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How much punishment is enough?

Cainkane1

Philosopher
Joined
Jul 16, 2005
Messages
9,011
Location
The great American southeast
I was reading the newspaper about a man in my town who had gone to prison for molesting a child. He served 10 years for this crime and he is on a sex offender list. He has been out for ten years and is gainfully employed. He is married.

Recently a law has been passed that says that child molesters cannot live withing seventy yards of a offenders home. Ok is this right? He has shown no tendency to repeat his crime and he is gainfully employed. He has to move from his wifes house because he's legally too close to a school bus stop. He sued and the law is currently tied up in state court.
 
Ok is this right? He has shown no tendency to repeat his crime and he is gainfully employed. He has to move from his wifes house because he's legally too close to a school bus stop. He sued and the law is currently tied up in state court.

He had his chance to NOT molest a CHILD, and he blew it. Too bad his life's a little more difficult now. The child's life will NEVER be normal again. If his wife loves him, she'll move with him somewhere else. Anyone check his email lately? Did he really turn his life around in those 10 years, or is pedophilial like alcoholism? Does the temptation last a lifetime?
 
The disturbing issue is not punishment itself, but retroactivity of punishment, which I thought had been established as a Bad Thing in Article 8 of the Declaration of 1789, and again in Article 11 of the Declaration of 1948.
 
There are hefty consequences we pay in life. Yea, it's inconvenient he has to move but this isn't being done to him based on race or gender, or anything superficial or unfair. He is being penalized b/c of the nature of his crime. It doesn't matter if it was 5,10,15,20 years ago, society and the law will never ever trust a pedo around children again. It's for the protection of the children AS WELL AS THE PERP. Sometimes ppl with sicknesses NEED(and want) boundaries in order to make the act more difficult to accomplish.

Could you honsetly say that you'd trust him with your kid, neice, nephew, whatever?

I don't care if he found God, or is the best role model citizen, it would always be in the back of my mind...therefore I wouldn't and COULDN'T trust..no matter how good he cleaned up!
 
There are hefty consequences we pay in life. Yea, it's inconvenient he has to move but this isn't being done to him based on race or gender, or anything superficial or unfair. He is being penalized b/c of the nature of his crime. It doesn't matter if it was 5,10,15,20 years ago, society and the law will never ever trust a pedo around children again. It's for the protection of the children AS WELL AS THE PERP. Sometimes ppl with sicknesses NEED(and want) boundaries in order to make the act more difficult to accomplish.

Could you honsetly say that you'd trust him with your kid, neice, nephew, whatever?

I don't care if he found God, or is the best role model citizen, it would always be in the back of my mind...therefore I wouldn't and COULDN'T trust..no matter how good he cleaned up!

Yes he made his choice and now he has to pay the price but where is this person going to go that has children far enough away from him? Ten years is a long time but perhaps your right some crimes are worse than others and we need to protect our children.
 
He had his chance to NOT molest a CHILD, and he blew it. Too bad his life's a little more difficult now. The child's life will NEVER be normal again. If his wife loves him, she'll move with him somewhere else. Anyone check his email lately? Did he really turn his life around in those 10 years, or is pedophilial like alcoholism? Does the temptation last a lifetime?

You're right the child he improperly touched will never be the same. Its difficult to feel sorry for this person even if he has been rehabilitated. My only problem is this. He has not committed another crime in the ten years since his release. What more can he do? However the consensus of opinion seems to be that protecting our children comes first and theres arguing with that.
 
Ah, the amazing concept of a penal system.

There are four aims of a justice system's sentencing, some of which can conflict - to punish offenders, to rehabilitate offenders, to remove offenders from the community and to prevent them from harming again.

Punishment is often touted as a form of warning to prevent individuals from offending, however it is more seen to be imposed as a form of retribution to make society feel a sense of compensation. While this sits uncomfortably with me (I see no benefit other than making people feel that something is being done), I don't see it ever changing, people being what they are.

Rehabilitation seems to be fine...until it sometimes fails. Then the public gets angry. So until there is a 100% rehabilitation program it will never be the central aim of a justice system's sentencing.

Removal from society makes people feel safer. However the question is then 'how long'? Forever? If not, why just a few years? Will society be any safer when they come out, especially with a few more tricks up their sleeve? Separate from rehabilitation, removal makes little sense.

Prevention from doing wrong again through measures such as this one take into account that the person has demonstrated the potential to do harm, and this potential should be limited with respect to observing the above reasons for sentencing. Therefore it is not retribution behind the action of keeping the man's distance from children, but prevention.

