How can a nuclear power plant create a hydrogen explosion?

[Craig4]

And the reply to that could be: "And that, dear Homer, is why you still have to pay for electricity."

And then Homer says: "Yes, the Laws of Thermodynamics are immutable."

And the lady teaches Homer a lesson: "No my dear, the Laws of Thermodynamics make the energy companies wealthy, not because they are immutable, but because the knowledge about how to break them is still a tightly held secret."

Explain how this works to me. Use the big words and show your work. By work, I want to see the math.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Explain how this works to me. Use the big words and show your work. By work, I want to see the math.

 

[Craig4]

[qimg]http://i56.tinypic.com/ofydjk.gif[/qimg]

Please feel free to explain this to the group.

 

[Anders Lindman]

Please feel free to explain this to the group.

E is the amount of zero point energy in one cubic meter of space in Joule. The right hand side of the equation is a summation of the energy in all discrete elements of that volume of space.

The size of the discrete volume elements is determined by ℓ_P which is the Planck length constant. In one cubic meter of space, the number of elements is the number of smallest sized lengths to the power of three (for the volume). The smallest possible size is where the quantum effects overtake the macroscopic effects, which is determined by the Planck length constant.

The energy E is calculated from mass times meters squared per seconds squared. The Planck constants determine the energy of each discrete volume; m_p = Planck mass, ℓ_P = Planck length, and t_P = Planck time.

 

[Andy_Ross]

So some guy posting on the internet knows this but all the worlds scientists don't because some power company somewhere keeps it secret?

Cool.

 

[Dave Rogers]

E is the amount of zero point energy in one cubic meter of space in Joule. The right hand side of the equation is a summation of the energy in all discrete elements of that volume of space.

The sharp-eyed will note that, for any part of this energy to be extracted, the zero-point energy remaining after extraction would then be less than the above value. If the equation is correct, then this would be a physical impossibility. The concept of extraction of zero-point energy is, therefore, self-debunking; zero-point energy cannot be extracted by definition.

Dave

 

[Anders Lindman]

The sharp-eyed will note that, for any part of this energy to be extracted, the zero-point energy remaining after extraction would then be less than the above value. If the equation is correct, then this would be a physical impossibility. The concept of extraction of zero-point energy is, therefore, self-debunking; zero-point energy cannot be extracted by definition.

Dave

"Tom Valone, PhD, Speaks on Zero-point Energy Extraction from the Quantum Vacuum

In a talk titled “Feasibility of Zero-point Energy Extraction from the Quantum Vacuum for Useful Work”, Dr. Valone reviewed what ZPE is and how it is being used.
...
Dr. Valone described the Casimir Effect, and how it can be used to tap ZPE. This is the slight attraction seen in metal plates when placed very close (atomic distances) to each other. The attraction can be shown to come from ZPE. Valone cites evidence that the ZPE is not conserved, and does not follow the normal laws of energy conservation."

Full article: http://www.pureenergysystems.com/ev...LC/TomValone/ZPE_Extraction_QuantumVacuum.htm

 

[Dave Rogers]

"Tom Valone, PhD, Speaks on Zero-point Energy Extraction from the Quantum Vacuum"

So you found another nutter who agrees with you. Big deal.

Dave

 

[Anders Lindman]

So some guy posting on the internet knows this but all the worlds scientists don't because some power company somewhere keeps it secret?

Cool.

To be honest, the equation is a bit of a shot from the hip. My idea was that since the Planck length determines a lower bound to physical proper length in any space-time, it also sets the limit for all kinds of physical events on a macroscopic level (ordinary physical events).

Using the Planck constants, a minimum macroscopic energy level is calculated, which also sets the maximum energy for the zero point field in a discrete volume of space with the dimension/diameter of 1 Planck length (very tiny volume).

The zero point field is a result of quantum effects on scales smaller than possible physical macroscopic events. However, all particles are still affected by the quantum fluctuations. An analogy would be an analog signal that is being digitized. A very small signal will when digitized result in only zeros, but if enough random noise is added, the digitized result will pick up the signal, such as shown in this image: http://zone.ni.com/cms/images/devzone/tut/a/5781be30440.gif

 

[Dave Rogers]

Using the Planck constants, a minimum macroscopic energy level is calculated, which also sets the maximum energy for the zero point field in a discrete volume of space with the dimension/diameter of 1 Planck length (very tiny volume).

You mean the minimum energy for the zero point field. And, since it's a minimum, the volume of space can't contain any less than that, which means that you can't take any of it out. That's what I mean when I say that ZPE is, by definition, impossible; it requires that the value for ZPE is an inviolable limit except when you don't want it to be.

Dave

 

[Anders Lindman]

So you found another nutter who agrees with you. Big deal.

Dave

More sources: http://ecee.colorado.edu/~moddel/QEL/ZPE.html

 

[Anders Lindman]

You mean the minimum energy for the zero point field. And, since it's a minimum, the volume of space can't contain any less than that, which means that you can't take any of it out. That's what I mean when I say that ZPE is, by definition, impossible; it requires that the value for ZPE is an inviolable limit except when you don't want it to be.

Dave

Minimum energy 'quantum' that can exist on the macroscopic level (such as for ordinary physical particles), but maximum zero point energy in a volume of space with the Planck length dimension.

