Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

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JoeMorgue said:
You can't just sit here and counter everything Trump's doing with some new variation on "Well he's getting away with it, ergo it has to be a valid use of the system" when the fact that he's getting away with it specifically because he is using the system the way he is is the problem is such a major point of argument against Trump.

Even if, if, we hit some massive, damn near reality denial "I believe button" and pretend we can even entertain the idea that Trump hasn't done anything objectively legally, Constitutionally, or morally wrong watching our country go to crap based on how far a demagogue manchild see how much damage he can do while still being "technically" right is not anything any of us should be championing just because it's giving a boner to a previously untapped zeitgeist of sad, smarmy, disaffected, nihilistic trolls who think they've cracked the code on life by just being detached who'll standby and cheer on any damage done just to to increase they chances they'll get to watch the system fail and say to "I told ya so" anyone who ever showed a scrap of positivism or optimism or ever dared be "hyperbolic" about anything that ever scared or bothered them.

Yes previous Presidents have used Executive Privilege, yes even in ways I most definitely did not like. But none of them were specifically just seeing how much crap they could get away with before they were stopped.

Just because we have a system of both formal and informal checks and balances, not all of which are defined to mathematical precision doesn't not make it the Presidents job to stress test the system to find its breaking point.
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:bigclap
 
Meadmaker said:
Yes, they have that authority, but that authority is not unlimited. "Executive privilege" is not something that Trump or Nixon made up. It's a critical aspect of the system of checks and balances. If Congress ignores it, and says that any time it is invoked they can and should remove the president from office, then there's no check on congressional power.

In reality, though, there is a check on congressional, and executive, power. If Congress makes a demand, and the president refuses that demand, then they can go to court to try to enforce the demand.

And plenty of presidents have asserted the ability to refuse to comply with congressional subpoenas. One of them, Nixon, went to court, and lost.

When the executive refuses a congressional command, the Congress could impeach him. That's what happened in December. However, they need 2/3 vote to convict. They'll never get it, and the public will yawn.

However, in 1974, the Supreme Court sided with Congress, and faced with that court defeat, public pressure mounted on Nixon. He and his lawyers decided that failure to comply would result in impeachment, so they complied. It turns out the material that was subpoenad contained enough bad stuff that public pressure still mounted, and the congressional Republicans turned on Nixon, and he was thrown out, or would have been if he hadn't see the handwriting on the wall and resigned.

The Democrats should go through that channel now. Refusing a Supreme Court order would be seen as a pretty big deal by the public, and it could turn at least some of the Republicans against him. Anything less is a major yawner.
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You're exaggerating. A lot. To begin with Executive privilege has been asserted in a very limited fashion. Not this blanket assertion which basically is saying **** off.

It also should be noted that Trump and the administration hasn't claimed executive privilege. It simply has said we refuse to cooperate with a Congressional inquiry.
 
I wrote a typical response to Joe, but decided not to send it. I'm replacing it with this.



If you want to know how Trump got elected, and why he won't be kicked out of office, and why I would bet that he will be reelected, look in the mirror.
 
Meadmaker said:
If you want to know how Trump got elected, and why he won't be kicked out of office, and why I would bet that he will be reelected, look in the mirror.
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It is disheartening that after all this time the best answer we can get out of anyone is that Trump is some appropriate punishment or retribution or reaction to... something.

People get mad when we call the entire Trump phenomenon from the man at the top to the masses at the bottom nothing but trolling, but then you tell me what to call it?

What is America being punished for? What did we do to deserve Trump? And how is he going to make it better?
 
JoeMorgue said:
It is disheartening that after all this time the best answer we can get out of anyone is that Trump is some appropriate punishment or retribution or reaction to... something.

People get mad when we call the entire Trump phenomenon from the man at the top to the masses at the bottom nothing but trolling, but then you tell me what to call it?

What is America being punished for? What did we do to deserve Trump? And how is he going to make it better?
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It is retaliation for voting in an educated black liberal president. Just another blow in the culture war that has been going back how far? The Scopes Monkey Trial seems like early battle. The American Civil War? There is a large block of Americans who reject the academic narratives about the history of life, geology, archeology, non essentialist views on gender, offering dignity to homosexuals and people who are not white Christians.

Having their worldview written up on pissant sites like Conservapedia only made them feel more disenfranchised. They wanted their ideas to rule the mainstream and they have won it to a large degree and are digging in.
 
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I see much erudite discussion about the intricacies of US constitutional checks and balances, etc., as though team trump are playing some kind of tip-and-run with the law.

