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Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

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JoeMorgue said:
//Note. Hopefully everyone grooves on the wavelength that we aren't talking about any technical dictionary or Political Science 101 technical definition of liberal/conservative but to broader, loosely defined social movements that just default to using the terms, fair? //

The end of basically any economic future for the rural areas, and a questionable economic future that doesn't involved an hour plus of commuting for the suburban areas, and a total lack of concern or caring from anyone in power about it.

The rural areas are dying. I will argue, with every ounce of strength in my being, against pretty damn close to literally every way that the rural areas (Again "Orange Man Bad" I know, I know, don't need to be reminded) have choose to react to this, as dangerous, hateful, stupid, and short-sited but I will not do a disservice to honesty and pretend it's not true.

Way back when the whole Trump... thing first happened I happened (I can't directly link it because it's got a naughty word in in the URL) David Wong wrote an article for Cracked.com entitled "How Half of American Lost Its (Censored) Mind" and broke it down.

1. It's not about blue states and red states, it's about urban and rural.
2. City people are from a goddamn different planet then rural people.
3. The rural areas have been beating to (censored)
4. All the economic recovery is pointed at the cities.

I blame the Rural areas for literally everything they are currently doing... except for the base fact of being angry in the first place.

This is why all the liberal threats against the rural people are so laughable. They've got nothing to lose, you can do nothing to them.

"Trump is gonna start a war!" Hell half of them are living in a goddamn post-apocalypse already.

"Trump is gonna tank the economy" Oh I'm sorry is the factory that was the only business in my town and shutdown 20 years ago somehow going to make less money?

You can dismiss all of this as some sort of stealth pro-Trump screed if you must, but I lived in these place. The places where the last business to open was the Dollar General a decade back (an actual real namebrand Dollar General if you're lucky, a knockoff most of the time), where when a "name" business closes and shutters its doors it not gonna get turned into a twee hipster micro-brewery or vintage vinyl record store in a few month it's just gone forever, and that one pothole has been on main street literally your entire life. A place where when stuff leaves it never comes back. When stuff breaks it stays broken. Watching everything around you just die and decay.

There's a line in an old country song. "Honey you know the world ain't round. It drops off sharp at the edge of town. Baby you know the world must be flat. Because we people leave town they never come back."

The despair eats you goddamn alive. And you can't complain. You're not allowed. You're just a dumb redneck who sleeps with his sister and does meth.

To use the example Wong did in the article I mentioned it's the feeling when a Category 5 Hurricane plows through the entire heartland of the country but there's more thinkpieces written about the plight of goddamn shelter dogs in New Orleans then about anyone who affected that lived outside of the Mardi Gras parade route. "Oh who cares about a bunch of rednecks losing their mobile homes? I only care about devastation in places that have a CSI spinoff."

And then as I said earlier you turn on the TV and an ultra-rich liberal who flew in his private jet to stand in an auditorium with other ultra-rich liberals so they can hand each other gold statues about how awesome they are stands there in his suit that cost more then all the money you will ever make in your life and takes time out of his day to tell you that you are the problem and put on a big showy display of proving who among them wants to understand you the least.

It breaks something in you. I know. I was never "there" but I came close. Like David Wong said in the article I accept the fact that had I not escaped, and I use that term deliberately, from rural life I'd probably be a Trump supporter. And again everything makes sense if we see Trump as a brick with the words "Are you listening to us now?" written on in thrown through our window. Just because their message is every possible variation of wrong doesn't change that. It doesn't mean we have to listen to them, but we do have to "listen" to them or this isn't going to get better.

I've never stop opposing the kind of raw, stupid, reflexive hatred we're seeing from the Trumpers... but that's not the same thing as not "getting" it. Not condoning it, not understanding, not accepting it but "getting" it.
Click to expand...

Very interesting. I went back and re-read this more closely after you referenced it again. Much truth in it. Not sufficient time to comment deeply right now. I, too, have rural roots, but I don't see things quite the same way. More later.
 
Oh what nonsense. "He has the votes." He always had the votes. Like he had to go around and ask and convince people like the 3rd act of Lincoln.

53 Republicans, 45 Democrats, 2 Independents (who caucus with the Democrats.)

Here's a prediction. The vote to start the impeachment is going to be 53 to 47.

The vote for rules on how the impeachment is going to run are all going to be 53 to 47.

The vote to convict Trump is going to be 53 against, 47 for.

Every vote until the next election (or someone resigns or whatnot) that is specifically "about" President Trump is going to be 53 to 47, maybe very occasionally with a minor case of someone jumping the aisle or breaking ranks to make a point.
 
