Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

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smartcooky said:
If you had actually been paying attention to international events, you would understand the difference between

a. Biden withholding the release of funds to Ukraine for the national benefit of that country's anti-corruption stance, and

b. Trump withholding the release of funds to Ukraine for the personal benefit of Trump.

Trump and his minions claim that Biden strong-armed the Ukrainian government to fire its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin in order to thwart an investigation into Burisma, the company tied to his son, Hunter Biden.

The reality is that Shokin was fired for the exact opposite reason Trump sycophants are claiming - it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among his country's politicians. Another piece of reality for you is that Biden wasn't acting as a lone-gun here. Shokin's lack of action against corruption in Ukraine brought criticism from European countries leading to calls for his removal.

In a very real sense, Joe Biden's action could potentially have placed his own son in the firing line had there been anything untoward in the latter's appointment to the board of Burisma.
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It should also be noted that the above is describing reality, not an opinion. There are no two conflicting opinions on this. There's just reality and fantasy.
 
bruto said:
While I'm inclined to agree with many that Biden was not guilty of any crimes, I think a big point is missed here. Even if he had been, what Trump is accused of is criminal. International blackmail to defeat an opponent is criminal even if you're righteous and your opponent is not.
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No, there's a point you are quite amazingly overlooking. Don't feel bad. Millions of others are overlooking it as well.

If an American is suspected of corruption in a foreign country, it would be perfectly normal ask the other country's government to investigate that American. As for the "international blackmail" part, I assume you mean the temporary withholding of funds. Well, in that regard, the Biden situation and the Trump situation really are quite similar. In both cases, the American administration withheld or threatened to withhold funds unless the government of Ukraine did something that the administration wanted. Moreover, the "something" was somewhat similar. In one case, the Obama administration wanted someone fired because he wasn't doing enough to combat corruption. In the other case, Trump wanted them to investigate a specific allegation of corruption.

The only thing that makes them different is the motive of the American administrations.

And that is why these articles of impeachment are going to go nowhere, and why there will be no electoral fallout for Trump or the Republicans. What Trump did was not even wrong or abnormal if he had done it with a pure heart and a sincere desire to do what he says he wanted to do. So now you are trying to take a perfectly normal action by a president, and say that because you can see into his soul, you know it was corrupt, and we can't wait until the next election to fix the problem caused when the American people voted for the wrong politician.

It's a tough sell.


ETA: I should add that for most people, the "tough sell" will not be convincing them that Trump was motivated by corrupt intent. The difficult part will be convincing them that there are politicians who are not motivated by corrupt intent. In order for them to get behind removing Trump, you would have to convince them not just that he was allowing his political goals to influence policy, but that this is somehow an extraordinary event that demands a drastic remedy.
 
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It's not - in one case, it is the VP doing the negotiations with the full knowledge and backing of the State Department executing Senate-approved polices,
in the other it is a crazy personal lawyer following Conspiracy Theories working with and for people being paid by Russia after having sidelined or fired everyone who might make their secret deal public.
It is the easiest sell ever.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It's not - in one case, it is the VP doing the negotiations with the full knowledge and backing of the State Department executing Senate-approved polices,
in the other it is a crazy personal lawyer following Conspiracy Theories working with and for people being paid by Russia after having sidelined or fired everyone who might make their secret deal public.
It is the easiest sell ever.
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And this level of self delusion just stuns me. It's "the easiest sell ever".

Really? Then why isn't it being sold? Why aren't people buying?

You understand that, don't you? People aren't buying. All the people who hated Trump still hate Trump. All the people who liked Trump still like Trump. The people whose opinions really matter, i.e. the "swing voters" who could conceivably change their minds, are mostly annoyed that you are interrupting their Sportsball shows.
 
It's an easy sell, but if you already bought into the Trump mindset, you are morally broke.

Seriously, how far down the rabbit hole do you have to be to see no discernible difference between Biden and Guiliani?
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It's an easy sell, but if you already bought into the Trump mindset, you are morally broke.

Seriously, how far down the rabbit hole do you have to be to see no discernible difference between Biden and Guiliani?
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It's a game that they are playing. It's better to not engage and instead keep noting how obviously guilty Trump is.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
It's an easy sell, but if you already bought into the Trump mindset, you are morally broke.

