How can the world forgive Germany?

Monketey Ghost said:
I should say, my revulsion is fresh from seeing the video of the bodies. The hangings of resistance fighters, the gas chambers, the pits filled with executed people, watching lines of people being shot and falling into them, the roundups, even when Germany didn't have the materiel to continue the war, it was a lost cause, and still they rushed to exterminate people.
I suppose I've learned something in this thread I already knew- forgiveness must happen. There really isn't any other choice.

But damn.
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Yeah, I hear that.

At this point, would you say that your focus in this thread is more about the need for forgiveness and the process by which it occurs, or is it more about the enormity of what the German people acquiesced to and participated in under Nazi rule and how that circumstance came about?
 
Monketey Ghost said:
It's disturbing in exactly that way. Lots of atrocity photos.

I've studied WW2, the battles and such, but have always avoided watching this sort of documentary for just this reason.
Scores of hangings, videos of head-shot victims collapsing, thousands of bodies. Combat video, an amazing amount of combat video taken by both sides.

Overall, horrific. Bodies partially buried by collapsed buildings, etc.
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And NO, I am not just going for guilt trip and shame here, I am asking reasonably:

Why do you feel the need to look over such atrocities in such details? Why are you consumed with this misery and horror? If this is what you enjoy, then just keep looking but, why spread it around on a planet that needs new ways of looking at things, not old, tired, and failed ways?

Why, of all the subjects on this Earth, do you study this?
 
Monketey Ghost said:
In another thread I'd mentioned watching the series The World at War.

It's appalling what the Nazis did, in every country they occupied. It's horrible that so many German citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it.

I understand that an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better.

But the systematic atrocities. The infrastructure and bureaucracy built to carry out those atrocities.

Combined with the war just two decades gone by... how can the world ever forgive the German people??
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Watching CNN it is appalling what the U.S. has done in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. It is horrible that so many American citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it ($20 a barrel oil anyone).

How can the world ever forgive America?


Just sayin'

IXP
 
How can the world forgive Russia for the crimes of the Stalin regime?
We can go on forever.Question is if the country in question learned it lesson.
Germany seems to have done so,but Russia,consdiering the revival in militant Russian nationalism we are seeing,I am not so sure about.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
In another thread I'd mentioned watching the series The World at War.

It's appalling what the Nazis did, in every country they occupied. It's horrible that so many German citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it.

I understand that an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better.

But the systematic atrocities. The infrastructure and bureaucracy built to carry out those atrocities.

Combined with the war just two decades gone by... how can the world ever forgive the German people??
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I'm pretty amazed at this OP, and I find it quite sad that people are still saying this kind of thing.

I have to accuse the OP in return of getting some kind of unearned sense of self-righteousness for having not been born German.

I think it comes down to a kind of sanctimoniousness that is also common in the "Shame on the kiddy-fiddling Catholics!", "Shame on the suicide death-cult Muzzies!" and "Shame on the Americans for napalming Viet Nam!"

Also, although you meant this in mitigation, it is not really true that "an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better." given that the Nazis only took power in 1933 and anti-Jewish laws came in almost immediately.

I think by now that a more dispassionate examination of history, without the histrionics, is in order.
 
angrysoba said:
I think by now that a more dispassionate examination of history, without the histrionics, is in order.
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That would be a good start.

But the easiest way to get over what happened would be to travel to Germany to see that they really are just like everybody else.

That will tend to make one feel better about the Germans and uneasy about the nature of the human race in general.
 
I was contemplating suggesting the power of a brilliant orator to influence his audience was a dangerous thing before slipping in that I was talking about Lawrence Olivier. But that might have been a bit crass.



Makes you think, though. He is spellbinding. I mean the facts are deeply harrowing by themselves, but the narration really breaks your heart.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
In another thread I'd mentioned watching the series The World at War.

It's appalling what the Nazis did, in every country they occupied. It's horrible that so many German citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it.

I understand that an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better.

But the systematic atrocities. The infrastructure and bureaucracy built to carry out those atrocities.

Combined with the war just two decades gone by... how can the world ever forgive the German people??
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Most of those who did that are dead/dying. Many Germans (not enough, but...)did not do it and a number tried to help do the right things - and a number were tortured and died for doing so. It's pretty much never everybody who drinks the Kool-Aid.........And that part needs to be remembered too. I suggest this as a start:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophie_Scholl (W18-bocd)
 
IXP said:
Watching CNN it is appalling what the U.S. has done in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. It is horrible that so many American citizens ignored it, or were happy to benefit from it ($20 a barrel oil anyone).

