How could CIA/NSA/FBI miss the 9/11 attack?

[LSSBB]

Are you refering to the 35W bridge collapse in Minneapolis? Sorry to quote this so late, but I'm from the area and this popped out at me as I wasn't aware of any problems with 35E (and theoretically neither was the CIA).

Yes, 35W.

 

[NoahFence]

Incidental: I once read a copy of Time for Jan 2000. In it is an article about threats to America. Like Osama bin Laden.

It was common knowledge.

 

[HotRodDeluxe]

It was common knowledge.

Indeed, IIRC, I remember an Australian ABC special, either Foreign Correspondent, or Four Corners running a background programme about the rise of AQ and UBL back in the '90's around the time of the Embassy bombings. Anyone with an ear to world news should have been aware of the threat from AQ prior to 9/11. I remember clearly telling a colleague that 'OBL had finally done it' at work that day (Aus. EST, the news was unfolding here about 11:00pm the previous evening).

 

[JohnG]

Yeah, there was an interview with Bin Laden on network TV a year or so before 9/11 where he flat-out said he was preparing to attack the US. It was pretty widely-publicized at the time. I watched the interview and thought to myself "this isn't going to end well". As soon as the second plane hit the morning of 9/11 my first thoughts were "Bin Laden". The only people who don't seem to know about all this are people who were children 14 years ago...or idiots...or, you know, Conspiracy Theorists, who at the time were too busy obsessing over baby-eating shapeshifting Illuminati lizard-people to pay any attention to such unsexy, prosaic things as "current events".

 

[Jango]

Then explain

​

Then explain

​

No, you're talking explicitly about the United States government. You change your stories far too often for anyone to take you seriously.


So you're saying that right now you have no evidence that the mole in question had any knowledge of 9/11. Then you don't get to claim he did. Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Nah. Confusion tends to occur when someone is busy burning straw man arguments and jumping through hoops for folks left-and-right.

So, what specifically do you want to ask me or have us talk about?

 

[beachnut]

Yeah, there was an interview with Bin Laden on network TV a year or so before 9/11 where he flat-out said he was preparing to attack the US. It was pretty widely-publicized at the time. I watched the interview and thought to myself "this isn't going to end well". As soon as the second plane hit the morning of 9/11 my first thoughts were "Bin Laden". The only people who don't seem to know about all this are people who were children 14 years ago...or idiots...or, you know, Conspiracy Theorists, who at the time were too busy obsessing over baby-eating shapeshifting Illuminati lizard-people to pay any attention to such unsexy, prosaic things as "current events".

I thought at the second impact he had brought his own planes - I was wrong.

 

[Jango]

I thought at the second impact he had brought his own planes - I was wrong.

Have you flown a plane the size of the ones used on 9/11?

 

[tsig]

Have you flown a plane the size of the ones used on 9/11?

 

[Spanx]

Yep the Truther intelegence agency is working well today.

 

[Oystein]

Have you flown a plane the size of the ones used on 9/11?

beachnut is a former pilot and has indeed flown larger planes. Not sure if quite as large as a 767, but probably 757-size. I seem to remember tanker planes - those KC-135 are variants of the 707, thus slightly smaller than 767.

 

[Jango]

beachnut is a former pilot and has indeed flown larger planes. Not sure if quite as large as a 767, but probably 757-size. I seem to remember tanker planes - those KC-135 are variants of the 707, thus slightly smaller than 767.

Is he the resident plane operator expert or is there someone else?

 

[Oystein]

Is he the resident plane operator expert or is there someone else?

As far as I know, he is, among those still actively posting here, the most experienced, if not only, pilot.

We used to have another member active here, Reheat, who is a former jet fighter pilot, if I remember correctly.

cjnewson is, I think, not a pilot but has collected information regarding the four flights and recreated some of them on simulators and published videos of the experience.

BCR is, in my opinion, the best expert here about flight data (radar and FDR) analysis. He has also researched extensively the ACT and military response.

A Boston Air Traffic Controller who was there on duty on 9/11/2001 is Cheap Shot. He no longer posts, but apparently lurks, and sometimes drops a "hello".

Warren Stutt (don't recall his precise nickname) has a few posts here - he is the expert on FDR analysis, he was the one who analysed the AA77 FDR and found that it contained 4 seconds more readable data that the NTSB missed or ignored; this helped dispel claims that the plane didn't hit the Pentagon.

I think there are others here with some aviation background - including myself, having served on an AWACS flying squadron (though ground personel) in the 90s - but not having solid relevant expertise, just perhaps a somewhat better "feel" for the issue than the average Jill and Joe.