Seriously, how far down the rabbit hole do you have to be to see no discernible difference between Biden and Guiliani?
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I think the Giuliani stuff hasn't gotten enough front page treatment. There's some weirdness going on there, but it's really being seen as kind of a side issue.
 
Meadmaker said:
No, there's a point you are quite amazingly overlooking. Don't feel bad. Millions of others are overlooking it as well.

If an American is suspected of corruption in a foreign country, it would be perfectly normal ask the other country's government to investigate that American. As for the "international blackmail" part, I assume you mean the temporary withholding of funds. Well, in that regard, the Biden situation and the Trump situation really are quite similar. In both cases, the American administration withheld or threatened to withhold funds unless the government of Ukraine did something that the administration wanted. Moreover, the "something" was somewhat similar. In one case, the Obama administration wanted someone fired because he wasn't doing enough to combat corruption. In the other case, Trump wanted them to investigate a specific allegation of corruption.

The only thing that makes them different is the motive of the American administrations.

And that is why these articles of impeachment are going to go nowhere, and why there will be no electoral fallout for Trump or the Republicans. What Trump did was not even wrong or abnormal if he had done it with a pure heart and a sincere desire to do what he says he wanted to do. So now you are trying to take a perfectly normal action by a president, and say that because you can see into his soul, you know it was corrupt, and we can't wait until the next election to fix the problem caused when the American people voted for the wrong politician.

It's a tough sell.


ETA: I should add that for most people, the "tough sell" will not be convincing them that Trump was motivated by corrupt intent. The difficult part will be convincing them that there are politicians who are not motivated by corrupt intent. In order for them to get behind removing Trump, you would have to convince them not just that he was allowing his political goals to influence policy, but that this is somehow an extraordinary event that demands a drastic remedy.
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But convincing a group of untrained people of corrupt intent has been the job of prosecutors for two centuries. Some laws have it as a requirement. I don't understand why this one time it is going to be exceptional to do like those other times.
 
Meadmaker said:
If an American is suspected of corruption in a foreign country, it would be perfectly normal ask the other country's government to investigate that American.
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Would it? Can you cite some examples please.

As for the "international blackmail" part, I assume you mean the temporary withholding of funds. Well, in that regard, the Biden situation and the Trump situation really are quite similar.
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Biden was enforcing official government policy through normal diplomatic channels. Trump was asking for a personal favour using his personal lawyer.

Yes, that's similar. Oh wait, no it isn't.

In the other case, Trump wanted them to investigate a specific allegation of corruption.
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Which was already debunked.

What Trump did was not even wrong or abnormal if he had done it with a pure heart and a sincere desire to do what he says he wanted to do.
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Wrong. He solicited aid from a foreign government to help him with a US election. That's illegal, whatever his motive.

So now you are trying to take a perfectly normal action by a president
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Virtually nothing Trump has done is a normal action for a president. Presidents don't normally put children in cages, solicit personal favours from foreign governments, use the presidency for personal profit, keep their tax returns secret, bully sixteen year olds for winning magazine features, employ their own children, override denials of security clearances for their sons in law, take cell phone photos of classified documents for publishing on Twitter, doctor maps with sharpies.... etc etc etc.
 
Meadmaker said:
The Great Zaganza said:
It's not - in one case, it is the VP doing the negotiations with the full knowledge and backing of the State Department executing Senate-approved polices,
in the other it is a crazy personal lawyer following Conspiracy Theories working with and for people being paid by Russia after having sidelined or fired everyone who might make their secret deal public.
It is the easiest sell ever.
Click to expand...

And this level of self delusion just stuns me. It's "the easiest sell ever".

Really? Then why isn't it being sold? Why aren't people buying?

You understand that, don't you? People aren't buying. All the people who hated Trump still hate Trump. All the people who liked Trump still like Trump. The people whose opinions really matter, i.e. the "swing voters" who could conceivably change their minds, are mostly annoyed that you are interrupting their Sportsball shows.
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Welcome home, then.

 
Meadmaker said:
If an American is suspected of corruption in a foreign country, it would be perfectly normal ask the other country's government to investigate that American.
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Hunter Biden is not actually suspected of having committed any crime. That's just defamatory propaganda. Unfortunately, even some of our so-called liberal media have fallen for it, and asked Joe to explain his son's job.
 
jeremyp said:
Would it? Can you cite some examples please.


