Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

[thaiboxerken]

You'll have to forgive theprestige's "Everything sucks, everyone sucks equally, nobody is better then anyone else, and if you think anyone should be better I'm going to mock you for not giving up like me" faux-nihilism whenever anyone points out that his side is corrupt to the core.

Yes, it's a common tactic in the alt-right playbook.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You are going with the theory that Trump was engaging in a plot to create a bad public image by saying that Biden is under investigation for corruption.


I'm going with the theory that Trump is a lunatic who believes whatever fits in better with his own narrative.

I don't know how to resolve the difference, but I'm sticking with lunatic.

How about if there were witnesses and evidence that supported the first theory?

 

[Meadmaker]

No. You are wrong. Completely wrong. Wrong from every angle. Wrong even within the context of how you are wrong. Fractionally wrong. Wronger then wrong. Not even wrong.

No. The President of the United States does not have the right, duty, or responsibility to ask a foreign government to investigate anyone; a political rival or private citizen, even if they "honestly think the person is corrupt."

No, I don't want to hear any alternative fact theory, version, excuse, whatabout, stall, "Hey look a squirrel," "But the other side did..." or anything else.

The President of the United States is not allowed to ask, hit, suggest, "Not saying just saying" or in any way or form instruct a foreign government to get involved in American politics in this way; legally, morally, or hell even logically. This is a fact and it is not up for debate.

And the idea that Trump actually thinks Biden is corrupt is functionally insane.

Yes, the President of the United States does have that right. So do you. So do I. No one would care if you or I asked it, but we have that right, and that right would not disappear if we won an election.

Way back just before the release of the transcript, I said it was going to be a "nothingburger". That was based on my belief that, in fact, all he did was ask for an investigation, which really is a big fat nothing. It turns out I was wrong. He did more. He tied the aid, at least temporarily, to the request. That's not a nothingburger, but just asking? That's nothing.

People are allowed to ask other people to do things, even if those people have the actual power to do the things that are being asked of them.

So, if it's not nothing, is it impeachable? Ultimately, that's a decision that the American people will make, indirectly, by pressuring their representatives one way or another. Do they think it's so bad that an elected president needs to be thrown out of office without even waiting for another election?

I think they have made their decision, and Trump will last at least until the next election. The only question is whether the drama of the impeachment process will tend to make people more likely to vote him out, or keep him. I think it's a political loser for the Democrats. I hope I'm wrong, but i'm confident I'm right.

The only hope I see is what Minoosh referred to as the "tipping point". Yes, it could happen, but it could also backfire. My crystal ball is too cloudy to see that well in the future.


As for what Trump actually believes, my belief is that he truly believes that his crowds were bigger, and everything else that he says with apparent sincerity. Like most pathological liars, he might believe something else ten minutes later when it's convenient to do so. I listen to right wing radio. So does Trump. The Biden corruption angle was playing over and over and over long before he made a phone call to the president of Ukraine. Yes, I think he believes it. Why wouldn't he? People who go on television and say, "Trump is awesome." were also saying "Joe Biden is corrupt." Why wouldn't Trump believe them?

 

[TragicMonkey]

You are going with the theory that Trump was engaging in a plot to create a bad public image by saying that Biden is under investigation for corruption.


I'm going with the theory that Trump is a lunatic who believes whatever fits in better with his own narrative.

I don't know how to resolve the difference, but I'm sticking with lunatic.

The third possibility is that Trump is neither a cynic nor a lunatic, but merely very, very stupid.

 

[Meadmaker]

How about if there were witnesses and evidence that supported the first theory?

There isn't.



(And if anyone wishes to attempt to rebut that, please, please, may I ask a favor that you actually look at what "the first theory", and "the second theory" are? It would be easy to make a mistake about that, so I will spell them out.

Theory number 1: Donald Trump concocted a scheme to discredit Joe Biden by falsely accusing him of corruption, and enlisted Zelensky to play a part in this scheme.

Theory number 2: Donald Trump is a lunatic who believes that Joe and/or Hunter Biden were engaging in corruption.

