How 9/11 was done

[9/11-investigator]

The father of voice morphing technology says it is impossible to do it in real time in such a manner to fool one's family members. One of the victims even told her sister the combination to her safe. But I guess it is more likely that the Mossad miraculously figured it out than that it was really her talking.

Can you back these 2 claims up with links? Thanks.

 

[T.A.M.]

General:

1. Americans do not waterboard, for starters. Elements of the USG may or may not have, but one should be careful to label such activity as that of "americans" in general.

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for moderated thread

TAM

 

[Dave Rogers]

BTW: Asking for a condemnation of water boarding practices is probably too much to ask from my opponents?

Personally, I think that waterboarding is an atrocious practice that should never be condoned by any civilised nation. Even though it is clearly nowhere near as immoral as hijacking airliners and deliberately crashing them into buildings, killing thousands of innocent victims, it's still morally wrong. It's also completely irrelevant to the evidence for what happened on 9/11, as neither KSM's statements before his capture, the hijacker martyrdom videos, nor UBL's videos claiming responsibility for the attacks and praising the attackers were obtained by waterboarding.

Dave

 

[dtugg]

Can you back these 2 claims up with links? Thanks.

Elsa Strong says, "She said, 'Hi, Else, this is Lin. I just wanted to tell you how much I love you.' And she said, 'Please tell Mom and Dad how much I love them.' And then she got real calm and said, 'Now my will is in my safe and my safe is in my closet. and this is the combination.' And she just told me the combination of her safe. and then she just said, 'I don't know if I'm ever going to get a chance to tell you again in person how much I love you, but I'm really going to miss you.' And she said goodbye."

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/msnbc090302.html

Voice morphing:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2855438&postcount=1

 

[dtugg]

I have objections to waterboarding. But only because it is not a reliable way to get information. Otherwise, I couldn't care less if they do it to pieces of crap like KSM.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Do you read (and understand) the links you post? This is to make something sound like a PRE-RECORDED track. Did the perps record every possible response from all of the passengers?

In this paper we present a real-time system for morphing two voices in the context of a karaoke application. As the user sings a pre-established song, his pitch, timbre, vibrato and articulation can be modified to resemble those of a pre-recorded and pre-analyzed recording of the same melody sang by another person.

Maybe it's my english but as I understand it: you sing and your voice is real time transformed in the voice of say Madonna.

 

[D'rok]

In this paper we present a real-time system for morphing two voices in the context of a karaoke application. As the user sings a pre-established song, his pitch, timbre, vibrato and articulation can be modified to resemble those of a pre-recorded and pre-analyzed recording of the same melody sang by another person.

Maybe it's my english but as I understand it: you sing and your voice is real time transformed in the voice of say Madonna.

Which means that the conspirators would have to possess, in advance, recordings of the passengers' voices saying exactly what was said in the phone calls. Other wise, the real-time morphing would have no baseline. And given that, why bother morhping at all? The perps could've just played the recording.

 

[240-185]

9/11-I, you don't seem to realize that in order for the morphing voice device to work, Mossad had to record every speech of every victim's voice, provided Mossad knew which victims would be on the planes, which is hardly probable. Thus, you don't have evidence that Mossad recorded these voices. Plus, you're alleging that the victims were in on it, if Mossad contacted them.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

In this paper we present a real-time system for morphing two voices in the context of a karaoke application. As the user sings a pre-established song, his pitch, timbre, vibrato and articulation can be modified to resemble those of a pre-recorded and pre-analyzed recording of the same melody sang by another person.

Maybe it's my english but as I understand it: you sing and your voice is real time transformed in the voice of say Madonna.

since its in the context of karaoke im thinking its just making you hit the notes properly, and not actually altering your voice

additionally, it's matching up to a pre-recorded track, which says to me they would need a recording or exactly what they wanted to make them say in the phone calls

 

[9/11-investigator]

It's also completely irrelevant to the evidence for what happened on 9/11, as neither KSM's statements before his capture, the hijacker martyrdom videos, nor UBL's videos claiming responsibility for the attacks and praising the attackers were obtained by waterboarding.

Dave

I am sure that KSM made a lot of statements in his life that were not obtained by waterboarding, but that is not the point. This is what wikipedia says:

In March 2007, after four years in captivity, including six months of detention at Guantanamo Bay, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — as it was claimed by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing [7] in Guantanamo Bay — confessed to masterminding the September 11th attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up an airliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and various foiled attacks.

