• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Hovind : Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee - HAH!

If all the tax dodgers paid their taxes, my taxes might actually be able to go down

Both of us know that isn't true. It would just mean more money for the government to waste.

It's actually pretty hard to go to jail on tax problems, they usually have to be pretty large.

Really? Any literature you can provide would be greatly appreciated.
 
I'm glad we've apparently established that Skeptic is a total creep and pro-slavery simply because he's not sympathetic to the tax protest hullabaloo. He probably has a whole drawer full of gold fringe and decorative eagle-shaped flagpole caps.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, let's not forget that the point of this thread is to make fun of Kent Hovind for 1) being a douche and 2) being a douche who got nailed a la Al Capone. Says somethin'.
 
I'm glad we've apparently established that Skeptic is a total creep and pro-slavery simply because he's not sympathetic to the tax protest hullabaloo. He probably has a whole drawer full of gold fringe and decorative eagle-shaped flagpole caps.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, let's not forget that the point of this thread is to make fun of Kent Hovind for 1) being a douche and 2) being a douche who got nailed a la Al Capone. Says somethin'.
:)
 
I'm glad we've apparently established that Skeptic is a total creep and pro-slavery simply because he's not sympathetic to the tax protest hullabaloo. He probably has a whole drawer full of gold fringe and decorative eagle-shaped flagpole caps.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, let's not forget that the point of this thread is to make fun of Kent Hovind for 1) being a douche and 2) being a douche who got nailed a la Al Capone. Says somethin'.

:) and I'll raise ya one:)
 
I'm glad we've apparently established that Skeptic is a total creep and pro-slavery simply because he's not sympathetic to the tax protest hullabaloo. He probably has a whole drawer full of gold fringe and decorative eagle-shaped flagpole caps.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, let's not forget that the point of this thread is to make fun of Kent Hovind for 1) being a douche and 2) being a douche who got nailed a la Al Capone. Says somethin'.
I wonder if Hovind has threatened to use baseball bats at any point a la Al Capone. A bit of "smiting" of the IRS and so forth...

And I'm not sure Hovind is so much a douche as a deluded idjit. Someone somewhere filed his tiny head with "God's Salvation! Hallelujah!!"", and he succumbed to the temptation to keep all that fell in his offering plate. THAT person would be the douche. Them, and the maroons who put the money IN the plate too.
 
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, let's not forget that the point of this thread is to make fun of Kent Hovind for 1) being a douche and 2) being a douche who got nailed a la Al Capone. Says somethin'.

...that even the IRS isn't all bad?
 
I wonder if Hovind has threatened to use baseball bats at any point a la Al Capone. A bit of "smiting" of the IRS and so forth...

And I'm not sure Hovind is so much a douche as a deluded idjit. Someone somewhere filed his tiny head with "God's Salvation! Hallelujah!!"", and he succumbed to the temptation to keep all that fell in his offering plate. THAT person would be the douche. Them, and the maroons who put the money IN the plate too.
You might be right, still, I think it better to call him a douche.
 
I don't think all of these are funded by income tax, but I take your point.

Let's put it this way. The difference between those who really are protesting a law as unjust, and those who merely disobey the law for their own personal benfit, it usually very clear.

Take the people who refused to file and pay income tax during the Vietnam war. Even if you don't agree with the reason why they didn't pay, one must admit that (1) they didn't claim the law doesn't require them to file. They agreed it did. (2) They didn't refuse to, say, pay alimony, or to drive according to the law; they only refused to obey this one law. (3) They didn't demand special lenient treatment, let alone claim they deserve immunity from prosecution, just because they are ideological protestors, as opposed to the hoi polloi who cheat on their taxes for selfish reasons.

Take, on the other hand, the so-called "tax protestors" today--people like Hovind:

(1) First of all, they don't claim the law is unjust; they base their entire philosophy on all sorts of hare-brained excuses why the law doesn't really require them to pay taxes, because "the 16th amendment wasn't ratified", or "wages isn't income", or "white male Christian native-born free sovereigns don't have to obey federal laws", or whatever. That their interest isn't really in what the law says but simply in finding some excuse for not paying, can be seen from the fact that most of them move from guru to guru based solely what "untaxing" theory they think has the highest chance of "working".

(2) Most of them--usually using the "sovereign citizen" excuse or "Federal government has no authority outside D.C." excuse--refuse to obey any law they don't feel like obeying; they refuse to get drivers' licenses, or business permits, etc. In addition, most of them are simply deadbeats who, their record show, simply don't pay any debt they don't want to, public or private. The same forums (such as, say, www.suijuris.net -- NOT RESPONSIBLE for any drinks spewed on keyboards by those visiting the link) which "explain" to people why they don't have to pay income tax also "explain" why they don't have to pay their alimony, mortgage, city taxes, credit card bills, or, in effect, any debt they don't feel like paying.

