How can science accommodate the supernatural?

But what methods do we use to determine whether a specific method does what it says? We start out with a method, a method that (completely coincidentally) matches science perfectly.

'Science' is what we mean when we talk about the search for truth.

Well I'd say you keep trying different ideas out (and I'd maintain human recorded history shows that is exactly what has happened over thousands of years), and the one(s) that worked are the one(s) that kept surviving and with the perspective of today we throw the label of "science" at the remaining one.
 
As most people do: "Did what it said it would do"
Yes, yes, yes, but how did you actually determine that?

If you want to know whether astrology works, and so you go to your pastor and ask him, and he says it doesn't, have you determined whether astrology works?
 
I really don't know how else to put it.

Try it this way, a 1000 years ago my greatly-granddad needed to go on a round-trip forage of 6 days to get food for his family, so did his friend. Now my greatly-granddad used a technique he learned from his granddad, that you make a note how many cups of water you needed everyday to survive on a foraging expedition and add them up for each day your march will take you. So he decided to take 12 cups of water with him. Now his friend who was also going on the march used a different technique that said he would only need 4 cups of water for the whole trip.

My greatly-granddad returned from the trip with food, his friend didn't, everyone listened to my greatly-grandfather and decided to use his technique in the future because it worked.
 
Drkitten said:
Again, lack of understanding [of libertarian free will] on your part is not a disproof of its existence.
Try me again. Explain libertarian free will, which apparently has a component that is neither deterministic nor random. If you can enlighten me, you will be the first.

~~ Paul
 
My greatly-granddad returned from the trip with food, his friend didn't, everyone listened to my greatly-grandfather and decided to use his technique in the future because it worked.
Was that because his method was better, or because he lucked out?

Did those people define "working" as "whatever the shaman says", or defined it in terms of observations of the phenomenon in question.
 
Was that because his method was better, or because he lucked out?

Did those people define "working" as "whatever the shaman says", or defined it in terms of observations of the phenomenon in question.

I'm sorry but if you don't understand what "worked" means given my attempt to illustrate it in my little parable then I do not know how to communicate how I use the word to you. So we'll have to leave the point unsettled.
 
I'm sorry but if you don't understand what "worked" means given my attempt to illustrate it in my little parable then I do not know how to communicate how I use the word to you. So we'll have to leave the point unsettled.
Ah, but that's precisely my point. It's obvious to you that's there's only one way to talk about "what worked" - whatever best permits us to deal with the objective world. That intuitively obvious way is the foundation of science. Once you accept that you need to check and test your conclusions, you're there.
 
"What works" as a guideline requires no belief in an objective world.
Yes, it does. If you believe otherwise, your perceptions define what you consider "working" to be, and you can simply declare whatever solution you wish to be the correct one. Adaptiveness requires the acknowledgement that the world is, and is real, and will decide for itself.
 
Yes, it does. If you believe otherwise, your perceptions define what you consider "working" to be, and you can simply declare whatever solution you wish to be the correct one. Adaptiveness requires the acknowledgement that the world is, and is real, and will decide for itself.

No it doesn't, "what works" works ;) as well for someone who believes in a form of idealism as it does for someone who beliefs in a form of materialism. It requires no "objective" underpinnings. It also doesn't require that reality is consistent or follows logic.

Personally I think that is why science has proved itself because fundamentally it doesn't matter what the underlying "architecture" of reality "is" (if those terms used in this context even have any real meaning) for a system based on "does/did it work or not".
 
It also doesn't require that reality is consistent or follows logic.
If it's not consistent, and it doesn't follow logic, you have no reason to believe that a strategy that paid off once will pay off again. You can't even ask "did it work?", because you have no way to answer the question.
 
It also doesn't require that reality is consistent or follows logic.

Yes it does. If your greatly-grandpa comes back alive because he took 12 cups of water, and then every who emulates him dies of myxomatosis or mange or mumps, then "it works" kind of loses its value.
 
Sorry, Paul. This will take a while. I just tuned in, but we're already on post #55. I have some catching up to do.
 
