How much time do we really have?

[pakeha]

mikeb768:

Here''s the response I got from the Vienna Fine Arts Museum regarding the so-called "Haman" tablet. Note particularly the hilited areas:

Dear Mr. Callahan,

The mentioned object is part of the inventory of the Egyptian and Near Eastern Collection of the Kunsthistorisches Museum Vienna.
It is not a tablet, but a door jamb, broken into two parts (inv.no. AE_INV_5821 and AE_INV_5822). It was part of the tomb of a man called Hemen-hetep or Hemen-h. It is not known where this tomb was located.
During the last decades the name was misinterpreted as Hemen or Haman like the Egyptian official in the Qur'an. The hieroglyphic spelling of the name does not match the Arabic spelling.I send you a text – unfortunately it is only in German, but maybe you can translate it – which explains the philological and historical background of the object.

On these two websites you can find some information about the door jamb of Hemen-hetep:
http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=5136

http://bilddatenbank.khm.at/
just search for: AE_INV_5821

Best regards,
(name removed to protect the individual's privacy)

He didn't. He contacted the Vienna Fine Arts Museum. The name is proof that Maurice Bucaille, the Muslim originator of this Haman nonsense, is the one who didn't contact the museum.

he claimed to have had information from a French philologist, but That is the question you ask too, isn't it? Certainly yes, and that's why he wants to remain anonymous. Bucaille's alleged informant had no reason to do so. Maybe you're being silly.

Another matter. TimCallahan's informant knows the name of the Museum. Maurice Bucaille gets that wrong, indicating that he had never been there. Therefore nobody could have contacted the Hof museum, and Bucaille didn't. His account is quite obviously false. One contacts the Kunsthistorisches Museum. Kunst means Art.

For further information on this and on the other ludicrous errors and falsifications that are contained in Bucaille's account, please have a look at http://www.hzfojiao.info/answering-islam/bucaille-4.html.

Thanks, both of you, for going the extra mile to keep this thread honest.

 

[Craig4]

The Hadith were compiled more than two centuries after Muhammad's death.

My point was the sayings and observations of Muhammad in the Hadith were from well after he made up the Quran.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

For further information on this and on the other ludicrous errors and falsifications that are contained in Bucaille's account, please have a look at http://www.hzfojiao.info/answering-islam/bucaille-4.html.

Pyrts gave a better link to the same article. It's better because the URL's to some of the embedded images aren't broken.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/bucaille.html

I am by no means an expert in the pronunciation of Egyptian hieroglyphics, but I think that Walter Wreszinski who seems to be much more knowledgeable in this area has a pretty good case.

Wreszinski has absolutely nothing to do with the pronunciation of the name in question; he merely copied down the hieroglyphs. As you can see here on this image:
http://www.answering-islam.org/fileadmin/authors/katz/haman/wreszinski_i34.gif
(I am not sure if I am allowed to hotlink to the image, so you'll have to click the link.)

It is Ranke who gives the transcription as hmn-h.
http://www.answering-islam.org/fileadmin/authors/katz/haman/ranke-hmnh.gif

It is simply beyond me what case you fancy Wreszinski, or even Ranke, as having.

 

[mikeb768]

Pyrts gave a better link to the same article. It's better because the URL's to some of the embedded images aren't broken.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/bucaille.html



Wreszinski has absolutely nothing to do with the pronunciation of the name in question; he merely copied down the hieroglyphs. As you can see here on this image:
http://www.answering-islam.org/fileadmin/authors/katz/haman/wreszinski_i34.gif
(I am not sure if I am allowed to hotlink to the image, so you'll have to click the link.)

It is Ranke who gives the transcription as hmn-h.
http://www.answering-islam.org/fileadmin/authors/katz/haman/ranke-hmnh.gif

It is simply beyond me what case you fancy Wreszinski, or even Ranke, as having.

Actually the link from the museum actually does provide English translation, which seems to refer to a person by the name of "Hemen" who may have been the overseer of stonemasons.

Taken from the translation of the tablet:
"the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen"
"the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen"

[Quran 28:38]
"And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

Well the case would be this one of course. The Quran mentioning a close aid to the Pharaoh of Egypt by the name of Haman, who also was in charge of stone work. And something which is not found in the Bible.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Well the case would be this one of course.

Mhm-Mhm.

"but I think that Walter Wreszinski who seems to be much more knowledgeable in this area has a pretty good case"

The Quran mentioning a close aid to the Pharaoh of Egypt by the name of Haman, who also was in charge of stone work. And something which is not found in the Bible.