JoeMorgue said:
//Note. Hopefully everyone grooves on the wavelength that we aren't talking about any technical dictionary or Political Science 101 technical definition of liberal/conservative but to broader, loosely defined social movements that just default to using the terms, fair? //

The end of basically any economic future for the rural areas, and a questionable economic future that doesn't involved an hour plus of commuting for the suburban areas, and a total lack of concern or caring from anyone in power about it.

The rural areas are dying. I will argue, with every ounce of strength in my being, against pretty damn close to literally every way that the rural areas (Again "Orange Man Bad" I know, I know, don't need to be reminded) have choose to react to this, as dangerous, hateful, stupid, and short-sited but I will not do a disservice to honesty and pretend it's not true.

Way back when the whole Trump... thing first happened I happened (I can't directly link it because it's got a naughty word in in the URL) David Wong wrote an article for Cracked.com entitled "How Half of American Lost Its (Censored) Mind" and broke it down.

1. It's not about blue states and red states, it's about urban and rural.
2. City people are from a goddamn different planet then rural people.
3. The rural areas have been beating to (censored)
4. All the economic recovery is pointed at the cities.

I blame the Rural areas for literally everything they are currently doing... except for the base fact of being angry in the first place.

This is why all the liberal threats against the rural people are so laughable. They've got nothing to lose, you can do nothing to them.

"Trump is gonna start a war!" Hell half of them are living in a goddamn post-apocalypse already.

"Trump is gonna tank the economy" Oh I'm sorry is the factory that was the only business in my town and shutdown 20 years ago somehow going to make less money?

You can dismiss all of this as some sort of stealth pro-Trump screed if you must, but I lived in these place. The places where the last business to open was the Dollar General a decade back (an actual real namebrand Dollar General if you're lucky, a knockoff most of the time), where when a "name" business closes and shutters its doors it not gonna get turned into a twee hipster micro-brewery or vintage vinyl record store in a few month it's just gone forever, and that one pothole has been on main street literally your entire life. A place where when stuff leaves it never comes back. When stuff breaks it stays broken. Watching everything around you just die and decay.

There's a line in an old country song. "Honey you know the world ain't round. It drops off sharp at the edge of town. Baby you know the world must be flat. Because we people leave town they never come back."

The despair eats you goddamn alive. And you can't complain. You're not allowed. You're just a dumb redneck who sleeps with his sister and does meth.

To use the example Wong did in the article I mentioned it's the feeling when a Category 5 Hurricane plows through the entire heartland of the country but there's more thinkpieces written about the plight of goddamn shelter dogs in New Orleans then about anyone who affected that lived outside of the Mardi Gras parade route. "Oh who cares about a bunch of rednecks losing their mobile homes? I only care about devastation in places that have a CSI spinoff."

And then as I said earlier you turn on the TV and an ultra-rich liberal who flew in his private jet to stand in an auditorium with other ultra-rich liberals so they can hand each other gold statues about how awesome they are stands there in his suit that cost more then all the money you will ever make in your life and takes time out of his day to tell you that you are the problem and put on a big showy display of proving who among them wants to understand you the least.

It breaks something in you. I know. I was never "there" but I came close. Like David Wong said in the article I accept the fact that had I not escaped, and I use that term deliberately, from rural life I'd probably be a Trump supporter. And again everything makes sense if we see Trump as a brick with the words "Are you listening to us now?" written on in thrown through our window. Just because their message is every possible variation of wrong doesn't change that. It doesn't mean we have to listen to them, but we do have to "listen" to them or this isn't going to get better.

I've never stop opposing the kind of raw, stupid, reflexive hatred we're seeing from the Trumpers... but that's not the same thing as not "getting" it. Not condoning it, not understanding, not accepting it but "getting" it.
Click to expand...

https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

The article referenced in Joe's post. Still worth a read.
 
BrooklynBaby said:
There aren't going to be any witnesses. The Turtle has the votes.
Click to expand...

At this moment it seems so.

Is the ~71% of the citizenry who would like to see a fair trial content that the Senate does not want documentary evidence and fact witnesses? It's really in the hands of the voters to pressurize their elected officials to do the right thing. It takes only 4 Senators in swing states to either have their consciences pricked or to merely pay lip service to fairness.
 
Meadmaker said:
Very interesting. I went back and re-read this more closely after you referenced it again. Much truth in it. Not sufficient time to comment deeply right now. I, too, have rural roots, but I don't see things quite the same way. More later.
Click to expand...

To follow up, Trump supporters are very happy that liberals hate Trump, and that is a big part of why they like him. However, you (Joe, et. al.) seem to think that's all they care about. The fact that liberals hate him is not an end in itself.