(3) When prosecuted, do they welcome the chance at publicity and to tell the judge in open court why they are disobeying an unjust law? No, of course not. They do everything in their power to get away with not paying taxes without being prosecuted. It is only AFTER whatever "magic word" theory or "sovereign citizen" nonsense that their guru told them to use fails, that they suddenly "discover" that they are martyrs for the cause and are being unjustlry prosecuted by an evil, evil government for "exposing the truth".

In principle, I object to both taxes and government. However I understand that they are necessary evils. But should someone go to jail simply for not paying them? Shouldn't they be given a chance to make amends or opt out before they're sent to jail?

Almost invariably they ARE. If you are late on your taxes, or even if you deliverately cheat and are caught, in the vast majority of cases the IRS will be reasonable and allow you to, in effect, pay the back taxes (or a fine for cheating) and not go to jail. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that Hoving, too, was originally given the option of taking such a "payment plan" and avoiding criminal prosecution. In Hovind's case, however, he made it quite clear that he would simply not pay no matter what.

Is this not the land of the free?

I hate to point out the obvious, but "land of the free" doesn't mean "nobody ever goes to jail", or it would simply be "the land of anarchy". What it means is the land where nobody goes to jail without due process of law. Hovind had his share of due process and more. He simply keeps insisting on not obeying the law no matter what, so he goes to jail.
 
Let's put it this way. The difference between those who really are protesting a law as unjust, and those who merely disobey the law for their own personal benfit, it usually very clear.

Take the people who refused to file and pay income tax during the Vietnam war. Even if you don't agree with the reason why they didn't pay, one must admit that (1) they didn't claim the law doesn't require them to file. They agreed it did. (2) They didn't refuse to, say, pay alimony, or to drive according to the law; they only refused to obey this one law. (3) They didn't demand special lenient treatment, let alone claim they deserve immunity from prosecution, just because they are ideological protestors, as opposed to the hoi polloi who cheat on their taxes for selfish reasons.

Take, on the other hand, the so-called "tax protestors" today--people like Hovind:

(1) First of all, they don't claim the law is unjust; they base their entire philosophy on all sorts of hare-brained excuses why the law doesn't really require them to pay taxes, because "the 16th amendment wasn't ratified", or "wages isn't income", or "white male Christian native-born free sovereigns don't have to obey federal laws", or whatever. That their interest isn't really in what the law says but simply in finding some excuse for not paying, can be seen from the fact that most of them move from guru to guru based solely what "untaxing" theory they think has the highest chance of "working".

(2) Most of them--usually using the "sovereign citizen" excuse or "Federal government has no authority outside D.C." excuse--refuse to obey any law they don't feel like obeying; they refuse to get drivers' licenses, or business permits, etc. In addition, most of them are simply deadbeats who, their record show, simply don't pay any debt they don't want to, public or private. The same forums (such as, say, www.suijuris.net -- NOT RESPONSIBLE for any drinks spewed on keyboards by those visiting the link) which "explain" to people why they don't have to pay income tax also "explain" why they don't have to pay their alimony, mortgage, city taxes, credit card bills, or, in effect, any debt they don't feel like paying.

(3) When prosecuted, do they welcome the chance at publicity and to tell the judge in open court why they are disobeying an unjust law? No, of course not. They do everything in their power to get away with not paying taxes without being prosecuted. It is only AFTER whatever "magic word" theory or "sovereign citizen" nonsense that their guru told them to use fails, that they suddenly "discover" that they are martyrs for the cause and are being unjustlry prosecuted by an evil, evil government for "exposing the truth".



Almost invariably they ARE. If you are late on your taxes, or even if you deliverately cheat and are caught, in the vast majority of cases the IRS will be reasonable and allow you to, in effect, pay the back taxes (or a fine for cheating) and not go to jail. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that Hoving, too, was originally given the option of taking such a "payment plan" and avoiding criminal prosecution. In Hovind's case, however, he made it quite clear that he would simply not pay no matter what.



I hate to point out the obvious, but "land of the free" doesn't mean "nobody ever goes to jail", or it would simply be "the land of anarchy". What it means is the land where nobody goes to jail without due process of law. Hovind had his share of due process and more. He simply keeps insisting on not obeying the law no matter what, so he goes to jail.
Good post skeptic. Thank you.
 