 

[Oystein]

@ Jango: The current discussions here are a mess - split among several threads, conflating several issues and objectives.

Where do you wish to procede?

I'd advise to think about what you actually want to do and achieve here. Basically, in a forum like this, well-formed Opening Posts do one of these three:


1. Positively make a claim of fact, propose a theory. In that case, the burden of evidence is on you, and smart replies will attempt grill you on sources and logic.
2. Ask people a question, to provide you with facts and theories. In that case, the burden of evidence would be on those replying, and you'd be expected to recognize the replies and consider them with an open mind.
3. State opinions, invite others to chime in with theirs

It's always a good idea to be clear what you are stating - assertions, questions, or opinion. And to not conflate them. Also, to not disguise one as the other (loaded questions, innuendo...).


My impression is that your head is spinning - you urgently feel that something is amiss, even terribly wrong, but you can't quite put your finger on it. Exchanges here are marked by multiple occurrences of you (and others) in essence saying "but what about...?" - changing horses in mid-race.


Focus. Tackle one issue at a time. Assert what you think you know already, ask others to help you out where you are yet missing facts and arguments, and be aware to not mistake opinions for evidence. Keep your mind on the topic till resolved. Then adjust your overall picture, identify the next important issue, and concentrate on that.

 

[JayUtah]

Nah. Confusion tends to occur when someone is busy burning straw man arguments and jumping through hoops for folks left-and-right.

Then you shouldn't have any problem reconciling your statements yesterday with the previous statements I quoted. Please do so. Also please explain why you continue to say a mole knew of 9/11 when you have no such evidence.

 

[JayUtah]

So, what specifically do you want to ask me or have us talk about?

Whatever it is you think happened on 9/11. You have come here, resurrected several threads discussing aspects of the 9/11 events, and made yourself look very much like a conspiracy theorist by making (and then nebulously appearing to withdraw) several conspiracy-related claims.

If you have a point, stated it and provide evidence. If you wish to make a claim that things unfolded differently than commonly accepted, make the claim and understand that you have a burden to prove it.

 

[BasqueArch]

The Mole


FBI agent Ed Curran reveals in a 2010 civil suit testimony that the FBI had a mole close to bin Laden .

“The existence of the mole was first disclosed during Curran’s 2010 testimony in support of a lawsuit filed against the FBI by Bassem Youssef, an agent assigned to the terrorism squad in L.A. who had developed and run the mole. “
​

-Only in America-
FBI agent Youssef files a civil suit in 2003 against the FBI alleging discrimination, is still pursuing his lawsuit, and still works at the FBI.

“Youssef, the highest-ranked Arabic speaker in the bureau, accused the FBI of discriminating against him and passing him over for promotion to supervisor despite his skills. ….. The Egyptian-born Youssef filed suit against the FBI in 2003, alleging that the Bureau retaliated against him after he lodged complaints against the counterterrorism unit. In 2008, he told Congress that the FBI was unable to protect the U.S. against a major attack from Middle Eastern terrorists. ….. Youssef remains with the agency and is still pursuing his discrimination claim. “

​

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investigations/fbi-never-revealed-it-had-al-qaeda-mole-who-met-n39076

The mole is killed in 1994 or 1995, before the al Qaeda 9/11 planning.
Chronology of the mole and 9/11:
1) 1993. The FBI recruits the only mole to be directly involved with al Qaeda.

“ ‘It was the only source I know in the bureau where we had a source right in al Qaeda, directly involved,’ Curran told the court, according to excerpts of testimony published by the Washington Times.”​

2) 1994 or 1995. The mole is lured from the FBI by the CIA and sent by the CIA to Bosnia.

“The FBI did not know at the time that its informant had started working for the CIA, or why he had disappeared. His former handler, Bassem Youssef, who by then was working undercover in Los Angeles as a supposed member of al Qaeda, began asking his al Qaeda sources what had become of the driver.”
​

3) 1994 or 1995. The mole is killed in Bosnia by al Qaeda that suspects he is an informant.
4) 1998-1999. Al Qaeda plans the attacks of 9/11. No US mole is present.
5) 2001. 9/11 attacks.
6) 2002-2004. The US continues trying to locate bin Laden. FBI testimony before the 9/11 Commission does not mention they once were successful in planting a mole within al Qaeda and bin Laden.