How can the world ever forgive America?


Just sayin'

IXP
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Speaking of Vietnam, I ordered some parts for an r/c helicopter from a company in Canuckia... the parts came from HO CHI CITY... which we had called Saigon.
Capitalism is alive and thriving there.
ST gets her nails done at a Vietnamese nail parlor here, which has a live feed from Ho Chi Minh city.. amazingly, there is still the Saigon Zoo there! Not been renamed, looking at the signs.
 
fuelair said:
That and the Great Depression - which was terrible in it's effects in Germany.
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.
I had a stamp book with German stamps from that era... Incredible prices..
1 million marks for A STAMP!
People took wheelbarrow loads of paper currency to the market, and the value of the paper changed day to day!
 
angrysoba said:
I'm pretty amazed at this OP, and I find it quite sad that people are still saying this kind of thing.

I have to accuse the OP in return of getting some kind of unearned sense of self-righteousness for having not been born German.

I think it comes down to a kind of sanctimoniousness that is also common in the "Shame on the kiddy-fiddling Catholics!", "Shame on the suicide death-cult Muzzies!" and "Shame on the Americans for napalming Viet Nam!"

Also, although you meant this in mitigation, it is not really true that "an entire generation had been conditioned by Nazi propaganda to think Jewish people inferior, and the German people naturally better." given that the Nazis only took power in 1933 and anti-Jewish laws came in almost immediately.

I think by now that a more dispassionate examination of history, without the histrionics, is in order.
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The doc was quite clear that there was plenty of anti-Semitic feeling in Germany before Hitler came to power, and was gobbled up whole when Hitler instituted his policies- which were laid out very clearly in Mein Kampf, written quite a while before he came to power.

I'll address more of these posts tomorrow.
 
I Ratant said:
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I had a stamp book with German stamps from that era... Incredible prices..
1 million marks for A STAMP!
People took wheelbarrow loads of paper currency to the market, and the value of the paper changed day to day!
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People got paid twice a day, and went out to spend their pay at lunch time to keep it from be worthless by quitting time.
 
Monketey Ghost said:
The doc was quite clear that there was plenty of anti-Semitic feeling in Germany Europe before Hitler came to power, and was gobbled up whole when Hitler instituted his policies- which were laid out very clearly in Mein Kampf, written quite a while before he came to power.

I'll address more of these posts tomorrow.
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ftfy..
That's why the camps were quickly filled with Jews (among others) from every country the Germans occupied... mostly with the approval of the collaborative governments they installed.
 
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Monketey Ghost said:
I should say, my revulsion is fresh from seeing the video of the bodies. The hangings of resistance fighters, the gas chambers, the pits filled with executed people, watching lines of people being shot and falling into them, the roundups, even when Germany didn't have the materiel to continue the war, it was a lost cause, and still they rushed to exterminate people.
I suppose I've learned something in this thread I already knew- forgiveness must happen. There really isn't any other choice.

But damn.
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MG--I would suggest that you do not visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington or the Holocaust exhibit at the Imperial War Museum in London. They will definitely leave you looking for a Fascist so you can punch them in face as hard as you can (They made me feel that way, and I haven't been in a fight since I was 12).

I was struck hardest by a quote in the London exhibit from the noted newsman Edward R. Murrow during his report from Buchenwald right after it was liberated:
I pray you to believe what I have said about Buchenwald. I reported what I saw and heard, but only part of it. For most of it, I have no words.
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More about forgiveness. It is pretty clear from the historical record that clans, tribes, City-states, Empires, Nation-states, what have you, will almost always identify people as 'one of us' or 'one of them'. And what you would never consider doing to 'one of us' is something that is easy to consider doing to 'one of them'. It has Happened everywhere, throughout time, in all areas of the world. Might be race, religion, tribal allegiance, or someone else has something your group wants (land, water, gold, etc.). Us versus "them", and whatever we/you do to them is OK, because "they" deserve it.

What I am trying to say is that humanity has a long history of inhumanity. After all, 1 in 3 Germans died in the course of the 30 Years War--much worse than any country in WWI or WWII.

But there are signs we're getting better.

Germany today (indeed most of Europe) now more closely identifies with a common European grouping--not that Nationalism and prejudice are dead, mind you, but I sense that most Euros now see their neighbors as part of the 'one of them' rather than 'the others'. It is still a new feeling and one that still has a lot to grow (see Balkans), but it's a start.

Maybe we can figure out that we're all 'one of us' sometime in the future.

Or maybe not. Humanity is a strange and stubborn beast.

"You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one"

IMHO as always. YMMV
 
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