Wikipedia does not say if the confession was before or after wasterboarding was applied.

I have my dark suspicions.

 

[dtugg]

I am sure that KSM made a lot of statements in his life that were not obtained by waterboarding, but that is not the point. This is what wikipedia says:

In March 2007, after four years in captivity, including six months of detention at Guantanamo Bay, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — as it was claimed by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing [7] in Guantanamo Bay — confessed to masterminding the September 11th attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up an airliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and various foiled attacks.

Wikipedia does not say if the confession was before or after wasterboarding was applied.

I have my dark suspicions.

Do you know how to read? KSM confessed to 9/11 before he was even captured. Please explain that.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

I am sure that KSM made a lot of statements in his life that were not obtained by waterboarding, but that is not the point. This is what wikipedia says:

In March 2007, after four years in captivity, including six months of detention at Guantanamo Bay, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — as it was claimed by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing [7] in Guantanamo Bay — confessed to masterminding the September 11th attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up an airliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and various foiled attacks.

Wikipedia does not say if the confession was before or after wasterboarding was applied.

I have my dark suspicions.

you shoudl have read the entire article

In a 2002 interview with Al Jazeera journalist Yosri Fouda, Mohammed admitted his involvement, along with Ramzi Binalshibh, in the "Holy Tuesday operation".[26] Mohammed was arrested on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan.[27] Mohammed ultimately ended up at Guantanamo Bay.

he admitted responsibility before he was even arrested, let alone waterboarded

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/04/alqaida.terrorism

 

[9/11-investigator]

Elsa Strong says, "She said, 'Hi, Else, this is Lin. I just wanted to tell you how much I love you.' And she said, 'Please tell Mom and Dad how much I love them.' And then she got real calm and said, 'Now my will is in my safe and my safe is in my closet. and this is the combination.' And she just told me the combination of her safe. and then she just said, 'I don't know if I'm ever going to get a chance to tell you again in person how much I love you, but I'm really going to miss you.' And she said goodbye."

http://s3.amazonaws.com/911timeline/2002/msnbc090302.html

Voice morphing:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2855438&postcount=1

dtugg, thanks for the reply. This kind of posts is what I am really looking for since they really test my theory.

Regarding the first item I have to give it a closer look.

The second is easy to debunk. George Papcun says that the scenario is impossible because you need a sound sample from the passenger in order to imitate his voice. It is my little contribution to the theory to introduce the eavesdropping practices of Israeli companies like Amdocs etc. (I wrote Bollyn an email about it). If the Mossad has acquired a list of passengers that will fly on say flight11 in a couple of weeks time, than they can start eavesdropping on these people to obtain sound samples.

BTW, it is interesting that Papcun no longer speaks of problems in real time voice morphing.

 

[twinstead]

I am sure that KSM made a lot of statements in his life that were not obtained by waterboarding, but that is not the point. This is what wikipedia says:

In March 2007, after four years in captivity, including six months of detention at Guantanamo Bay, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — as it was claimed by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal Hearing [7] in Guantanamo Bay — confessed to masterminding the September 11th attacks, the Richard Reid shoe bombing attempt to blow up an airliner over the Atlantic Ocean, the Bali nightclub bombing in Indonesia, the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and various foiled attacks.

Wikipedia does not say if the confession was before or after wasterboarding was applied.

I have my dark suspicions.

Yea, well dark suspicions that aren't backed up by any evidence aren't worth the paper they're printed on. And by the way, could we wrap up this voice morphing issue? You appear to be totally wrong on that issue, and I think you need to remove it from your suitcase full of 'smoking-gun evidence'

 

[9/11-investigator]

9/11-I, you don't seem to realize that in order for the morphing voice device to work, Mossad had to record every speech of every victim's voice, provided Mossad knew which victims would be on the planes, which is hardly probable. Thus, you don't have evidence that Mossad recorded these voices. Plus, you're alleging that the victims were in on it, if Mossad contacted them.

No they do not need to know the voice of every passenger. If they planned that 10-20 calls would be enough than they only needed 10-20 samples plus some extra for reserve. The list of 9/11 passengers was gradually building up in the airliners database as 9/11 approached. This is not highly classified information, any girl working on a booking office has access to this kind of information. And it is very well thinkable that the Israeli airport security (Huntleigh) had also access to these files. They compile a list and start eavesdropping. Most likely one hears intimate information that can be recycled on 9/11 to remove any doubt that the caller is indeed the passenger he says he is.

