Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 3

Meadmaker said:
The supreme Court can move faster. Back in the Nixon era there were plenty of actions executed. And bush v gore took about a week.

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How about you stop substituting an imaginary "what could happen" world when discussing the particulars of the moving pieces and parts taking place in the actual, physical world unfolding in front of us?

In the real world, the House has gone to court over their various subpoenas and they have all dragged on for several months now and show no sign of prompt resolution.
 
Segnosaur said:
Those incidents happened decades ago, with a very different composition on the court. We currently have a majority of Republican-appointed judges, with several of them appointed under very contentious circumstances. And recent history shows them more than willing to play politics.


Depending on the poll, Trump has an approval rating of anywhere from ~80-95%. I'm pretty sure that constitutes his 'base'.

That would be incredibly dumb.

Lets say the democrats decide to wait until after the election to proceed with impeachment, to let all the subpoenas play out in court. Trump engages in illegal activities to fix the election (extorting Ukraine to interfere, perhaps allowing Russia to continue its activities). It tips the balance in favor of the republicans again.

So, the democrats impeach. And 'win'. And they are STILL left with a republican president, who continues to have the authority to nominate right-wing judges, issue executive orders that push a racist agenda, etc.

Much better to, you know, make sure any election is FAIR. i.e. not subject to illegal manipulation by Trump and the republicans, rather than to try to take action AFTER the election is finished.
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The above post shows exactly why this impeachment is a politically losing action for the Democrats.

By the way, the last election was fair. The next election will be fair.
 
Meadmaker said:
The above post shows exactly why this impeachment is a politically losing action for the Democrats.
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Yep. And as long as the Democrats get shown up you'll be happy, damn the consequences for anyone else.

By the way, the last election was fair. The next election will be fair.
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Well that's a lie.
 
Segnosaur said:
So it does appear to be more than just idle 'internet speculation'.
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Why? She was asked a question by a reporter and answered it. If a reporter had asked her if she thought Trump was the ghost of Henry VIII and she said no that wouldn't imply that she had previously discussed it with other politicians.
 
Meadmaker said:
The above post shows exactly why this impeachment is a politically losing action for the Democrats.
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A claim with no evidence and which makes absolutely no sense.
By the way, the last election was fair. The next election will be fair.
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Well, except for the whole "Russian interference" thing. And the whole "Minority voter" suppression thing. And the whole gerrymandering thing (admittedly a congressional thing, but it was still part of the elections).

Not really sure why efforts to use the authority of the president to smear a political rival through extortion of a foreign country is considered part of a 'fair' election. You must have a different definition of the word 'fair' than the rest of us do.

Once again... your suggestion that somehow the supreme court would act swiftly to resolve the issue of congressional subpoenas is foolish because it ignores recent cases which suggest that the supreme court is willing to act in a political (pro-republican) fashion.
 
Meadmaker said:
The above post shows exactly why this impeachment is a politically losing action for the Democrats.

By the way, the last election was fair. The next election will be fair.
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No, it doesn't. Potentially sure. But I don't think likely. The election is 9 months away. What people think today may not be irrelevant in November but certainly does not mean that some people won't change their opinions.

The Republicans paid a price for impeaching Clinton. But the Democrats certainly did not pay a price for impeaching Nixon. That's because the public viewed them very differently and I guarantee the public will view this very differently than either of those impeachments. How is anyone's guess. That said, I believe this is easy for people to understand.
 
JPK said:
On several occasions, including just moments ago, Senator Graham said that if the Dems get witnesses than the President should be allowed to have a his own witnesses called, including the Bidens.
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Which is not the same thing as saying "we'll allow them to have a witness if they allow us to".

He said that he would answer a Senate issued subpoena. That doesn't mean he would say anything that Trump would say is covered by privilege.
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He's already said these things. He was going to publish them in a book, and his lawyer is on record as saying that nobody in the White House should have seen the contents before it was published.

Sure, he could now pretend. But he'd have to commit perjury to do so, and Republicans have thus far had a habit of standing by Trump right up until doing so would get them in trouble too. Maybe Bolton would risk prison for Trump. But given that he wrote what he wrote and was going to publish without running it by Trump first, I don't think he's quite as in thrall as you're making him out to be.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Not the Republicans, but it wouldn't shock me if Trump leaked it himself. Trump wants witnesses and thinks he knows better than McConnell or anyone else. Or as has been demonstrated several times already, it just got released because this entire White House has been leaky.
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I'll agree that Trump's a moron. I think this is beyond even him.
 
Stacyhs said:
If that is true, then we are in an even worse situation than I thought. The GOP Senate will truly and irrevocably have become Trump Cult members.
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They've ignored all kinds of revelations. I had one ready to present last night and now I can't remember what it was. I'm sure it will come back to me. It was apples to apples, GOP just ignoring disclosures that were relevant but not part of the official impeachment case.