Unfortunately there is no happy balance between the above reasons for a penal system, and they are what influences every decision made by a member of the justice system.

Athon
 
I am very much against these new laws regarding sex offenders as I have always been against the very idea of having a registered sex offender list in the first place.

Keep in mind here that I was myself sexually assaulted when I was 8 years old. If anyone has a bone to pick with molesters it's me.

However I believe that when a person has done their time then that's that. If they recommit the crime then you punish them, the individual, again. We're not supposed to assume a person will recommit a crime when they've completed their sentence, but that is the very premise all these sex offender "restrictions" are based around. IF we are so sure, so absolutely confident, that these people will re-offend then we shouldn't be releasing them in the first place. IF we are not so sure, so absolutely confident, they will re-offend then all these restrictions are pathetic and criminal.
 
This is a skeptics board, though I know woo to do with sex is a sacred cow even most atheists won't give up, but lets ask a few things

WHAT is the rate of recidivism between molestation, lets go pre-teen here so we aren't getting cultural or national and armed robbery

Which one, honestly, affects more lives negatively per criminal?

Also, if this act is a "sickness" which someone said above, what was the point of putting him in jail in the first place?

If its a crime, than why should the time served not be good enough? It sure is for murder or armed robbery, even violent carjacking

This draws a weird parellel of alcholism, where an alleged disease can be court ordered to be treated with religion ( AA )
 
I was reading the newspaper about a man in my town who had gone to prison for molesting a child. He served 10 years for this crime and he is on a sex offender list. He has been out for ten years and is gainfully employed. He is married.

Recently a law has been passed that says that child molesters cannot live withing seventy yards of a offenders home. Ok is this right? He has shown no tendency to repeat his crime and he is gainfully employed. He has to move from his wifes house because he's legally too close to a school bus stop. He sued and the law is currently tied up in state court.

I agree that these laws have a witch-hunt taste to them. Look at the two 13-14 year old boys in PA, who were facing adult "sexual predator" prosecution because they slapped the rears of a few girls in the school hallway on "slap butt day" (they also slapped the butts of boys, and the girls were slapping THEIR butts, by the way--they just happened to get caught by a hyper-feminist prici"pal"). They were looking at prison time, and at the very least being identified for the rest of their lives as "sexual predators" on the lists and all that. For really pretty damned innocent stuff...the girls and their families had ZERO interest in persuing this, it was ALL the hyper-feminist principal.

We also need to take a much harder look at what, exactly, "molestation" is. If this guy was convicted of, as an adult, sexually touching an ACTUAL child, some little kid under the age of 14, say, then that's pretty clearly defined as molestation in my mind. There was a 22-3 yr-old in Atlanta facing something like 20 years for "molesting" his 15 yr-old gf...here's another issue: when a hot female teacher is caught "molesting" a student, she gets probation. When a male teacher is caught doing this (and it happens WAY more than we like to admit, both male and female teachers--and always has, by the way) he goes to jail for 20 years. Why? Look, when I was a kid and some other guy was doing the hot teacher in the school we had a name for this sort of kid. We called him "lucky bastard." Today, in our hyperfeminist society, with most households run by women, we call this "molestation."

So, was this guy convicted of "molestation" of his 15 yr. old girlfriend when he was 20, well or real molestation?

REAL molesters virtually never stop, unless they are entirely kept from children; ounce of prevention, worth a pound of cure. We need grades of "molestation." If this guy was convicted of molesting an actual child, I have no problem with this. If he had consensual sex with a 14+ year-old, this is ridiculous.

Tokie
 
This is a

This draws a weird parellel of alcholism, where an alleged disease can be court ordered to be treated with religion ( AA )

First, no...I don't have a link--LIIIIINKKKKK!!!--but anyone who can recognize that the sun rises in the east should also be able to recognize that as the social stigma of adult-child sexual contact is steadily eroded by the left and feminism in the West, esp. America, true molestation of kids occurs more and more. Moreover, as our culture sexualizes younger and younger kids, we ALL begin to view younger and younger kids as sexually available. Frankly, when I see a physically mature 13 year old girl dressed like Brittany Spears, I have a hard time identifying her as only 13 if she is in any way out of a context that would automatically ID her as such (school, say).

So, that said...like alcoholism, this is not a "disease" but rather a choice some people make. They have poor impulse control; that, by the way, can be treated pharmaceutically. The reality is that what our hyperfeminist culture has, since the 1960s begun (and that is complete now) identified as a pathology, is simply normal human (animal) behavior in the male of the species. Men like to look at and acquire fecund-appearing younger females. It's that simple. While we look askance at this when we see some 40-something with a 20something wife of girlfriend, for some reason when Stella gets her groove back with a MAN half her age, we applaud that?