Just some brief, disorganized, thoughts. (As opposed to my usual lengthy disorganized thoughts.)

The arguments in Stimpy's epistemology assert naturalism as an axiom. That's all well and good, I don't have any problem asserting it as an axiom, but there are an awful lot of people who don't accept that axiom, and there is no particular reason to accept it. If God can alter the real world, for example by striking me dead for eating pork, then he is real, but he doesn't operate by natural law.

Divine intervention - intervention by the divine? Let me try something different. Divine intervention is the alteration of a physical object in a manner that is not describable in terms of natural law, but is in accordance with the will of a spiritual entity. Divine intervention always involves a violation of natural law. (Otherwise, there wouldn't be any "intervention" would there? If we had a deistic deity that created the world and then just let it run, things would happen according to divine will, but not by divine intervention.)

One way to answer how science can accommodate the supernatural would be to ask one Mr. James Randi under what circumstances he would give someone one million dollars. I contend that he is making a legitimate offer that is at least theoretically possible to win.

Perhaps tomorrow, I can offer something more organized.
 
I don't really grasp what is being said here. I am interested but lacking in language skills to understand what is being proposed. Let me try to point out my perspective and someone try to figure out how to bring me up to speed. If there is a supernatural anything , in order for us to even suspect it , that supernatural force must cause changes that we can observe and test. If not there is no reason to suspect there is any supernatural forces. Did I miss anything?
 
If it's not consistent, and it doesn't follow logic, you have no reason to believe that a strategy that paid off once will pay off again. You can't even ask "did it work?", because you have no way to answer the question.

No it doesn't since then all you would find is that "did it work" is answered with a "no".

Your objection requires you to initially assume logic and consistency is somehow "right" and whilst they are sensible assumptions they are not required assumptions to develop a system based on "does it work?"
 
Yes it does. If your greatly-grandpa comes back alive because he took 12 cups of water, and then every who emulates him dies of myxomatosis or mange or mumps, then "it works" kind of loses its value.

No it doesn't because the answer to "Did it work?" is then "no". And in fact I would say this is the reason why it took so long for humans to start developing any type of "system" that ever stood a chance of being able to answer the other very important question "Will it work?"
 
To heck with it. I'm going to remain disorganized. It's more fun.

I think the "new definition" of science is actually better than the old definition. In fact, it isn't a new definition at all. It's an elaboration of what my dictionary says science is.

The OP asked:
I want to know (a) how divine intervention is different from normal naturalistic activity; and (b) how science can study it.

The short answer is that divine intervention, or any supernatural intervention, cannot be described by "laws". While it might follow trends, it cannot be predicted with certainty, because it is the result of intentional action, not "laws".

(For those who haven't followed my previous postings, I don't actually see any evidence that there is a divine, or that it ever intervenes. I'm an atheist, too, but I don't rule out the possibility that such a thing could happen. If it did happen, it could leave evidence.)

For example, if my wife suddenly turned into a pillar of salt, I would take that as evidence of divine intervention. I know a little bit about salt, and about human physiology. I am fairly confident that there are no laws that operate in the real world which would replace the constituent molecules of a human body with an equal volume of salt crystals. If such a thing happened, I would say that a violation of natural law had taken place.

Science cannot find "laws" that will describe under exactly what circumstances spouses will become crystalline. However, science can analyse the effects of that intervention. You could see a before and after photograph that showed a normal female form, followed by a pillar of salt. You could use chemistry to determine the chemical composition of the salt. If you did all that, and convinced yourself that at one time there really was a normal human female present, and that a moment later, there really was a pillar of salt, you would have a very strong case that some sort of supernatural phenomenon had taken place.

Of course, there is always the possibility that you had missed some sort of natural law that allowed for salt substitution, and that in the future, scientific knowledge would increase, and you would find a perfectly natural explanation for spontaneous crystallization. At that point, science would have advanced, and you would realize how naive you had been before. I'll be discussing this later with respect to the scientific theory of Kashrut, but for now, I need to go to work.
 

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