They hate the leftist agenda. They think the leftist agenda is bad for the country. Trump stands up to the leftist agenda, and so they love him. Unlike a lot of conservatives, he isn't even apologetic about it, and he goes after the stuff that other politicians won't touch for fear of being accused of bad things.

The fact that it also makes leftists apoplectic and say funny things is just icing on the cake.

So, along comes a group of people who are trying to throw him out of office. They want him to stay in office. They look at the evidence, and they don't see a crime for which he has to be thrown out. (Neither do I.) They look at what he did in Ukraine, and they are divided. Some see absolutely nothing wrong. Some see something a little bit wrong. A few seem something pretty darned wrong (that's where I'm at), but they care more about other things than whatever he did.

So, he's going to stay, unless something else comes out.

The fact that he's hiding emails and refusing court orders might end up being his downfall. I wouldn't count on it, but it could. There's some chance, if it gets pursued.


For my part, if you could convince me that he violated the War Powers Act I would be glad to pick up the impeachment/conviction banner. I think it's incredibly important that one man should not be able to start a war, so I think that power has to be firmly in Congress' hands. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that, for reasons I have never understood, have been even harder to rally people behind. (i.e., they tend to get all Rah! Rah! behind the president, and ignore the War Powers Act.)
 
The leftist agenda of giving dignity to homosexuals and people who not white Christian males. That really has upset them.
 
Meadmaker said:
To follow up, Trump supporters are very happy that liberals hate Trump, and that is a big part of why they like him. However, you (Joe, et. al.) seem to think that's all they care about. The fact that liberals hate him is not an end in itself.

They hate the leftist agenda. They think the leftist agenda is bad for the country. Trump stands up to the leftist agenda, and so they love him. Unlike a lot of conservatives, he isn't even apologetic about it, and he goes after the stuff that other politicians won't touch for fear of being accused of bad things.

The fact that it also makes leftists apoplectic and say funny things is just icing on the cake.

So, along comes a group of people who are trying to throw him out of office. They want him to stay in office. They look at the evidence, and they don't see a crime for which he has to be thrown out. (Neither do I.) They look at what he did in Ukraine, and they are divided. Some see absolutely nothing wrong. Some see something a little bit wrong. A few seem something pretty darned wrong (that's where I'm at), but they care more about other things than whatever he did.

So, he's going to stay, unless something else comes out.

The fact that he's hiding emails and refusing court orders might end up being his downfall. I wouldn't count on it, but it could. There's some chance, if it gets pursued.


For my part, if you could convince me that he violated the War Powers Act I would be glad to pick up the impeachment/conviction banner. I think it's incredibly important that one man should not be able to start a war, so I think that power has to be firmly in Congress' hands. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that, for reasons I have never understood, have been even harder to rally people behind. (i.e., they tend to get all Rah! Rah! behind the president, and ignore the War Powers Act.)
Click to expand...

That's an awful lot of "They think..." and takes right back to the "It's basic trolling."

You can dismiss this as "you think that's all they care about" but you aren't giving me anything else that isn't circular.

So where does this end? How much do da libruls have to get worked up before their debt is paid off and we can have a functioning government again?
 
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Segnosaur said:
You have to wonder how serious he is.

After all he knows the Republicans want the impeachment to go quietly and so they will probably not want to call any witnesses (or if they do, they will only call irrelevant ones like Biden). And he had the chance to testify to the house but he did not. So his promise to testify to the Senate is probably hot air.

I wonder if the house could call his bluff... Reopen the inquiry and issue a subpoena from them.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
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It's interesting to watch Bolton being the star of the day around GOP legislators, eating up the attention with a big grin on his face.

Hardly no one paid attention to Bolton before this except his infamous statement about the UN building working fine without a number of the top floors.

He writes a book, probably full of his particular alt-right beliefs which he held before Trump, and look at all the attention this move has gotten him.
 
Sideroxylon said:
The leftist agenda of giving dignity to homosexuals and people who not white Christian males. That really has upset them.
Click to expand...

The fact they can't enforce their religiously based ideas on others who disagree with them has them really upset, too.

Speaking of, that whole "War on Christmas" bull feces has to be one of the stupidest far right lies ever.
 
JoeMorgue said:
That's an awful lot of "They think..." and takes right back to the "It's basic trolling."

You can dismiss this as "you think that's all they care about" but you aren't giving me anything else that isn't circular.

So where does this end? How much do da libruls have to get worked up before their debt is paid off and we can have a functioning government again?
Click to expand...

