How can the world forgive Germany?

Monketey Ghost said:
Alvy Singer: "You know, I was having lunch with some guys from NBC, so I said, 'Did you eat yet or what?' And Tom Christie said, 'No, JEW?' Not 'Did you?'...JEW eat? JEW? You get it? JEW eat?"

But seriously, the world has been cruelly evil to the Jew. Many are humorous about it, and many are stoic.
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You see Monketey Ghost, it is all quite the puzzle to me. You mentioned that you are 'not a Jew' and Lose Leader mentions he/she 'is a Jew', but I don;t even understand what that means either way. What is a 'Jew'?

Thing is, as you are showing in the OP, we are all in some way affected by the ripple effect of what Hitler certain personalities, science and patriotism can achieve in the negative.

Science was misused, and while it is argued that Hitler was a 'Christian' (thus bringing religion into the fray) the whole thing was largely a move against religion, specifically Jewish and Christian.

We seem to be discovering the probability that Jew have been lying about the idea of what god is for a terribly long time already, and finding the source of their stories in other cultures already established in their settlements - while the Jews continued exploring the earth and picking up on all these cultural similarities and taking advantage of the knowledge of that data gained through travel and simulation.

The results ended up being a 'one god' complex but with benefits to those spreading the word.

Thus the word was spread and adapted by Islam.

Meanwhile back at the start of scientific discovery and manipulative engineering - amplification gave man a god-like voice to project and who was their to stand before mic?

The big A.

Oh the wonder of it all!

It needs to be understood before forgiveness can be contemplated for real.

Science has been behind the whole move, blaming religion for the failure of humanity and especially 'the Jew' - and seeking always to find ways to harness human energy for its own ends.

We fly to the stars in Nazi inspired rockets.

Only...not really. It is all in our minds as a sort of romantic fantasy that we will 'get their' one day and proceed with the task of owning it all.

On the other hand we are told by science that we are nothing more than a delusion illusion.

So religion told us we are slightly something more than that...so religion is more user friendly but unfortunately the god it gave us isn't.

And what I don't quite understand yet is why I have this profound love for it all.

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Von Braun's rockets were derivatives of the work of Robert Hutchings Goddard (October 5, 1882 – August 10, 1945) was an American professor, physicist, and inventor who is credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket,[1][2] which he successfully launched on March 16, 1926. Goddard and his team launched 34 rockets[3] between 1926 and 1941, achieving altitudes as high as 2.6 km (1.6 mi) and speeds as high as 885 km/h (550 mph).[3]
 
I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the World at War but at Ohrdruf Patten made the mayor and his wife visit the camp and bury bodies. They did, then went home and hanged themselves. Their suicide note read "We didn't know. But we knew".
As a species we're very good at not facing uncomfortable truths. Could it be repeated elsewhere? I dropped contact with a friend who was in the English Defence League after telling him that seeing his friends post comments praising the Gestapo and Waffen SS tactics in Russia and how we should do the same in muslim enclaves in the UK made me feel at one with my grandfathers. Their attitude to nazis was .303 Lee Enfield. You want to have a class of people? Then hate nazis, and people who think like them, of any nationality, race, colour, religion whatever.
 
I Ratant said:
Von Braun's rockets were derivatives of the work of Robert Hutchings Goddard (October 5, 1882 – August 10, 1945) was an American professor, physicist, and inventor who is credited with creating and building the world's first liquid-fueled rocket,[1][2] which he successfully launched on March 16, 1926. Goddard and his team launched 34 rockets[3] between 1926 and 1941, achieving altitudes as high as 2.6 km (1.6 mi) and speeds as high as 885 km/h (550 mph).[3]
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Sure credit to a non Nazi for the invention but the facts remain that Nazi scientists took science and applied it to weapons of mass destruction which in turn was developed by Russia and America using those scientists to create even bigger weapons of mass destruction.
 
Wudang said:
I'm pretty sure it's mentioned in the World at War but at Ohrdruf Patten made the mayor and his wife visit the camp and bury bodies. They did, then went home and hanged themselves. Their suicide note read "We didn't know. But we knew".
As a species we're very good at not facing uncomfortable truths. Could it be repeated elsewhere? I dropped contact with a friend who was in the English Defence League after telling him that seeing his friends post comments praising the Gestapo and Waffen SS tactics in Russia and how we should do the same in muslim enclaves in the UK made me feel at one with my grandfathers. Their attitude to nazis was .303 Lee Enfield. You want to have a class of people? Then hate nazis, and people who think like them, of any nationality, race, colour, religion whatever.
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We are breed and then educated that way - not to face uncomfortable truths.

There is no point in hating if it means not having to face uncomfortable truths. The actions of fascism are easiest seen looking at 'the other' and hating that. Like how Russia and America faced off.

The means does not so much justify the end as it does set out a path that is extremely difficult to deviate from without having to to face uncomfortable truths.
 
Navigator said:
This is pertinent and is another good reason to cease responding to the perpetual Jewish victim mentality as if somehow the terrible things done to them then are vitally distinguishable from the things humans have done to each other as a manifestation of dominance and control over the weaker positioned races.

...snip...
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I'm the last person who'd want to compare genocides and ask which one was the worst. They were all the worst, each was unique.

But this thread is about the holocaust, and if I'm reading Navigator right, she seems to be struggling with certain issues that should be addressed. So let's review a few of the things that made the holocaust unique, and why the Jews (and many other targeted groups) might want to keep reminding us of it.