Now, if you have evidence that theory number 1 is correct, bring it on, but please don't bring up evidence that Joe Biden is not corrupt. I know that. That is not in any way relevant to distinguishing between theory number 1 and theory number 2.)

 

[Meadmaker]

The third possibility is that Trump is neither a cynic nor a lunatic, but merely very, very stupid.

I will accept that as a viable alternative.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes.

How does this story end to you? Because I don't buy this "We impeach him, the Senate obviously laughs it out of the building as soon as it is passed to them, but a whole bunch of people are going to be so impressed they'll switch sides" narrative.

Trump will sell this as him surviving an impeachment, that the Democrats threw everything, up to and including the biggest, strongest legal/political action you can take against a sitting President, and they still couldn't take him down.

He will come out of this stronger, not weaker. No before you start I can't "know for sure" but I think it's at very least as likely as your scenario.

I don't believe that.

In my version of reality the evidence of Trump's corruption drips and drips. It not like it's a surprise to anyone. Now where have I heard that before?

The GOP legislators continue to fear being primaried and some of them, like Moscow Mitch and Nunes, are pleased as peaches with all the alt-right goodies they get form Trump.

But they are not the majority in this country.

If we get a candidate people can get behind, Trump will lose in a landslide of EC delegate votes.

That's the unknown at the moment. There are some candidates Trump will run right over like Biden.

The Evangelicals might sink Buttigieg.

I think Sanders and Warren could win. The socialism attack is another unknown.

It's impossible to tell this early in the process.

But Trump is not a big hero anymore that is going to drain the swamp. Sure he has his core, but more people than not see him for the con he is.

Do you?

 

[varwoche]

The third possibility is that Trump is neither a cynic nor a lunatic, but merely very, very stupid.

None of those are mutually exclusive.

 

[bruto]

The third possibility is that Trump is neither a cynic nor a lunatic, but merely very, very stupid.

I've always presumed that's the starting point, but there's no law that says stupid people can't also go crazy.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Huh? No he doesn't deny it. He's mighty darned proud that he did it.

So got a link to Trump saying he asked Zelensky to investigate Biden? He said it in the call memorandum, then denied it. Then claimed he was holding aid until some sort of corruption was addressed, none of which there is any evidence of Trump caring except for investigating Biden.

So which is it, Trump wanted Biden investigated or Trump's innocent of the impeachment charge? Trump cared about corruption but he wasn't investigating his political rival? Russia didn't interfere in the 2016 election, Ukraine did. They both did?

Trump's story is all over the ******* place. Admitting he wanted Biden investigated is not on the top of his list. But clearly the evidence that is the case is quite extensive.

 

[thaiboxerken]

There isn't.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/tr...e-updates-n1086301/ncrd1086861#liveBlogHeader

In a key moment of his testimony on Wednesday, Sondland said that, as he understood it, Zelenskiy simply had to announce the probes into Burisma and the debunked conspiracy into Democrats and the 2016 election — not actually do them.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The third possibility is that Trump is neither a cynic nor a lunatic, but merely very, very stupid.

I don't believe those three are mutually exclusive.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

Theory number 1: Donald Trump concocted a scheme to discredit Joe Biden by falsely accusing him of corruption, and enlisted Zelensky to play a part in this scheme.

Theory number 2: Donald Trump is a lunatic who believes that Joe and/or Hunter Biden were engaging in corruption.

Now, if you have evidence that theory number 1 is correct, bring it on, but please don't bring up evidence that Joe Biden is not corrupt. I know that. That is not in any way relevant to distinguishing between theory number 1 and theory number 2.)

Number 1 was probably true at some point.

The number 2 became Trump's reality, probably with input from Giuliani who is also mad as a hatter. Trump is corrupt and sees everyone else as like him. Trump's corrupt so of course everyone else is too.

Does it matter that Trump believes in crazy CTs? Does that make it OK if he acts on them?