If we take empty space at zero degree Kelvin, then it contains zero macroscopic energy. This is because even if the quantum fluctuations are buzzing all the time, even in empty space at zero degree Kelvin, the fluctuation are in themselves too small to create a macroscopic effect.

Then how to extract useful energy from the zero point field? To use the digitize example again we can think of the zero point field as random noise below detectable levels yet when added to a signal it produces a real effect, such as: http://zone.ni.com/cms/images/devzone/tut/a/5781be30440.gif

 

[Anders Lindman]

So, then, how does zero point energy relate to the alleged water fuel power plants? The answer is that to use ordinary electrolysis for splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen requires more energy than can be extracted from the process. What is needed for power generation is a means for how to split water into hydrogen and oxygen with less energy needed than can be extracted from the process.

If an electric current sent through water could be amplified by riding on the vacuum energy (zero point energy), then the electrolysis process for splitting the water into hydrogen and oxygen could perhaps be made very efficient.

 

[Dave Rogers]

So, then, how does zero point energy relate to the alleged water fuel power plants?

I know this one. They both don't exist.

If an electric current sent through water could be amplified by riding on the vacuum energy (zero point energy), then the electrolysis process for splitting the water into hydrogen and oxygen could perhaps be made very efficient.

If an electric current could be "amplified by riding on the vacuum energy (zero point energy),", then it could simply be output from the power station, without bothering to use it to electrolyse water, produce hydrogen, then re-oxidise the hydrogen in a fuel cell to produce - invariably, because no real process is 100% efficient - less energy than could have been delivered simply by not bothering to include two totally unnecessary steps of energy conversion.

And that, even if your zero-point-energy fantasies had any truth to them, would still be the fatal logical flaw. All that your hypothetical water fuel cells would do is convert the electrical energy you've just produced into chemical energy, then convert it back again. So the key element of your conspiracy theory - the water fuel cell - is in fact also irrelevant to your conspiracy theory. As I've been pointing out for some time, the whole idea is fundamentally stupid.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

To use the digitize example again we can think of the zero point field as random noise below detectable levels yet when added to a signal it produces a real effect, such as: http://zone.ni.com/cms/images/devzone/tut/a/5781be30440.gif

You haven't got a clue what that diagram means, have you?

Dave

 

[Anders Lindman]

If an electric current could be "amplified by riding on the vacuum energy (zero point energy),", then it could simply be output from the power station, without bothering to use it to electrolyse water, produce hydrogen, then re-oxidise the hydrogen in a fuel cell to produce - invariably, because no real process is 100% efficient - less energy than could have been delivered simply by not bothering to include two totally unnecessary steps of energy conversion.

Not necessarily. The process may be efficient at splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen, but may not be useful as a direct source of electric energy. Of course, there could be other possible techniques to do a direct amplification of electricity through the zero point field, but that may be even more secret technology.

 

[Anders Lindman]

You haven't got a clue what that diagram means, have you?

Dave

It's very simple!

It's such a small image, so for clarity I post it directly here:

When an analog signal (such as for example the electrical signal from a microphone) is converted into digital form, the waveform of the [amplified] signal is sampled (usually at even intervals) into a limited number of digital values. For example, an 8-bit digital audio file has 256 possible values for the amplitude of the waveform.

Let's say that the analog signal has an amplitude of 0 to 5 volts. When digitized, the samples of the signal will have (in the case of 8-bit resolution) a digital value between 0 and 255. These are digital values, meaning that they are all whole integer values, so for example a value of 85 is possible, but not 85.42214 for example.

This means that there is a smallest possible resolution for the digitized signal. If the analog signal to be sampled is smaller than the resolution, the result will be zero for all the samples. In the above picture, the left graph shows such situation, where all samples are zero.

When noise is added to the signal, as shown in the right graph in the picture, then the samples can get values other than zero!

The similarity with the zero point field is that the random quantum fluctuations are too small to result in any real measurable physical effect, BUT when added to ordinary physical events, it can produce measurable effects, just as the example with the digitized signal above.

 

[Anders Lindman]

If we assume that the smallest resolution for physical events is the Planck length, then as the diagram above shows, a physical particle can move between 1 and 2 Planck lengths because of the added quantum fluctuations. Without the quantum fluctuations in the vacuum energy, the particle would remain only at the 1 Planck length level. So this is an example of how the vacuum energy can affect (add energy to) the total movement of a physical particle.

 

[Craig4]

[qimg]http://i53.tinypic.com/27zanvs.png[/qimg]
If we assume that the smallest resolution for physical events is the Planck length, then as the diagram above shows, a physical particle can move between 1 and 2 Planck lengths because of the added quantum fluctuations. Without the quantum fluctuations in the vacuum energy, the particle would remain only at the 1 Planck length level. So this is an example of how the vacuum energy can affect (add energy to) the total movement of a physical particle.

That's nice. Now run along and power something with your zero point energy.

 

[Dave Rogers]

http://i53.tinypic.com/27zanvs.png
If we assume that the smallest resolution for physical events is the Planck length, then as the diagram above shows, a physical particle can move between 1 and 2 Planck lengths because of the added quantum fluctuations. Without the quantum fluctuations in the vacuum energy, the particle would remain only at the 1 Planck length level. So this is an example of how the vacuum energy can affect (add energy to) the total movement of a physical particle.

If you integrate the area under these curves, you will find that the power you get out is precisely equal to the power you put in.

Dave