Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

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Outplayed? Trump's not going to be convicted. How is that a loss?

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Absolutely outplayed. The Republicans thought they could dispose of this in two weeks, declare victory and have this in their rear view mirror. Instead, they're in purgatory, not sure what happens next.

it stays in the news cycle week after week.
 
Again this mythology that the only way to be "impartial" is to start out as a totally blank slate with no opinions is inane.

"We can only impeach a President if literally nobody in Congress thinks he is guilty" sort of falls apart if you think about it... like at all.

If nobody in Congress already thought Trump was guilty we wouldn't be impeaching him.
 
This sounds a bit like the claim that teachers aren't neutral and objective if they say we know evolution or global warming is real.

I'm saying exactly the opposite, although there is a similar conflation occurring.

I may very well say that I am not impartial on the subject of evolution, and a creationist may say that makes all of my judgement on the subject biased.

This is false. What is happening is that my current partiality is being conflated with the impartiality that was present to get me to this point.

Most senators have already examined the evidence and reached a conclusion. Probably all of them have done so. I am sure that they all sincerely believe they were impartial in doing so.

Having already reached their conclusions, are they now impartial?

Incredibly, a lot of people will answer, "Our team is."
 
Again this mythology that the only way to be "impartial" is to start out as a totally blank slate with no opinions is inane.

"We can only impeach a President if literally nobody in Congress thinks he is guilty" sort of falls apart if you think about it... like at all.

If nobody in Congress already thought Trump was guilty we wouldn't be impeaching him.

Yea, but it's another thing entirely for someone to declare they have no intention of being unbiased and they don't want to hear any facts.
 
I'm saying exactly the opposite, although there is a similar conflation occurring.

I may very well say that I am not impartial on the subject of evolution, and a creationist may say that makes all of my judgement on the subject biased.

This is false. What is happening is that my current partiality is being conflated with the impartiality that was present to get me to this point.

Most senators have already examined the evidence and reached a conclusion. Probably all of them have done so. I am sure that they all sincerely believe they were impartial in doing so.
Having already reached their conclusions, are they now impartial?

Incredibly, a lot of people will answer, "Our team is."

The highlighted is demonstrably false. Senators have stated they have no intention of looking at transcripts of testimony or any other evidence.
 
One benefit of partisan politics has always been that corrupt politicians get caught out and held accountable by the other party. Now, the Party of Trump tells us that's unfair.
 
Yea, but it's another thing entirely for someone to declare they have no intention of being unbiased and they don't want to hear any facts.

Not in today's political landscape.

"I am sitting here, the Senate Majority Lead, declaring my intent to not be impartial" and "I think we should impeach Trump because I think he's guilty of impeachable offenses" are apparently the exact same sentence.
 
Ahh, my favorite named fallacy. The fallacy of equivocation.


Ziggurat says "be impartial". The oath says "do impartial justice". SB (and many, many, others) say they mean the same thing.


It's weird. One senator can say, "I am not impartial", and there are howls of "OATHBREAKER!". Meanwhile, three senators who happen to want to be the next president can publicly declare that Donald Trump should be removed from office, and there are a few such shouts, but when you listen carefully, it seems that the shouting is coming from a different corner. No one who condemns one is condemning the other.

Before anyone says something stupid about "whataboutism", let me head this off at the pass. "Whataboutism" is jargon that occurs when one side says that a certain behavior is ok because the other side is as bad or worse. That is absolutely, unequivocally, NOT, what I'm doing.

I'm saying that neither side is doing anything bad here. The requirement to "do impartial justice", doesn't mean that no senator can have an opinion, or that no senator can express that opinion publicly. It means that each of us, with a special emphasis on senators, needs to judge the case according to its merits, not according to polticial considerations.

Have you all done that? Well I would hope that you at least did your best, and yet, it seems that both public opinion and senators' statements are strongly divided along party lines. So it often is. It's human nature. And yet, each will say that party affiliation has no influence on their judgment.

I, for one, cannot look at either side and say the people on side A have made a fair and impartial judgment based on the facts and/or the law, while the other side is a bunch of partisan hacks who are simply interested in the political consequences of the outcome. To me, both sides seem pretty political in this.
As if howling automatically invalidates an opinion. I can't imagine a more clear-cut violation of an oath - no, wait, let me howl, "a breaking of the oath" - of impartiality than to say one is not impartial. If that doesn't break an oath, what would?
 
I'm saying exactly the opposite, although there is a similar conflation occurring.

I may very well say that I am not impartial on the subject of evolution, and a creationist may say that makes all of my judgement on the subject biased.