I'm not sure Bolton would be such a great witness anyway. He may be more enthusiastic about Trump after the Soleimani strike.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Okay. GOP Senators have been "frustrated" with Trump before, just like Susan Collins is always so very, very concerned about what he is doing.

GOP Senators making some noise at Trump isn't all that rare. It just never translates to any actual meaningful opposition.
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Yep.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Why? She was asked a question by a reporter and answered it. If a reporter had asked her if she thought Trump was the ghost of Henry VIII and she said no that wouldn't imply that she had previously discussed it with other politicians.
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Well if you want more evidence of a republican desire for a "bolton for biden" witness exchange, there is also the Lindsey graham tweet:

From: https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1221796478613585920
If there is a desire and decision by the Senate to call Democratic witnesses, then at a minimum the Senate should allow President @realDonaldTrump to call all relevant witnesses he has requested.

(And Donald Trump has suggested calling the Bidens, and the whistleblower).
 
So has any Republican said what exactly they want to ask Biden on the stand?

Because again... nothing Biden did matters. If Joe or Hunter Biden get on the stand and confess to literally being Satan... nothing Trump did or did not do changes.

The Trumpers get that right? That Trump doesn't (or rather shouldn't in any sane world) win if they prove Joe or Hunter Biden is dirty right?
 
Segnosaur said:
Well if you want more evidence of a republican desire for a "bolton for biden" witness exchange, there is also the Lindsey graham tweet:

From: https://twitter.com/LindseyGrahamSC/status/1221796478613585920
If there is a desire and decision by the Senate to call Democratic witnesses, then at a minimum the Senate should allow President @realDonaldTrump to call all relevant witnesses he has requested.

(And Donald Trump has suggested calling the Bidens, and the whistleblower).
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That's not the same thing. It's pouting and saying "well, if they get what they want, then we should get what we want, too". That's not the same thing as "we're looking to see if we can come to a mutually-beneficial agreement, where if they allow us to call the witnesses we want to we will allow them to call the witnesses they want to".

Or, to put it another way, it's not saying "if you help me fix my roof this weekend, I'll help you move house next weekend", it's saying "that pretty girl gave her a kiss. Why shouldn't she give me one, too? Otherwise it's not fair!"
 
Meadmaker said:
If he defies a scotus order, public opinion will shift against him. Anything less won't be enough to move the needle.

Segnosaur said:
Trump has a hardcore base that will accept him regardless of whatever he does, illegal or not.
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I agree with Segnosaur.

Just five weeks ago, a Trump supporter stood in front of cameras and said he and his .357 Magnum were comfortable with resorting to violence if they tried to remove the president.

It’s never been about laws, or about the executive branch recognizing the power of the other branches, or even the president recognizing the power of the Republican Party and its Senators and justices. it’s always been about Trump, himself.

The Kool-Aid metaphor may been overused, but....
 
Meadmaker said:
Boy, it sure is a good thing Bolton wrote that book, or we would never have known that.
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There was Sondman's testimony. Bolton's supports that testimony.



Meanwhile in fairy tale land Ken Starr is telling us the Senate is under oath, the House wasn't.

And, "We are in the Age of Impeachment."

And he pulls Scalia out of his grave.

Starr is trying desperately for one of those quotes remembered for decades by using crap like "a knife in the heart of the Presidency."

I can't stand anymore, I had to mute it. His slow cadence for effect is incredibly inferior to Schiff's who actually did it right.
 
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Every witness, every piece of evidence uncovered so far that supported the theory that Trump is very, very guilty.

No one believes that Trump is sitting on a mountain of exculpatory evidence and testimony that he is just too shy to release.

The Dems' presumption that every obstruction is evidence of guilt is entirely supported by what we have seen so far.
 
JPK said:
Good morning. I'm still not sure I want Bolton to be called to testify. I suspect that whole game was to just use as a bargaining chip to get the Dems to agree to let the Biden's testify. Bolton will have nothing to say. I suspect he will do what all of the others did and claim that he can't talk about it because the President "may" want to invoke privilege at some point in time. Not that the President did invoke privilege but just that he might want to. Up until this point, thats all that needed to be done. No one, Dems or Republicans have forced the issue. Why not have the House subpoena the document? The Bolton draft that he sent to the White house? Documents don't lie. Bolton is a staunch Trump followed regardless of the very few disagreements he has had with the President. That's where I would start.
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What? He's already spoken. Heck it wouldn't surprise me if he's the WH leaker. I don't believe they can stop his book legally if it is already out there.

Mulvaney, OTOH, has already announced to the press, he doesn't remember talking to Bolton.
 
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JPK said:
Also, Bolton's lawyers are saying that it was the White House that leaked this. They were the only ones who had this document. The White house released this information for a reason. Smells like it's just another attempt to have the Dems push to ask for Bolton to testify so they can ask for the Biden's and add more rings to the circus.

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You're looking for zebras, the horse is already out of the barn.

There is no way the GOP Senators wanted to deal with Bolton's revelations on the eve of their case presentation.
 
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