Biden was enforcing official government policy through normal diplomatic channels. Trump was asking for a personal favour using his personal lawyer.

Yes, that's similar. Oh wait, no it isn't.


Which was already debunked.


Wrong. He solicited aid from a foreign government to help him with a US election. That's illegal, whatever his motive.


Virtually nothing Trump has done is a normal action for a president. Presidents don't normally put children in cages, solicit personal favours from foreign governments, use the presidency for personal profit, keep their tax returns secret, bully sixteen year olds for winning magazine features, employ their own children, override denials of security clearances for their sons in law, take cell phone photos of classified documents for publishing on Twitter, doctor maps with sharpies.... etc etc etc.
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What evidence is there that he did it because of the election?
 
I Am The Scum said:
Hunter Biden is not actually suspected of having committed any crime. That's just defamatory propaganda. Unfortunately, even some of our so-called liberal media have fallen for it, and asked Joe to explain his son's job.
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MAGA chuds live in conspiracy land and are certain there is some prosecutable crime involving Hunter and Joe Biden, which is nonsense.

It's irritating that this right wing narrative makes it difficult to talk about this issue though. Hunter Biden's do-nothing job stinks like corruption, and it would be nice for us to be able to talk about it without playing into right wing conspiracy theories.

It's not crazy to say that hiring a prominent politicians fail-son is a great way to curry favor. At the very least, it's a great way for these companies to feign some sort of political connection.

This reminds me of HRC's wall street "speaking tour" scandal. It was 100% legal, but still sucks. Everyone knew that HRC was going to run, but since she hadn't started her candidacy yet, it was perfectly legal to charge for exorbitant speaking fees. It's perfectly acceptable for the electorate to talk about how this kind of influence peddling is damaging. So yeah, Biden ain't going to jail, but this whole thing really sucks, and we should demand better from our leaders.

Of course, when you have people like Trump who are stealing everything that isn't nailed down, talking about avoiding even the appearance of impropriety seems a bit silly.
 
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Meadmaker said:
If an American is suspected of corruption in a foreign country, it would be perfectly normal ask the other country's government to investigate that American.
Click to expand...

Of course, according to first-hand witness testimony, Trump didn't actually care whether the investigations happened or not. He only cared that they were publicly announced.
 
I Am The Scum said:
Hunter Biden is not actually suspected of having committed any crime. That's just defamatory propaganda. Unfortunately, even some of our so-called liberal media have fallen for it, and asked Joe to explain his son's job.
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And if he was suspected of a crime (which he isn't) there are diplomatic channels that don't include the president's personal lawyer and ambassador to the EU.

Basically, thinking that Biden's actions are equatable to Trump's, or that there might have been some benign purpose to Trump's actions are so stupid that I don't believe many people actually hold these views. Certainly noone on this forum does. The people who claim they do are lying.
 
smartcooky said:
If you had actually been paying attention to international events, you would understand the difference between

a. Biden withholding the release of funds to Ukraine for the national benefit of that country's anti-corruption stance, and

b. Trump withholding the release of funds to Ukraine for the personal benefit of Trump.

Trump and his minions claim that Biden strong-armed the Ukrainian government to fire its top prosecutor, Viktor Shokin in order to thwart an investigation into Burisma, the company tied to his son, Hunter Biden.

The reality is that Shokin was fired for the exact opposite reason Trump sycophants are claiming - it was because Shokin wasn't pursuing corruption among his country's politicians. Another piece of reality for you is that Biden wasn't acting as a lone-gun here. Shokin's lack of action against corruption in Ukraine brought criticism from European countries leading to calls for his removal.

In a very real sense, Joe Biden's action could potentially have placed his own son in the firing line had there been anything untoward in the latter's appointment to the board of Burisma.
Click to expand...
Good summary. A nitpick... True, but the primary motivation would be to benefit the US in the grand scheme.
 
If I was an American official and I suspected another American official of corruption, do you know who I'd ask to investigate? American agencies. Agencies which have the ability themselves to coordinate with the agencies of foreign countries.

But, again, it's entirely moot, because Trump didn't want an investigation, he wanted the announcement of an investigation.
 
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