Here’s my view: they’re not. They think they know the law but it is clear they don’t. Instead they are simply ignoring it, or worse still, going “**** YOU!!” at everyone and doing whatever the hell they want regardless. They thought Obama was untouchable so they think they are now untouchable.
 
JoeMorgue said:
It is disheartening that after all this time the best answer we can get out of anyone is that Trump is some appropriate punishment or retribution or reaction to... something.

People get mad when we call the entire Trump phenomenon from the man at the top to the masses at the bottom nothing but trolling, but then you tell me what to call it?

What is America being punished for? What did we do to deserve Trump? And how is he going to make it better?
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He is not saying that Trump is a punishment per se, but a result of the 'disrespect' shown to by 'the left'.

Of course the definition of 'disrespect' is 'don't give deference to my denial of reality'. People stopped pretending that an unsupported view or opinion is valid or worth anything just because someone says it. They have less privilege than they did before. Things for a while were becoming more equal in many ways, and to them who have never felt nor given actual equality, that loss of privilege feels like an attack.

Being called on their ******** like everyone else is terrifying. How will they adjust? They'll get us all into deep **** and blame everyone else. Fundamentally, their mentality is that of toxic crybullies with no sense of personal responsibility.

Point out the staggeringly bad reasoning and lack of support for their assertions is an attack. You attacked them. They'll make you hurt for it, even if they hurt as much or more.

Their identity is tied to being given unjustified deference. They are the spoiled rich kids. Not giving them deference is an attack on who they are and they demand to never grow.

Once you understand that, all their assertions make perfect sense. They want you to pretend they're at least partially right, even if they are flat wrong. Especially if they are flat wrong.
 
I've been banging the "One big anti-intellectual performance art piece" drum for a while.

I want to hear how the Trumper's actually conceptualize it. I want to hear how it sounds in their head.
 
Here's the thing, folks. This most recent subthread started when I said that by defying a court order, that could be the thing that turns public opinion against Trump and actually gets him thrown out of office. I opined that the Democrats should jump on that right away and get it to the Supreme Court, because that might be the way to get Donald Trump out of office.


Now, go back and read the recent posts that developed around that, and try to make sense of them. Pay particular attention to "sad, smarmy, disaffected, nihilistic trolls".
 
"You're mean to me so I'm gonna support Trump" isn't an answer, it's another evasion.

Fine. I'm a big mean... *gasp* HYPERBOLIC */gasp* poopie head.

Still doesn't answer the question.
 
Norman Alexander said:
I see much erudite discussion about the intricacies of US constitutional checks and balances, etc., as though team trump are playing some kind of tip-and-run with the law.

Here’s my view: they’re not. They think they know the law but it is clear they don’t. Instead they are simply ignoring it, or worse still, going “**** YOU!!” at everyone and doing whatever the hell they want regardless. They thought Obama was untouchable so they think they are now untouchable.
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That's a relatively fair assessment.

I do think a lot of people in the administration understand the law. They even know very well they are breaking the law. But laws are meaningless unless they are enforced. This may be the one thing Trump himself does understand about the law.

The Constitution is a general document. It was a basic outline of where to begin and little else. We depend on our leaders to follow those principles as well as the laws that evolved from it. We've never had a President before who thinks that Article 1 gives him the right to do whatever he wants and that he's entirely immune not only from prosecution, but from investigation and a legislative branch entirely unwilling to assert any check against the unlimited power Trump is claiming.
 
The irony is I've always agreed, within certain contexts, that there are a large percentage of America is getting a raw deal or crap they don't deserve on a conceptual level.

Yes I'm as sick of anyone of watching a hundreds of ultra-wealthy liberal Hollywood types fly in their private jets to spend 4 hours on a stage in outfits that cost more then my house, handing each other gold statues to each other about how great they are taking time during their speeches to lecture me on my plastic straws and meat eating. Go steam your goddamn vagina Paltrow and leave me be.

I'm pissed that an 18 year old can go die for their country can't enjoy a smoke or a drink.

I'm pissed that the move from an manufacturing to a tech/service based economy was so goddamn obvious for so long and literally nobody thought to maybe have a plan for it.

And yes the Left has too many whiny, self righteous twits on it.

I agree with all of that. They are problems. They need to be solved. It's a goddamn shameful tragedy that they haven't been.

But to all that I say.... so? "But the Left is a bunch of out of touch dillweeds!" That's the big "We live in a society!" moment where the Joker/Travis Bickle/D-Fens/Tyler Durden character stands in front of us all and gives his big speech about why he's going to bring the whole system down because it's not fair?