Can anyone explain this socicial dichotomy?

We put "dirty old men" in jail for this, after building a cultural milieu that tells them: teenaged girls are sexually available to you...just look how we dress them! For example, a male teacher who engages in sex with a female student (consensual, a sexually mature female, I am talking about...14-17 yrs., say) he goes to prison for 20 years. When a FEMALE teacher does the same thing, even with boys as young as 10, she gets probation.

Hey, she's just gettin' her grooooove back, right?

Tokie
 
First, no...I don't have a link--LIIIIINKKKKK!!!--but anyone who can recognize that the sun rises in the east should also be able to recognize that as the social stigma of adult-child sexual contact is steadily eroded by the left and feminism in the West, esp. America, true molestation of kids occurs more and more. Moreover, as our culture sexualizes younger and younger kids, we ALL begin to view younger and younger kids as sexually available. Frankly, when I see a physically mature 13 year old girl dressed like Brittany Spears, I have a hard time identifying her as only 13 if she is in any way out of a context that would automatically ID her as such (school, say).

So, that said...like alcoholism, this is not a "disease" but rather a choice some people make. They have poor impulse control; that, by the way, can be treated pharmaceutically. The reality is that what our hyperfeminist culture has, since the 1960s begun (and that is complete now) identified as a pathology, is simply normal human (animal) behavior in the male of the species. Men like to look at and acquire fecund-appearing younger females. It's that simple. While we look askance at this when we see some 40-something with a 20something wife of girlfriend, for some reason when Stella gets her groove back with a MAN half her age, we applaud that?

Can anyone explain this socicial dichotomy?

We put "dirty old men" in jail for this, after building a cultural milieu that tells them: teenaged girls are sexually available to you...just look how we dress them! For example, a male teacher who engages in sex with a female student (consensual, a sexually mature female, I am talking about...14-17 yrs., say) he goes to prison for 20 years. When a FEMALE teacher does the same thing, even with boys as young as 10, she gets probation.

Hey, she's just gettin' her grooooove back, right?

Tokie

Hey, you're just an idiot, right?:rolleyes:
 
I agree with Token's first post in general, but the guy did ten years for the original crime, which would suggest something far more serious than underage sex with a consenting partner who was not much younger than him.

Remember, 'facing 20 years' (as per your example from Atlanta) is not the same as 'doing 20 years'. A sentence will reflect the seriousness of the crime, so the maximum sentence (which is clearly being reported here) will be reserved for the most serious breaches of the law. That's not to say the law sometimes gets things badly wrong and forces sentences which are out of all proportion to the crime, but these are the exception rather than the rule. It's reasonably safe to say a ten-year sentence implies a serious crime, especially as the guy doesn't seem to be advertising what he did as a reason why he shouldn't be restricted from living near school bus stops.
 
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It might have more to do with the practicalities. Child sex assault is seen as a worse offense than armed robbery and closer to rape and murder. While you can't order a rapist to stay away from women (or men) and you can't order a murderer to stay away from other people it is practical to order a molester to stay away from children because it's much easier and there's no reason for them to be around children in the first place.

The 70 yards rule probably came about because they found that most people don't live within that distance of a school bus stop, so for a molester to live that close means it's likely that his/her residence was chosen for that reason.

This is a skeptics board, though I know woo to do with sex is a sacred cow even most atheists won't give up, but lets ask a few things

WHAT is the rate of recidivism between molestation, lets go pre-teen here so we aren't getting cultural or national and armed robbery

Which one, honestly, affects more lives negatively per criminal?

Also, if this act is a "sickness" which someone said above, what was the point of putting him in jail in the first place?

If its a crime, than why should the time served not be good enough? It sure is for murder or armed robbery, even violent carjacking

This draws a weird parellel of alcholism, where an alleged disease can be court ordered to be treated with religion ( AA )
 
I agree with Token's first post in general, but the guy did ten years for the original crime, which would suggest something far more serious than underage sex with a consenting partner who was not much younger than him.

Remember, 'facing 20 years' (as per your example from Atlanta) is not the same as 'doing 20 years'. A sentence will reflect the seriousness of the crime, so the maximum sentence (which is clearly being reported here) will be reserved for the most serious breaches of the law. That's not to say the law sometimes gets things badly wrong and forces sentences which are out of all proportion to the crime, but these are the exception rather than the rule. It's reasonably safe to say a ten-year sentence implies a serious crime, especially as the guy doesn't seem to be advertising what he did as a reason why he shouldn't be restricted from living near school bus stops.