“Sources told NBC News, however, that they weren’t sure the informant was relevant to the 9/11 Commission, because by 2001 his short, albeit productive, relationship with the U.S. government – and his life – had been over for six years. In a statement, the FBI said that the FBI “made all relevant information available to the 9/11 Commission.”
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/investi...o-met-bin-laden-killed-al-qaeda-bosnia-n39306
​

Jango. And yes, U.S. intelligence (among other intelligence agencies) was aware and had penetrated the "planes operation". The War on Terrorism had already been on-going for 15-16 or so years before 9/11 went down. OBL was being watched by the C.I.A. in 1991. The F.B.I. had a mole beside him starting by 1993. The pleas of ignorance and incompetence post-9/11 flies in the face of pre-9/11 recorded history.

Wrong, or as you would say, a lie. The US intelligence had not penetrated the “planes operation”.

Jango. This is where an alien concept to you comes in -- thinking. The F.B.I. said they never had a mole in al Qaeda, but, yet, they did have a mole inside al Qaeda. Okay, so if they can pony up to one when before it was, 'We've never penetrated their ranks,' who's not to say that one is less than what they had actually accomplished? This is where knowing ones F.B.I. History comes in handy. Either way, the simplest thing to do is ask for more information to close out this rather large unaddressed plot hole in the 9/11 narrative. Is that so bad?

Wrong, or as you would say, a lie. The F.B.I. never said they never had a mole in al Qaeda or that “we’ve never penetrated their ranks.”

Jango[FONT=&quot] …..3. I believe I already covered this -- it is now publicly known that there was an F.B.I. mole in al Qaeda prior to 9/11 whereas the public had been told the F.B.I. wasn't capable of penetrating al Qaeda. That's about the extent before we gotta file some FOI requests. This is simply the way it is, sorry.

[/FONT]

Wrong, or as you would say, a lie. It’s publicly known that there was an FBI mole in al Qaeda because of Youssef’s civil lawsuit. Read the transcripts if you want more information.​

[FONT=&quot]The F.B.I. never told the public that the F.B.I. wasn't capable of penetrating al Qaeda. [/FONT]​

​

“This is where an alien concept to you comes in – thinking.”​

There were no US moles present at the al Qaeda “planes operation.”​

The Mole conspiracy story is a lie.​

​

 

[beachnut]

Have you flown a plane the size of the ones used on 9/11?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_KC-135_Stratotanker I am not an expert, I have flown, and have experience flying; anyone could study flying and correct me, and know more. I have enough experience and knowledge to know 911 truth lies about flight operations on 911. I also know when you supply shallow research on the "mole", and you cherry picked and quote mined what you needed to make up lies about the mole. You don't read sources you supply past the junk you need to make up BS; you don't follow up and dig deeper to supply the whole story which debunks your claims; you read items then make up failed claims without regard to time, sequence or logic.

I had four engines, the 767/757 have two. I could shut down two engines in flight and keep going - further. We would fly from California to England, and I flew from Diego Garcia to Okinawa. The best flight was from Guam to Perth.
Diego to Okinawa... Flew the first night of Desert Storm.

We usually took off at weights similar to the gross weights the flight on 911 were at. I also was trained to supervise and conduct aircraft accident investigations. I found the pilots for truth to be extremely "nuts" (as in disrespectful, ignorant, liars, idiots, etc) since I have flown, instructed, evaluated and investigated as pertains to flight. When 911 truth lies about pilots can't hit 200 foot or 900 foot wide targets, all I have to do is remember flight training. I don't know of any pilots in initial training who could not hit the runway, even the ones who washed out could hit the runway, or get close enough to hit; but the washed out pilots could not do it on speed (landing speed must be exact, not much margin), or at the correct course (might run off the side of the runway); all the pilots who washed out were could hit the runway.
The USAF will wash you out if you can't get a subject area correct in 3 or 4 flights; where as civil pilots with money can keep trying; as long as they pay.
The old can't fly big planes the first time, such a crock; my first flight in the big plane, I landed on speed, on course, first time, perfect landing - first flight. And all the terrorists had to was crash.

You have not posted evidence for your claims; go back and read the questions and add your sources and evidence. Read your sources completely before jumping to fake conclusions.

 

[LSSBB]

Flew the first night of Desert Storm.

I was involved with tracking you and providing ATC. USS Worden, CG-18, alternate AAWC for northern gulf for Desert Storm kickoff.

 

[Oystein]

I was involved with tracking you and providing ATC. USS Worden, CG-18, alternate AAWC for northern gulf for Desert Storm kickoff.

I was baking cookies for the anti-war protesters camping on the campus lawn

 

[paloalto]

CIA had a Bin Laden unit called Alec Station, NSA monitored the Yemen hub and FBI ran the Cole investigation.