*snip*

I don't think all of these are funded by income tax, but I take your point.

But the fact is, they *are* funded by income tax. All taxes go into the same big pot, out of which money is taken to fund stuff.

*snip*

In principle, I object to both taxes and government. However I understand that they are necessary evils. But should someone go to jail simply for not paying them? Shouldn't they be given a chance to make amends or opt out before they're sent to jail? Is this not the land of the free? Call me overly patriotic or nationalist or whatever, but I think it's a sad day in America when a supposedly free person is carted to jail for not caving into the state's demands for money.

The problem is, if people *don´t* go to jail for refusing to pay taxes, then taxes are pointless. As much as you (or Shanek, for that matter) hate to hear it, any law (including tax law), in any country, under any possible kind of government, are ultimately enforced at gunpoint, with the threat of imprisonment. That´s because if they are not, they´re no longer laws, just voluntary guidelines.
And if they were just voluntary guidelines, society would inevitably collapse. I mean, sure, you sometimes annoy some people here (everyone does), but there´s a law against murder, and "he annoyed me" is just as invalid a defense as "I don´t agree with that law", so you´re safe. But allow "disagree with that law" or "we´re the land of the free" as valid reasons to not obey that law, and you´ll have instant anarchy.
 
You're making sense and not just ranting, Skeptic! What's come over you?! ;)
Almost invariably they ARE. If you are late on your taxes, or even if you deliverately cheat and are caught, in the vast majority of cases the IRS will be reasonable and allow you to, in effect, pay the back taxes (or a fine for cheating) and not go to jail. I am willing to bet significant amounts of money that Hoving, too, was originally given the option of taking such a "payment plan" and avoiding criminal prosecution. In Hovind's case, however, he made it quite clear that he would simply not pay no matter what.
You have won that bet - he WAS indeed given the opportunity in the early 90's to pay back-taxes due then on the installment plan. Actually, his lawyer agreed...Hovind was not present, apparently. Of course, he didn't pay then either...
 
Both of us know that isn't true. It would just mean more money for the government to waste.
Really? Any literature you can provide would be appreciated.

There has traditionally been no link between the amount of taxes collected and the amount the gov't has been willing to spend. Especially in recent years where the gov't has been perfectly willing to spend in excess of what is taken. There is no correlation that evading taxes causes the government to spend less. So if they take in less money, they'll still need to collect more from those of us who do pay to make up the difference, or borrow it and make future generations pay up.

Really? Any literature you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Certainly. The IRS Criminal division in 2005 investigated 1873 cases, they recommended prosecution in 1157 of those cases, and got 953 indictments. 804 of those people were sentenced with an average of 28 months.

804 people out of a population of 220 million over 18. That's pretty low number, you have to be pretty special for the IRS to focus on you for criminal charges and jail time.

http://www.irs.gov/compliance/enforcement/article/0,,id=106791,00.html
 
Society decides what laws are passed and therefore what is criminal. Individuals can choose to ignore those laws they decide are wrong to them as an individual. However they must acknowledge that society disagrees with them to such an extent that they will be thrown in jail if their actions violate the law.

Traditionally those that have fought laws they found to be repugnant do so by publicly flaunting the laws and frequently purposefully get arrested. If they can change enough minds in society then the laws can be changed. If not, then people will continue to be thrown in jail.

There are tax protestors that take this tactic, and I respect them for there willingness to go to jail for their cause.

Dr. Dino isn't one of these. He's simply a selfish guy that doesn't want to pay taxes. He attempts to use bogus theories to avoid jail.

According to the docket:
http://www.ustaxcourt.gov/InOpHistoric/Hovind.TCM.WPD.pdf

He created a fake "pure" trust to dodge taxes. Those willing to break tax law for moral purposes don't usually create a fake trust to hide their assets. They typically announce what they are doing and just don't pay.

More on pure trusts here:
http://www.quatloos.com/taxscams/contrusts.htm
 
I am as happy as any one of us that Hovind is in hot water but I must demur from the general sense of this thread. I wish Hovind's @ss was in a sling because of his blatently false ideas which the law would find fraudulent, not because he is a tax jerk.
Unless he's going to agree to take his own bogus challenge, and make that acceptance legally binding, that's not going to happen. Free speech, remember?

However, there is poetic justice here, because he is being punished for the same character faults that make him a creationist propagandist: the ignorance, the arrogance, the obstinacy in the face of expert opinion, and the apparent belief that he can do what he likes 'cos God's on his side.
 

Back
Top Bottom