1. I'm not so sure. 25-26 yr-old teachers have gotten 10 and 20 years for sex with 16 and 17 yr old students. Yes, a slightly different situation, but only slightly. I guess we'd need some stats on this, but my guess is his sentence depends on a number of factors such as what could be thrown at him, how hard the prosecutors were pushing it (and for what political reasons), the judge's prejudices, etc. And we give people more than 10 years for posession of an ounce of pot...how serious is that?

2. Sorry, I mispoke. By "facing" I meant, he'd been convicted and sentenced and was about to be moved from a juvenile facility into a state pen, to "face" that 20 years. Sorry for the miscommunication. The issue here was, as it so often is, how left-liberal/feminist the sentencing judge is and how hard the prosecutor is pushing it for political gain and or to satisfy his/her own left-liberal feminist agenda.

Again, on this particular crime, our nation is about as bassakward as you can be. On the one hand, our culture, today, tells us that girls are sexually available from about age 10 up, and encourages girls from that age (and younger) to look the part as much as they are able. On the other hand, the same culture tells us that any man who pays attention to the female form is a "perv" and if he's more than a few years older than the woman (whether she's 10 or 30) he's admiring, that makes him a "dirty old man," or worse, a "molester."

Now, of course, we all lie about it, as we must. We are told that it is "wrong" for a man of any age to notice the sweet, nubile young thing wearing a micro miniskirt, spike heels and a breast-baring top, even more so if he's say, 40 and she's 17. And so we men have been training ourselves for the past 40 years to steal glances at such a girl and say "well, that's just turrible that young ladies dress this way! I'm shocked and apalled!" Actually, as a lifetime member of the DOMPC (Dirty Old Man Perv Club--well, at least since I was 12 or 13 years of age), I am rather appreciative of such raiment on the right form, and always have been. I like looking at attractive women whether they are my age, or 25 or 30 years younger...or even older than me, and if they are dressed sexy/seductively, more's the better!

There, I said it, it's out! I admit it: I am a normal human male animal! I do exactly what my Creator or nature designed me to do: use my eyes to identify females of my species who I find "attractive" in a sexual sense because ultimately, I am like any other animal and primarily designed to attempt at almost any cost to pass my genetic material on.

Shame on me!!!

But at least I can man up to the truth, eh?

With this sort of schizoid cultural sense, it's no wonder we have so many problems with sex in America (next, we take on alcohol!), and the West in general. Could be worse (and of course my next words will mark me as an intolerant bigot and perhaps racist, too)...we could be Muslim. Talk about twisted up over sex.

Tokie
 
I agree with Token's first post in general, but the guy did ten years for the original crime, which would suggest something far more serious than underage sex with a consenting partner who was not much younger than him.

Remember, 'facing 20 years' (as per your example from Atlanta) is not the same as 'doing 20 years'. A sentence will reflect the seriousness of the crime, so the maximum sentence (which is clearly being reported here) will be reserved for the most serious breaches of the law. That's not to say the law sometimes gets things badly wrong and forces sentences which are out of all proportion to the crime, but these are the exception rather than the rule. It's reasonably safe to say a ten-year sentence implies a serious crime, especially as the guy doesn't seem to be advertising what he did as a reason why he shouldn't be restricted from living near school bus stops.

Not necessarily. I have a cousin who, when he was 16, made a sex tape with his 15 year old girlfriend. It was found and he was charged with possession of child pornography. He was convicted and given a ten year sentence. This November will mark his 7th year of serving that sentence. When he is eventually released he will be subject to all these new rules preventing him from living near bus stops, parks, schools etc.

It was what happened to him that fully turned me against the witch hunt of so called "sex offenders."
 
thats a great example

It takes him from "bad boy, bad, bad boy, her dad is going to whup your behind" to magically evil person, incurable and always a detriment to society with magically disastrous implications

I would WAY rather every kid in the universe videotaped their exploits than ONE 16 year old run a red light with his car

Which one is more likely actually going to hurt people?
 
thats a great example

It takes him from "bad boy, bad, bad boy, her dad is going to whup your behind" to magically evil person, incurable and always a detriment to society with magically disastrous implications

I would WAY rather every kid in the universe videotaped their exploits than ONE 16 year old run a red light with his car

Which one is more likely actually going to hurt people?

What really made me angry was that the girl had a copy of the tape too and it was found after the police searched her place. She, however, was never charged with anything.

That along with the wrongful arrest and prosecution of my little brother made me an enemy of prosecuting attorneys for life.
 

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