As far as I'm aware, the holocaust is the only genocide...

1. perpetrated by the elected government of a first world country in modern times

2. was carried out on an industrial, assemblyline scale

3. required ordinary, work-a-day people to sustain it

4. had the most meticulous documentation of any genocide, before or since, yet still supports vocal subpopulations that deny it ever happened. Including presidents of foreign countries.

5. has vocal subpopulations (skinheads, neo-nazis, etc.) that continue to glorify its excesses in parades down Main St.

Now, I know a guy who has a prominent role in the holocaust museum in Washington. He's a pretty well-off Jew--nice, comfortable life. He doesn't want your pity, doesn't need a hand-out. He's not interested in playing some "victim card." He just wants you to remember.

He wants this of you because to forget would be to invite its recurrence. It would be to let the deniers and bigots and history-rewriting fascists have a "win." It would be to lose the one thing the atrocities gave us -- a brutal understanding of how low humans can sink. As Monketey Ghost has realized, this is a harrowing and excrutiating reality to confront.

But to forget it would be worse.
 
Ryan O'Dine said:
He wants this of you because to forget would be to invite its recurrence. It would be to let the deniers and bigots and history-rewriting fascists have a "win." It would be to lose the one thing the atrocities gave us -- a brutal understanding of how low humans can sink. As Monketey Ghost has realized, this is a harrowing and excrutiating reality to confront.

But to forget it would be worse.
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No one is saying anything about forgetting.

Forgiving is the focus of the subject.

If we had access to documentation carefully kept from the past genocide Jews have committed against others, we would not be so easily able to forget those things either.

Indeed, we have such documentation, presumably true but minus the exact details and images.

As has been mentioned, sure the Jews don't want the world to forget but is it because they don;t want to see it happening again to any race?
The answer should be 'yes' but Palestine has also been mentioned in the light of irony and how Israel chooses to deal with its neighbors.

To be sure, that seems to be an age old battle of mutual hatred but show me the evidence that Jews have learned empathy for those finding themselves in powerless positions, based on 'not forgetting' the suffering that position forces upon the weaker.


Never mind the few ratbags running around spewing old hate in the name of 'Nazi' - how has the memory being kept alive helped the Jew understand and have compassion for their neighbors?

Or is that just a Christian convenience which is irrelevant to the Jew and the Jewish idea of what god is?

Or should we forget that the Jew gave the world that idea of god and that idea that the Jew is special - more special than any other human being?
 
Navigator said:
No one is saying anything about forgetting.

Forgiving is the focus of the subject.

snip...
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If sticking to the subject is important to you, then perhaps we should leave the Palestinians out of it. Perhaps we should leave "Jews created God" out of it. Perhaps we should be talking about how to forgive Germany, rather than seeking ever more reasons for condemning the Jews.
 
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erwinl said:
On the other hand the writer also remarks upon the history of Germany (the Luther to Hitler thesis) where it is written that the German people were especially susceptible to a totaliarian regime as eventually rose up. Until the Weimar republic never having had a truly democratic government.
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I'm partial to this thesis.
Rolfe said:
By realising that the Germans are very like us indeed, and that what happened there could very easily happen to us the same way. And that's why knee-jerk shouts of "Godwin!" can be a problem.
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Years, decades or centuries of culture and political institutions can make one country more susceptible to such horrors than another.

Rolfe said:
By realising that nobody alive in Germany today participated in any of that, and on the contrary most ordinary people are deeply ashamed of what happened. To the point where Germany is probably the least likely country for anything like that to happen in again.

By visiting Germany and meeting and talking to German people, as real people. By visiting their wonderful historical sites and learning about their rich cultural heritage going back many centuries.

By staying with German people in their own homes, and by preparing to welcome them into my home later this year (this is in my case, an exchange visit with a choir in the wonderful town of Wurzburg).

We must never forget the lesson, but we and the world will be a poorer place if we harbour anger and bitterness to a nation that once again are just people very like us. And the place to apply the lesson may be a lot closer to home than Germany.

Rolfe.
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This. I lived in Germany in the early 1990s. In 1995, 50 years after the end of WW2, there was a documentary on WW2 or on the Nazi regime every night on public TV. Scrap that, one on each channel per night. The Germans of today are very much aware of the Nazi horror in their history and may be, because of this, the least likely to perpetrate such a horror again.

BTW, which historic sites? I mean, which hasn't been bombed out and carefully restored?
 
I Ratant said:
The formal occupation of West Germany halted in late '52 or so.
It was in pretty good shape then, compared to the conditions we saw in 1950 when we got there.
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[nitpick] De facto, yes. Formally, the occupation only ended with the Four-plus-Two Treaty in 1990. ;)
 
Damien Evans said:
How many countries even had universal male and female suffrage prior to 1920? I know Australia and New Zealand did, and Norway as well, but I can't think of any others.
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The Netherlands had universal male suffrage in 1917 and universal female suffrage in 1919. There must be more countries. Actually, the first elections of the Weimar Republic in 1919 also had universal (male and female) suffrage.
 
Damien Evans said:
How many countries even had universal male and female suffrage prior to 1920? I know Australia and New Zealand did, and Norway as well, but I can't think of any others.
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In 1906 Finland became the second country in the world and the first in Europe to introduce universal suffrage. In the following 1907 parliamentary elections world's first female MPs were elected (19 of 200 MPs).
 
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