 

[mikeb768]

Did you even read the OP? If so did you not see that Noah's Ark is mentioned as being the only thing which has NOT taken place yet?

Yes Muslims believe in Noah and the Ark, unlike the Bible the Quran makes no indication that the flood was something which took place globally. Not to mention that trying fit 2 animals of every species onto one boat would be logistically, structurally impossible (I think most would agree).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah_in_Islam
Differences from Judeo-Christian teachings

*Corrected to say "the only thing which has NOT yet taken place", prior to the arrival of Jesus.

 

[Craig B]

Well the case would be this one of course. The Quran mentioning a close aid to the Pharaoh of Egypt by the name of Haman, who also was in charge of stone work. And something which is not found in the Bible.

None of this is true. His name in the hieroglyphs and his funerary inscription may be rendered

overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen-hetep, true of voice.

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/app_inscription.html
The name means Mercy of (the god) Hemen a common form of personal name containing the name of a god. And he was the overseer of the stonemasons attached to the Temple of Amun, not all the masons in the country. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was a high minister of the government in the immediate entourage of the Pharaoh. Buchaille has evidently gone through a book of ancient Egyptian names, found one containing the letters hmn (among other letters), so vaguely resembling "Haman", and let his religion-charged imagination run amok!

 

[mikeb768]

None of this is true. His name in the hieroglyphs and his funerary inscription may be rendered http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/app_inscription.html
The name means Mercy of (the god) Hemen a common form of personal name containing the name of a god. And he was the overseer of the stonemasons attached to the Temple of Amun, not all the masons in the country. There is no evidence whatsoever that he was a high minister of the government in the immediate entourage of the Pharaoh. Buchaille has evidently gone through a book of ancient Egyptian names, found one containing the letters hmn (among other letters), so vaguely resembling "Haman", and let his religion-charged imagination run amok!

The name has been "rendered"? What exactly are you talking about?
And why do you keep mentioning Maurice Bucallie? He has nothing to do with this?

Actually the link from the museum actually does provide English translation, which seems to refer to a person by the name of "Hemen" who may have been the overseer of stonemasons.

Taken from the translation of the tablet:
"the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen"
"the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun Hemen"

[Quran 28:38]
"And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

I am by no means an expert in the pronunciation of Egyptian hieroglyphics, but I think that Walter Wreszinski who seems to be much more knowledgeable in this area has a pretty good case.

 

[TimCallahan]

It is all open to interpretation (God is able to see the big picture, and all we get are snippets), and we are working at a definite disadvantage trying to interpret the exact meaning, not from the original text but from a translation of the original text. Based on the information available I am of the opinion that the consensus seems to point towards the Jewish people being brought together near the time of the Hereafter (the 2nd coming of Jesus is understood in a number of hadiths as being close to the time of Judgement Day). Part of the reasoning for this is that the promise taking place on or after Judgement Day does not really fit. Muslims believe that people will be judged by their actions, not their race/ethnicity or what part of the world they happened to be born into. [Quran 67:1-2], [Quran 56], [Muhammad's (saw) Last Sermon] (where he speaks against racism).

Yusif Ali placing the event as having already taken place (by putting it in the past tense) is once again off base imo. I'm not sure what he may be referring to, he mentions in his commentary (#2314) that this second warning was probably referring to an earlier portion of the surah [17:5], and that the Jewish people have never had a Jewish nationality since. He also makes note of the fact that some commentators understand the "second warning" to be the Day of Judgement. But as I mentioned before his translations were published in 1934,1938.

I also take into account the Christian perspective. With the Jewish people having been gathered together/brought back to Israel is meant to fulfill one or more prophecies as mentioned in the Bible.
I remember Bill Maher joking about this some many years ago, "Places, where are my Jews."
Bill Maher Why Do Christian Conservatives Love Israel

So, when it comes right down to it, what was supposedly "sent down in clear Arabic" can't survive translation into English? I find that hard to believe. I also find it hard to believe that your God can't make himself understood in more than one language, or that the Muslims translating the text have understood it in so many different and confusing ways.

This leaves it open for anybody, including both you and Yusif Ali, to interpret it any way they see fit. This is born out by how radically different the various translations are.

 

[TimCallahan]

Wow, that is pretty impressive if you did actually contact "Hof Museum in Vienna", to find out information about the actual tablet which Walter Wreszinski was referencing in his book.

Here is a link to the book where Walter Wreszinski said that the name "Haman" was indeed mentioned in Egyptian inscriptions.