The details would be off topic. They like him. They like what he does. They like that you hate him. They aren't going to pressure their senators to throw him out. They aren't going to punish their senators at the ballot box for keeping him in. At least...if the election were today. There's plenty of time for him to do stupid things between now and November, but everything that the left, the press, in some cases me, thought would cause his support to collapse, didn't. I had a hard time understanding it for a long time, but I think I get it, and it isn't just that they want to see you get upset. That's just a bonus.
 
Meadmaker said:
The details would be off topic. They like him. They like what he does. They like that you hate him. They aren't going to pressure their senators to throw him out. They aren't going to punish their senators at the ballot box for keeping him in. At least...if the election were today. There's plenty of time for him to do stupid things between now and November, but everything that the left, the press, in some cases me, thought would cause his support to collapse, didn't. I had a hard time understanding it for a long time, but I think I get it, and it isn't just that they want to see you get upset. That's just a bonus.
Click to expand...

I think you're right. These people really like him...they like what he does, they like how he thinks, they don't care what awful/disgusting things he does/says because...they like it. These are whom Clinton referred to as the "deplorables", and she was right.
 
Meadmaker said:
To follow up, Trump supporters are very happy that liberals hate Trump, and that is a big part of why they like him. However, you (Joe, et. al.) seem to think that's all they care about. The fact that liberals hate him is not an end in itself.

They hate the leftist agenda. They think the leftist agenda is bad for the country. Trump stands up to the leftist agenda, and so they love him. Unlike a lot of conservatives, he isn't even apologetic about it, and he goes after the stuff that other politicians won't touch for fear of being accused of bad things.

The fact that it also makes leftists apoplectic and say funny things is just icing on the cake.

So, along comes a group of people who are trying to throw him out of office. They want him to stay in office. They look at the evidence, and they don't see a crime for which he has to be thrown out. (Neither do I.) They look at what he did in Ukraine, and they are divided. Some see absolutely nothing wrong. Some see something a little bit wrong. A few seem something pretty darned wrong (that's where I'm at), but they care more about other things than whatever he did.

So, he's going to stay, unless something else comes out.

The fact that he's hiding emails and refusing court orders might end up being his downfall. I wouldn't count on it, but it could. There's some chance, if it gets pursued.


For my part, if you could convince me that he violated the War Powers Act I would be glad to pick up the impeachment/conviction banner. I think it's incredibly important that one man should not be able to start a war, so I think that power has to be firmly in Congress' hands. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing that, for reasons I have never understood, have been even harder to rally people behind. (i.e., they tend to get all Rah! Rah! behind the president, and ignore the War Powers Act.)
Click to expand...

Yet you're essentially OK with him trying to rig the next election in his favor. *That*, too, is what the Framers had in mind when building impeachment into the Constitution. You want to grade the trespasses on a scale, so as to give Trump every opportunity to get a Mulligan, as he has gotten over the entirety of his miserable, cheating life.
 
Trump is a master of his lies canceling out his incompetence which is then canceled out by more lies which is then canceled out by more incompetence...
 
Meadmaker said:
They hate the leftist agenda. They think the leftist agenda is bad for the country. Trump stands up to the leftist agenda, and so they love him. )
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No.

They hate the establishment. There is no ideology beyond that, just whatever salesman does the better job of selling their solution. The GOP is hard selling the monorail, and the democrats haven't bothered to do anything. So it sounds like they want the monorail even though the monorail is contrary to their interests.
 
Sideroxylon said:
The leftist agenda of giving dignity to homosexuals and people who not white Christian males. That really has upset them.
Click to expand...


I think it's more the leftist agenda as portrayed by the right wing media. Which is a different proposition.
 
Stacyhs said:
The fact they can't enforce their religiously based ideas on others who disagree with them has them really upset, too.

Speaking of, that whole "War on Christmas" bull feces has to be one of the stupidest far right lies ever.
Click to expand...

And remarks like these represent reason #56 that he got elected and would probably win re election.... pending that he doesnt do something outright stupid between now and then

Minor update on how I see things with the impeachment... pelosi holding onto the articles is a failed power play independent of whether or not people think trump needs to be forcibly removed from office. Them demanding witnesses at this stage is even weaker... as I've pointed out in the past, they had full control over this process in their impeachment inquiry but made the argument that there was so much urgency that they couldnt wait for this issue to be resolved electorally. Now they've sat on it for over a month and they are demanding witnesses that they could have subpoenaed through the courts if they took enough time to do it...... regardless if you think trump should be removed... I think they are doing more damage to their case than the Senate is in how they're viewed in handling the impeachment trial.

Sorry the be the bearer of this news but some of the issues they're having now and are using as justification for withholding the articles are issues of their own making
 
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