You must know Trump didn't give a rip about any corruption, only about getting some advantage over Biden in the election.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

None of those are mutually exclusive.

That's funny. I said the same thing before I saw your post.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

No. You are wrong. Completely wrong. Wrong from every angle. Wrong even within the context of how you are wrong. Fractionally wrong. Wronger then wrong. Not even wrong.

No. The President of the United States does not have the right, duty, or responsibility to ask a foreign government to investigate anyone; a political rival or private citizen, even if they "honestly think the person is corrupt."

No, I don't want to hear any alternative fact theory, version, excuse, whatabout, stall, "Hey look a squirrel," "But the other side did..." or anything else.

The President of the United States is not allowed to ask, hit, suggest, "Not saying just saying" or in any way or form instruct a foreign government to get involved in American politics in this way; legally, morally, or hell even logically. This is a fact and it is not up for debate.

And the idea that Trump actually thinks Biden is corrupt is functionally insane.

You are wrong in every possible way, from every possible angle.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but here is something to consider regarding your assertion above:

"Trump had every right to ask Ukraine to cooperate or assist in an official Department of Justice investigation into the origins of the Russia “collusion” hoax. His request was pursuant to an official probe being conducted by U.S. Attorney John Durham and initiated by Attorney General William Barr. In fact, Ukraine is required to comply under a binding treaty with the U.S. ...

It is indisputable that Biden is seen and heard on videotape bragging that he engineered the firing of Ukrainian prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, by threatening to withhold $1 billion in U.S. aid to Ukraine. Shokin is on record telling the Washington Post that he was sacked because his investigators were “on his (Hunter Biden’s) tail” in a case of suspected corruption involving $3 million in fees that found their way into the pocket of the VP’s son. Joe Biden has dismissed this as nonsense and the mainstream media have accepted his explanation as gospel. However, documents newly uncovered by The Hill’s John Solomon belie Biden’s claim. These records appear to show that Shokin’s account, not Biden’s, was true.

Joe Biden’s boast about his “quid pro quo” with Ukraine is compelling evidence that he may have used his public office to confer a benefit ($1 billion) in exchange for something of value –shutting down an investigation to help his son. This is where the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act comes into play, as well as other federal felony statutes such as bribery, extortion, and honest services fraud. The Justice Department would be justified in investigating Biden to determine whether he took any official action involving taxpayer money as Vice President to benefit his son."

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/gre...in-witch-hunt-to-drive-trump-from-white-house

 

[Meadmaker]

?

You must know Trump didn't give a rip about any corruption, only about getting some advantage over Biden in the election.

I agree.

ETA: On second thought...….

It's not quite that simple. He certainly is not a moral person trying to do good in the world, but I think he thinks he is. People with no moral compass can convince themselves they are travelling true north all the time.

 

[I Am The Scum]

So who's really winning this round? Pelosi?

Yes.

 

[Meadmaker]

As an aside that doesn't quite fit in, but is related, I think it's quite amusing to listen to a bunch of Republicans criticize do nothing boards of directors for being overpaid.

Burisma is not the only company in the world that paid a whole bunch of money to someone who just sat on their board and attended a couple of meetings a year, nor would it be the only company in the world who just happened to hire a well connected Harvard lawyer in that role.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I agree.

ETA: On second thought...….

It's not quite that simple. He certainly is not a moral person trying to do good in the world, but I think he thinks he is. People with no moral compass can convince themselves they are travelling true north all the time.

That's a bit muddy.

A total narcissist who only gives a rip about himself might also believe he's the king of the world because he's so great at being king.

So when you say believing he is doing good in the world, it needs a caveat. It's not because he actually cares except as it makes him feel great about himself.

 

[Venom]

I agree.

ETA: On second thought...….

It's not quite that simple. He certainly is not a moral person trying to do good in the world, but I think he thinks he is. People with no moral compass can convince themselves they are travelling true north all the time.

I think "people with no moral compass" like Trump primarily do what's in their best interests. Someone who I think thought he was trying to do good in the world is George W. Bush.