How was it even possible NOT to find out about the 9/11 attacks and prevent it from happening? Especially when the whole intelligence community "knew" OBL was responsible only a couple of hours after the attack.

It is also interesting that Michael F. Scheuer left Alec Station in 1999 but came back right after the attacks as a supervisor.

It wasn't possible that the CIA and FBI HQ did not know about these attacks. There is now much evidence today that shows that the CIA and FBI HQ knew all about these attacks that were going to take place on 9/11. The following is information I posted in the JREF 9/11 blog, "deliberate obstruction by the CIA of the pre-9/11 [FBI criminal] investigations":

From post #624:

The information in the post comes from facts listed with the following sources:

The fact that the CIA was told on June 12, 2001 “that the person directing the huge al Qaeda terrorist attack just about to take place inside of the US was Khalid Sheik Mohammed, and that Mohammed was recruiting many al Qaeda terrorists to be sent into the US in the summer of 2001, to link up with other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US” is found in the 9/11 Commission report.

The fact that the CIA knew that the other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US, who were going to link up with the al Qaeda terrorists being recruited by Khalid Sheik Mohammed, were Nawaf al-Hazmi and [later] Khalid al-Mihdhar, was due to the fact that the only al Qaeda terrorists that the CIA was aware that were inside of the US were Nawaf al-Hazmi, by August 22, 2001 Khalid al-Mihdhar, and Zacarias Moussaoui. But Moussaoui had been arrested by the middle of August 2001. [After] both Nawaf al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Mihdhar were found to be inside of the US on August 22, 2001[by the CIA], the CIA would have known for sure that these were indeed the “other al Qaeda terrorists already inside of the US” who were going to take part in this huge attack the CIA had been getting warnings about since April 2001.

Cofer Black identified the unit that had received the warning that Khalid Sheik Mohammed was directing this huge al Qaeda terrorist attack after the release of the 9/11 Commission report. He stated that this information was stove piped in this Rendition unit. But we know from Ken Silverstein’s article in the Harpers January 2007 issue, that Richard Blee was the chief of the CIA Renditions unit in addition to being Chief of the CIA Bin Laden unit. And from this article we learn that Cofer Black and Richard Blee were very close, so it is inconceivable that Blee do not tell his close friend about the Khalid Sheik Mohammed information. Black and Tenet were also very close, hence this information would have gone directly from Black to Tenet.

The information on the Bojinka plot can be found in main stream media articles that are located in the 9/11 Time Line by Paul Thompson. These articles describe Philippine intelligence as having obtained this Bojinka plot information off of Hakim Murad’s computer. Hakim was working with Khalid Sheik Mohammed in this plot.

The information that “They were also clearly aware that Khalid Sheik Mohammed had been photographed at the Kuala Lumpur meeting while he stayed right at the condominium where Mihdhar and Hazmi also stayed”, is found in the Guantanamo charge sheet for Hambali, a famous Indonesian terrorist closely connected to al Qaeda. This charge sheet was snuck out of Guantanamo and given to Wikileaks who gave it to the New York Times in May 2011. Why this information did not make front page news I will never know. Had this information come out during the 9/11 public hearings many high level people at the CIA would have been replaced, if not sent to prison. This information shows that the CIA observed the actual meeting where the planning for the attacks on 9/11 and even the attack on the Cole had taken place and then hid this information from the very people who were capable of preventing this huge attack from taking place, the FBI criminal investigators on the Cole bombing investigation.

Notice how difficult it was to gather all of this information in one place. You had to use the 9/11 Commission report and then aggregate that with information that the CIA knew about Mihdhar and Hazmi from the DOJ IG report and then use the Time Line to get information on the Bojinka plot and then combine that with the Wikileaks document from the New York Times web site. There is no single document other than a few books where this information appears in one place. Also notice that this is just small part of the account on 9/11 and is but one of a large number of parts for the account of 9/11. This same search had to be done for each one of these many parts through thousands and thousands of pages of government reports on 9/11 largely taken from the US government investigations that described the events that had taken place at the CIA and FBI HQ prior to 9/11.

But after having this information, that Mihdhar and Hazmi were going to take part in hijacking aircraft that would be flown into the World Trade Center Towers, the Pentagon and the US Capital building, FBI HQ under orders from the CIA shut down the FBI criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, even when both the CIA and the FBI HQ knew that shutting down this investigation would allow this huge al Qaeda terrorist attack to take place killing thousands of Americans.