Problem solved.

 

[9/11-investigator]

Yea, well dark suspicions that aren't backed up by any evidence aren't worth the paper they're printed on. And by the way, could we wrap up this voice morphing issue? You appear to be totally wrong on that issue, and I think you need to remove it from your suitcase full of 'smoking-gun evidence'

Are you trying to tell me that KSM confessed first and that they gave him the waterboarding treatment afterwards? That defies logic. And do you have any evidence to back such a notion up.

And why should I 'wrap up' the voice morphing issue? It is an essential element of the theory. Show me where I 'appear' to be 'totally wrong' on the issue.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

No they do not need to know the voice of every passenger. If they planned that 10-20 calls would be enough than they only needed 10-20 samples plus some extra for reserve. The list of 9/11 passengers was gradually building up in the airliners database as 9/11 approached. This is not highly classified information, any girl working on a booking office has access to this kind of information. And it is very well thinkable that the Israeli airport security (Huntleigh) had also access to these files. They compile a list and start eavesdropping. Most likely one hears intimate information that can be recycled on 9/11 to remove any doubt that the caller is indeed the passenger he says he is.

Problem solved.

IIRC mark bingham was on the flight with less than 24 hours notice, not much time to collect samples and create the voice morph, dont you think?

also, in regard to the safe combination that another caller mentioned, how would eavesdropping come up with that? do you think people go around saying the combination out loud much?

Are you trying to tell me that KSM confessed first and that they gave him the waterboarding treatment afterwards? That defies logic. And do you have any evidence to back such a notion up.

yes, see my (and dtugg's) post above, he admitted involvement before he was even captured

 

[D'rok]

Mr. Investigator,

You need to deal with this voice-morphing problem:

it's matching up to a pre-recorded track, which says to me they would need a recording of exactly what they wanted to make them say in the phone calls

According to the source you provided, defaultdotxbe is correct. How would this be accomplished?

 

[9/11-investigator]

you shoudl have read the entire article

he admitted responsibility before he was even arrested, let alone waterboarded

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/04/alqaida.terrorism

Yes, he seems to admit it:

I looked Khalid in the eye and asked: "Did you do it?" The reference to September 11 was implicit. Khalid responded with little fanfare: "I am the head of the al-Qaida military committee," he began, "and Ramzi is the coordinator of the Holy Tuesday operation. And yes, we did it."

As a little detail we need to add that he made his confession while being a free man. That made this nobody a local hero. Look at the way he put it: 'I am the boss and yes I did it'. With a little fanfare.

Look the picture of this loser...

Nothing in this image and in his presence that matches the magnitude of the operation he was supposed to have organised.

When I was a kid and played soccer in the park with friends we always competed with each other in carrying the names of famous football heroes. We wanted to be important. KSM's first confession could be seen in the same light.

Once he got in captivity though, he needed 4 years and a little waterboarding to make him repeat the same confession.

 

[gumboot]

Are you trying to tell me that KSM confessed first and that they gave him the waterboarding treatment afterwards? That defies logic. And do you have any evidence to back such a notion up.

And why should I 'wrap up' the voice morphing issue? It is an essential element of the theory. Show me where I 'appear' to be 'totally wrong' on the issue.

Please pay very close attention, because the following two points are crucial. Reread them several times if necessary to be sure you understand them.

1)
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was interviewed by an Arab journalist in 2002, and during the interview he admitted to having planned the September 11 Attacks. A year later in 2003 KSM was captured by US authorities who used waterboarding techniques on him to extract information. While in US custody KSM again admitted responsibility for the September 11 Attacks.

2)
None of the voice morphing technology "evidence" you have presented helps to address one vital problem:

Some of the passenger phone calls were made by passengers who only decided to fly on the hijacked flights at the last moment. Mossad cannot have known they would be on board, and therefore cannot possibly have prepared in advance to fake their calls by monitoring and recording their phone conversations.

There are other major problems with your theory (the technology just doesn't exist, and recording someone's phone calls for a week or two wouldn't captured a big enough sample to accurately mimic their speaking patterns and catch phrases) but even assuming those issues don't exist, you are left with the one enormous problem I described above. No amount of technology invention, or dragging security firms into the plot, or any other hand waving can get you around that problem.