Aegyptische Inschriften aus dem K.K. Hofmuseum in Wien

And a link to where this subject was previously discussed.#127

I didn't find anything about "Haman" at your linkl. What, exactly are you ctalking about? Here's another site discussing the supposed "Haman" inscription. From the site (bolding added as explained in RTA below:

The Curator of the Egyptian-Oriental Collection, Michaela Hüttner, checked the records and found no visitor or correspondence with any Bucaille enquiring to see the door-post before it went on public display in 1996, after Bucaille's book came out. Before that it was kept in the Museum storage.
Bucaille claims the inscription emphasises an intimate of a Pharaoh. It does not. The description refers to a god. The gracious falcon god Hemen.

In fact, the suffix hotep or hetep maens is pleased (with this child), as in the common pharonic name Ammonhotep, "Ammon is pleased." Hemenhetep would mean, "Hemen (the falcon god) is pleased."

So which of the two individuals is a more credible source on the subject, and why? And what's up with your individual wanting to remain anonymous? Does he actually work at the museum? Maybe he was let go from the museum for taking home ancient Egyptian artifacts and using them as door jambs?

Actually, I'm the one who withheld the name, as a courtesy, since I didn't know whether the museum official was okay with me publishing his / her name from what was a private e-mail communication. So, no, the official isn't nor has ever been, to my knowledge involved in anything illegal or nefarious. If you wish, you may e-mail the Vienna Fine Arts Museum (it's no longer called the Hof - meaning "Court" and referring to the imperial Hapsburg court - museum. The e-mail address is: info@khm.at

ETA: Since she is mentioned in the material from my link, as the Curator of the Egyptian-Oriental Collection, I will now go ahead and discluose that the e-mail I received was from Michaela Hüettner.

 

[mikeb768]

So, when it comes right down to it, what was supposedly "sent down in clear Arabic" can't survive translation into English? I find that hard to believe. I also find it hard to believe that your God can't make himself understood in more than one language, or that the Muslims translating the text have understood it in so many different and confusing ways.

This leaves it open for anybody, including both you and Yusif Ali, to interpret it any way they see fit. This is born out by how radically different the various translations are.

Language is complex; constantly in transition, sometimes requires historical context, can be quite malleable, sometimes things are unable to be translated with 100% accuracy from one to another, etc. etc.

This is not any limitation on God, as I mentioned before "God is able to see the big picture, and all we get are snippets".

 

[Craig B]

The name has been "rendered"? What exactly are you talking about?
And why do you keep mentioning Maurice Bucallie? He has nothing to do with this?

Yes he does. He originated this hieroglyph nonsense, as far as I can find out. See http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/bucaille.html He wrote a book Maurice Bucaille, Moses and Pharaoh in the Bible, Qur'an and History That's why I am mentioning him. What do you mean, he has nothing to do with this? Have you not been reading the many posts to this thread?

 

[TimCallahan]

Language is complex; constantly in transition, sometimes requires historical context, can be quite malleable, sometimes things are unable to be translated with 100% accuracy from one to another, etc. etc.

This is not any limitation on God, as I mentioned before "God is able to see the big picture, and all we get are snippets".

The question still remains as to why I should except your interpretation of the verse. Also, if the malleability of the text is so broad, how can we know anything from any ancient text? Of course, we can and do often know it.

If all we get is snippets, then no sacred text is of any value whatsoever.

In regard to what the Qur'an actually says, let me ask you this question: Do you believe that Muhammad actually split the moon in two at his mere word and, again by his word alone, fused the two pieces together?

Also, does the Qur'an argue that the earth orbits the sun, or that the sun orbits the earth?

These may seem like strange questions, but I have specific reasons for asking them. For example, here is a Muslim website asserting that Muhammad did indeed split the moon in two. And here is a debate between two Muslims on whether or not the earth is spherical and goes around the sun or if the earth is flat and the sun orbits it.

 

[mikeb768]

Yes he does. He originated this hieroglyph nonsense, as far as I can find out. See http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/katz/haman/bucaille.html He wrote a book Maurice Bucaille, Moses and Pharaoh in the Bible, Qur'an and History That's why I am mentioning him. What do you mean, he has nothing to do with this? Have you not been reading the many posts to this thread?

[+] The Quran was revealed between 609-623 (Haman mentioned) [Quran 28:6, 8, 38; 29:39; 40:24, 36]
[+] The year 1878 is when The ancient Egyptian Door jamb belonging to Hemen-hetep was acquired.
[+] The Rosetta Stone was rediscovered 1799, (thus allowing scholars to be able to read Ancient Egyptian inscriptions and literature)
[+] In 1906 Walter Wreszinski publishes a book on Ancient Egyptian Inscriptions which mentions an individual by the Name of Hemen who is also said to be "the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun".