This is false. What is happening is that my current partiality is being conflated with the impartiality that was present to get me to this point.

Most senators have already examined the evidence and reached a conclusion. Probably all of them have done so. I am sure that they all sincerely believe they were impartial in doing so.

Having already reached their conclusions, are they now impartial?

Incredibly, a lot of people will answer, "Our team is."
There is an equivocation or confusion going on in this thread about what "impartial" means. It means without bias. If one comes to a conclusion fairly and neutrally, that conclusion is not biased, even though one holds the conclusion and does not accept its negation. Holding an opinion or conclusion strongly does not mean one is biased necessarily.



Saying one is not impartial, or that one is biased, does necessarily mean that one is biased and partial.
 
Here is a sincere question I don't know the answer to. Has any senator publicly stated that they are undecided on the question of removing Trump from office?
 
Not in today's political landscape.

"I am sitting here, the Senate Majority Lead, declaring my intent to not be impartial" and "I think we should impeach Trump because I think he's guilty of impeachable offenses" are apparently the exact same sentence.

There is an equivocation or confusion going on in this thread about what "impartial" means. It means without bias. If one comes to a conclusion fairly and neutrally, that conclusion is not biased, even though one holds the conclusion and does not accept its negation. Holding an opinion or conclusion strongly does not mean one is biased necessarily.



Saying one is not impartial, or that one is biased, does necessarily mean that one is biased and partial.

The Senate should be impartial "triers of fact," regardless of their opinions. I don't recall any Democrats defending Clinton by saying he didn't really commit perjury, but the entire Party of Trump has decided that their best bet is to simply deny the facts.
 
I reminded of a right motherly talking to I got in one of the Figbooter discussions where some thread nanny took me and others to task for "being in the discussion already having decided that bigfoot didn't exist."

False neutrality in the face of actual evidence is far more intellectually dangerous then not achieving some "Pure Philosophical Blank Slate" level of "unbiased."
 
Monica Lewinsky gave personal, and quite powerful, testimony during the Clinton trial.

I don't recall if there were others.
Monica didn't testify live, they video taped depositions of her, Vernon Jordan, and Sidney Blumenthal and played them to the Senate.
 
The requirement to "do impartial justice", doesn't mean that no senator can have an opinion, or that no senator can express that opinion publicly. It means that each of us, with a special emphasis on senators, needs to judge the case according to its merits, not according to polticial considerations.

McConnell has said that he's not going to look at any of the evidence. He's also said that he's coordinating with the accused in order to do what Trump wants him to do.

Do either of those things, in your mind, fit in with judging the case according to its merits rather than according to political considerations.

Have you all done that?

I'm not even American, so ascribing partisan motives to me is barking up the wrong tree entirely.
 
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Monica didn't testify live, they video taped depositions of her, Vernon Jordan, and Sidney Blumenthal and played them to the Senate.

I'm pretty sure they weren't played to the Senate but made available for them to see the depositions.
 
Monica Lewinsky gave personal, and quite powerful, testimony during the Clinton trial.

I don't recall if there were others.

Did she? Every source I can find says she didn't. For example: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cli...-senate-trial-key-witnesses/story?id=67757534

McCollum was one of the only lawmakers to interview Monica Lewinsky during the Clinton impeachment, but he said her testimony would’ve been more effective if she had been able to testify publicly. The obstruction charge against Clinton included his alleged efforts to keep a federal grand jury and court from discovering his affair with Lewinsky.

“I always thought that Monica Lewinsky should have been brought live,” he said.

McCollum emphasized how valuable “live” witnesses can be in determining a trial’s outcome.

“If you are judging [a witness’] truth and veracity...you need to look at them, their demeanor, how they present themselves,” McCollum said.

Also Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_of_Bill_Clinton#Senate_trial

Over three days, February 1–3, House managers took videotaped closed-door depositions from Monica Lewinsky, Clinton's friend Vernon Jordan, and White House aide Sidney Blumenthal. On February 4, however, the Senate voted 70–30 that excerpting these videotapes would suffice as testimony, rather than calling live witnesses to appear at trial. The videos were played in the Senate on February 6, featuring 30 excerpts of Lewinsky discussing her affidavit in the Paula Jones case, the hiding of small gifts Clinton had given her, and his involvement in procurement of a job for Lewinsky.
 
"I am 100%, positively sure that 2+2=4 and nothing will change my mind."
"I am 100%, positively sure that 2+2=5 and nothing will change my mind."

Raise your hand if you don't understand why, on a practical level, the second statement is more of a problem then the first?

Nobody? Okay we scan stop this stupid "Oh but both sides are biases and impartial" stalling hijack.

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!
 
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