Because the Left is annoying? That's it? The left is annoying? I'm shocked! This is my shocked face. Do you see how shocked I am? That's totally new information to me! Please give me a moment while I smack my gob at the utter paradigm shift my existence has to undergo in order to incorporate the information that the Left is a bunch of annoying goobers. Why someone bring me my fainting couch I do believe I have the vapors.

None of that excuses Trump.
 
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Meadmaker said:
I wrote a typical response to Joe, but decided not to send it. I'm replacing it with this.



If you want to know how Trump got elected, and why he won't be kicked out of office, and why I would bet that he will be reelected, look in the mirror.
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Liberals being condescending (and such) to conservatives is not nearly as conducive to division (or, indeed, as common) as right wing media telling conservatives that liberals are being condescending (and such) to them.
 
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Meadmaker said:
I wrote a typical response to Joe, but decided not to send it. I'm replacing it with this.

If you want to know how Trump got elected, and why he won't be kicked out of office, and why I would bet that he will be reelected, look in the mirror.
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Seeing as posts here on this sleepy backwater aren't changing the course of history, obviously you mean that Joe represents opinions/attitudes/whatever that are widespread, and that did change the course of history, and will continue to do so.

If only I knew what those opinions/attitudes/whatever were.
 
Cabbage said:
Liberals being condescending (and such) to conservatives is not nearly as conducive to division (or, indeed, as common) as right wing media telling conservatives that liberals are being condescending (and such) to them.
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+1

It doesn't matter how liberals talk to or treat the Right Wing, the Right Wing will always claim that liberals are "angry" "scared" "condescending" "elitist" or "divisive." People who are not in the Right Wing shouldn't care about hurting the feelings of the Right because the Right doesn't really care and the Right will claim victim-hood no matter what.
 
varwoche said:
Seeing as posts here on this sleepy backwater aren't changing the course of history, obviously you mean that Joe represents opinions/attitudes/whatever that are widespread, and that did change the course of history, and will continue to do so.

If only I knew what those opinions/attitudes/whatever were.
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You are correct in your assessment. If it were merely opinions expressed here in this sleepy little backwater, it wouldn't matter, but the opinions here are reflected in lots of people in the real world, too.

And it's also correct that you, and lots of other people, don't grasp what the problem is.

A complete discussion would be off topic, so I'll focus on just how it relates to impeachment.


I chimed in with the thought that by defying a court order, Trump had crossed a line which might turn the tide in the impeachment discussion, and that Democrats ought to push it, because it might result in removing Trump from office.

To me, that sounds pretty anti-Trump. Democrats ought to pursue a course that would give Trump the boot. Sounds almost like I don't like Trump and would like to see him removed from office.


However, that's not good enough around here. I always hesitate to put words in other people's mouths, or try to understand motivations especially when I disagree with what people are saying, but I'm just trying to make sense of the response. It seems like I expressed an anti-Trump opinion, but it wasn't sufficiently anti-Trump to satisfy a lot of people. I'm not really certain why that is, but I guess it is because it implies that the known facts, as they exist, are not adequate to throw Trump out. I'm saying we need more.

That, apparently, is anathema. It's objective reality, but it's anathema. In order to sit at the cool kids' lunch table, you have to express the opinion that Donald Trump is the absolute worst thing that ever happened to America, that he is clearly a dirty criminal who ought to be in a jail cell, and, here comes the most important part of all, that anyone who disagrees is just a dumbass. How did Joe phrase it? I remember, "sad, smarmy, disaffected, nihilistic trolls".

And that attitude is nearly ubiquitous on the left. It's not just about impeachment, but that happens to be the subject here. People are tired of that attitude. So many people have been kicked out of the cool kids' lunch table that it turns out the rest of the school doesn't even like the cool kids anymore.
 
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Again "Tear the whole system down on our heads to punish the other side for their attitude" is rather childish.

Pompous hyperbole is not a sin worth this level of reprisal.
 
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Meadmaker said:
If you want to know how Trump got elected, and why he won't be kicked out of office, and why I would bet that he will be reelected, look in the mirror.
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I'd bet some money that you couldn't elaborate on that, and how exactly it had any impact on the election.

We've been told time and time again that Trump's election was a reaction to... I don't know, liberals being liberals, I guess. But no one's really been able to fully explain it, nor does it really match the evidence that we have, including Trump's votes being lower than Romney's, and lower than Hillary's, etc.

Trump won because Hillary didn't energise the base, not because of something related to Trump.
 
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