quran came to contain so many accurate predictions?

I don't recall agreeing with much of anything in the OP regarding Quranic predictions.

As to the hadiths, consider that some of the appeal of Islam is the simplicity of the faith and its lack of conundrums. One doesn't have to believe in one god who's three persons, but still one god. Also, one doesn't have to believe in a man who's a God but he's still a man etc. Also, other than leading a decent life, tIslam only demands that one affirm there is one God and that Muhammad is his messenger; one has to pray five times a day, one has to fast from dawn to dusk during the month of Ramadan; one has to give a certain percentage of one's wealth to the poor and, finally, if one can, one is to take the pilgrimage to Mecca. If one cannot pray five times a day due to special conditions or cannot fact due to health issues, one can do a charitable act to make up for this. Further, one is not to go into debt to make the Hajj. All this is simple and clear cut. Now consider Hadith Qudsi 6:

“The first of people against whom judgment will be pronounced on the Day of Resurrection will be a man who died a martyr. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I fought for You until I died a martyr.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but fight that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is courageous.’’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man who has studied [religious] knowledge and has taught it and who used to recite the Qur’an. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I studied [religious] knowledge and I taught it and I recited the Qur’an for Your sake.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but study [religious] knowledge that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is learned.’’ And you recited the Qur’an that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is a reciter.’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire. [Another] will be a man whom Allah had made rich and to whom He had given all kinds of wealth. He will be brought and Allah will make known to him His favours and he will recognize them. [The Almighty] will say: ‘And what did you do about them?’ He will say: ‘I left no path [un-trodden] in which You like money to be spent without spending in it for Your sake.’ He will say: ‘You have lied - you did but do so that it might be said [of you]: ‘He is open-handed.’’ And so it was said. Then he will be ordered to be dragged along on his face until he is cast into Hell-fire.”

So, according to this hadith, one has to worry about whether or not one had the right motivation. You can do all the right things and still be cast into hellfire. It's the Christian Calvinist trap all over again.

Also, isn't it true that both Sunnis and Shiites agree on whet's in the Qur'an? Yet, I've heard they disagree on which hadiths are valid. Correct me if I'm wrong on this point.
 
I disagree Tim - what you describe there is trust, not faith.

In this context, faith is always irrational. It explicitly means to accept something as true without reliable evidence, or even while ignoring reliable evidence to the contrary.
 
It is all open to interpretation (God is able to see the big picture, and all we get are snippets), and we are working at a definite disadvantage trying to interpret the exact meaning, not from the original text but from a translation of the original text.

Are you completely blind to the fact that statements like this are in direct contradiction to your OP claim that the Quran is perfect and uncorrupted?

The very fact there are different translations to choose from proves the claim false.
 

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