[Quran 28:38]
"And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."

Maurice Bucaille wasn't even born until 1920. Why should any one bother reading the many post you keep trying to use as references, which point to a man who has no connection or relevance to what it is that we are discussing?

Someone earlier in the thread was thanking individuals for "going the extra mile to keep this thread honest". What you are doing is not honest sir.

 

[mikeb768]

The question still remains as to why I should except your interpretation of the verse. Also, if the malleability of the text is so broad, how can we know anything from any ancient text? Of course, we can and do often know it.

If all we get is snippets, then no sacred text is of any value whatsoever.

In regard to what the Qur'an actually says, let me ask you this question: Do you believe that Muhammad actually split the moon in two at his mere word and, again by his word alone, fused the two pieces together?

Also, does the Qur'an argue that the earth orbits the sun, or that the sun orbits the earth?

These may seem like strange questions, but I have specific reasons for asking them. For example, here is a Muslim website asserting that Muhammad did indeed split the moon in two. And here is a debate between two Muslims on whether or not the earth is spherical and goes around the sun or if the earth is flat and the sun orbits it.

Sure I believe it happened, now will we one day be able to confirm this, I have no idea. And regarding a person who still thinks the world is flat, I feel sorry for him. I would question his credentials, the quality of his education, inquire as to what evidence he has, and the methodology/reasoning which he is using to uphold his claims.

I'm a Muslim and I don't believe the world is flat, if that makes a difference.

 

[Craig B]

[+] The Quran was revealed between 609-623 (Haman mentioned) [Quran 28:6, 8, 38; 29:39; 40:24, 36]
[+] The year 1878 is when The ancient Egyptian Door jamb belonging to Hemen-hetep was acquired.

Was Hemen-hetep then identified with "Haman"? If so, by whom?

[+] The Rosetta Stone was rediscovered 1799, (thus allowing scholars to be able to read Ancient Egyptian inscriptions and literature)
[+] In 1906 Walter Wreszinski publishes a book on Ancient Egyptian Inscriptions which mentions an individual by the Name of Hemen who is also said to be "the overseer of the stonemasons of Amun".

Was this person then identified with Haman? If so, by whom?

Maurice Bucaille wasn't even born until 1920. Why should any one bother reading the many post you keep trying to use as references, which point to a man who has no connection or relevance to what it is that we are discussing?

Before him, who identified this hieroglyphic name with Haman?

Someone earlier in the thread was thanking individuals for "going the extra mile to keep this thread honest". What you are doing is not honest sir.

Why not? Even if I am mistaken, why does that make me a liar? Anyway, please find me someone who identified the inscription with the Quranic Haman before Bucaille and I will agree my source is wrong.

 

[mikeb768]

Was Hemen-hetep then identified with "Haman"? If so, by whom? Was this person then identified with Haman? If so, by whom? Before him, who identified this hieroglyphic name with Haman? Why not? Even if I am mistaken, why does that make me a liar? Anyway, please find me someone who identified the inscription with the Quranic Haman before Bucaille and I will agree my source is wrong.

The two people were Walter Wreszinski and Hermann Ranke, this was mentioned much earlier in the thread. post#127

 

[Craig B]

The two people were Walter Wreszinski and Hermann Ranke, this was mentioned much earlier in the thread. post#127

These scholars noted the name "Hemen-hotep", in lists containing other names, or inscribed on a door jamb. Now read this carefully: did they identify this name explicitly with the Quranic "Haman"? My source states that Bucaille was the first to do this.

 

[mikeb768]

These scholars noted the name "Hemen-hotep", in lists containing other names, or inscribed on a door jamb. Now read this carefully: did they identify this name explicitly with the Quranic "Haman"? My source states that Bucaille was the first to do this.

So you credit Bucaille with being the first to make the leap from:

Hemen
to
Haman

We should note that "hotep" is the surname. This can be seen from the translated text "(3) His son Pu-hetep."
OK. And if this is true, your point is?

 

[TimCallahan]

So you credit Bucaille with being the first to make the leap from:

Hemen
to
Haman

We should note that "hotep" is the surname. This can be seen from the translated text "(3) His son Pu-hetep."
OK. And if this is true, your point is?

Hotep is not a surname. It is a suffix in Egyptian names meaning "is pleased" and is always couple with a prefix that is a god's name, such Ammonhotep, "Ammon is pleased (with this child)", a common pharaonic name. Whereever did yu get the idea that hotep was a surname?