Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

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varwoche said:
I "enjoy" laughing at this, but I think it says a lot about the state of affairs in the US. Religious nuts are in full ownership of the rank and file GOP. From yesterday's proceedings:
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Indeed, and their cult leader is Donald Trump.

For some reason those are always creepy, disgusting old coots.
 
acbytesla said:
Do you have a clue about our Constitution or US history?

More than 100 articles of Impeachment have been drawn up against various officials in the last 230 years. Less than ten were based on actual crimes.

But if you dont think extorting a foreign power to help your political career isn't a crime than I seriously question your personal integrity.
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I don't care what you think about my personal integrity, so there's that...

Oh, and what Biden did and proudly confessed to isn't relevant to this discussion.
 
acbytesla said:
This is two sides to the same coin just as a sale is. If I buy a vehicle from you for say 10,000 dollars you're also buying 10,000 dollars with a car. No doubt, Trump is extorting Ukraine, but he is also bribing them as well as he is asking for a bribe.

I think people are playing word games to obfuscate the facts. There is no doubt whatsoever that all the components are there including intent that this is bribery. The problem arise out of Trump being President and claims of immunity and the blatant obstruction.
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Extortion is qualitatively different from bribery. That's why there is a different word for it.

"Nice store. Be a shame if something happened to it.", is not the same as soliciting a bribe for services rendered. The components of threat and use of intimidation are what makes the difference.

Trump's request for a "favor" was accompanied with an unqualified threat to the future health and welfare of the country of Ukraine. He was not merely soliciting a bribe.
 
acbytesla said:
Agreed 100 percent. It's bribery, it's extortion, it's blackmail, it's abuse of power, it's obstruction. It doesn't really matter what label you put on it. The question is, was it right for the President to blackmail a foreign leader to smear his political opponent?

<snip>
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That's one thing Trump didn't do. That would suggest that Trump was in possession of some information which would reflect negatively on the character of Zelensky to the degree that he would be willing to provide some service to suppress its release.

That isn't what happened.

Words have meaning, you know. It is a great aid to communication if you were to make some small effort to use them with the meanings which are commonly agreed upon.
 
quadraginta said:
Extortion is qualitatively different from bribery. That's why there is a different word for it.

"Nice store. Be a shame if something happened to it.", is not the same as soliciting a bribe for services rendered. The components of threat and use of intimidation are what makes the difference.

Trump's request for a "favor" was accompanied with an unqualified threat to the future health and welfare of the country of Ukraine. He was not merely soliciting a bribe.
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But that is the wrong place to look when considering impeachment. In fact, the Founders had a broader conception of bribery than what’s in the criminal code. Their understanding was derived from English law, under which bribery was understood as an officeholder’s abuse of the power of an office to obtain a private benefit rather than for the public interest. This definition not only encompasses Trump’s conduct—it practically defines it.​
https://www.lawfareblog.com/constitution-says-bribery-impeachable-what-does-mean
 
Trump Tweets

So after the Democrats gave me no Due Process in the House, no lawyers, no witnesses, no nothing, they now want to tell the Senate how to run their trial. Actually, they have zero proof of anything, they will never even show up. They want out. I want an immediate trial!
 
Sideroxylon said:
But that is the wrong place to look when considering impeachment. In fact, the Founders had a broader conception of bribery than what’s in the criminal code. Their understanding was derived from English law, under which bribery was understood as an officeholder’s abuse of the power of an office to obtain a private benefit rather than for the public interest. This definition not only encompasses Trump’s conduct—it practically defines it.​
https://www.lawfareblog.com/constitution-says-bribery-impeachable-what-does-mean
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I'm not contradicting that. Sure. He solicited a bribe. (And offered one to do so.).For his personal benefit.

But it is trivial pedantry to suggest the this somehow negates the simple fact that he was engaging in extortion as a means to do so.
 
quadraginta said:
That's one thing Trump didn't do. That would suggest that Trump was in possession of some information which would reflect negatively on the character of Zelensky to the degree that he would be willing to provide some service to suppress its release.

That isn't what happened.

Words have meaning, you know. It is a great aid to communication if you were to make some small effort to use them with the meanings which are commonly agreed upon.
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Actually words don't have meanings. Only usages that evolve over time. But you're right. Blackmail is not the right word. Extortion is more precise.
 
BrooklynBaby said:
I don't care what you think about my personal integrity, so there's that...

Oh, and what Biden did and proudly confessed to isn't relevant to this discussion.
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At least we both agree that you don't care about personal integrity.

And nobody is talking about Biden except lying POSs who don't care about the truth.
 
acbytesla said:
And nobody is talking about Biden except lying POSs who don't care about the truth.
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Ii do find it amazing that Trumps release of the ukraine call transcripts is construed as a confession yet Bidens hot mic moment bragging about withholding the release of funds to the same country is completely ignored and thrown under the bus.

It's like folks pushing for Trumps accountabilty for his actions dictate that the other party cannot be held to the same standards... let alone hold a position that is critical of both. This is the prime example of the horrendous polarization going on among all of this.

Bidens case isnt the first or the last of its kind... but sure does take a center stage in the current issues when it comes to double standards regarding accountability
 
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The Great Zaganza said:
Demanding that Trump needs to have committed a crime to be removed is a direct admission that your standards for a Commander in Chief are lower than for a burger-flipper.
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I think perhaps that's as it should be. The tenure of a burger-flipper is tenuous, and depends on many factors regarding how the employer wants to be perceived by the public. The tenure of a president ought to be immune to any but the most serious charges.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
Ii do find it amazing that Trumps release of the ukraine call transcripts is construed as a confession yet Bidens hot mic moment bragging about withholding the release of EU funds in cooperation with all of the EU countries to the same country run by the previous government of proven crooks who are now cooking up excuses for Donald Trump via Rudi Guliani is completely ignored and thrown under the bus.

It's like folks pushing for Trumps accountabilty for his actions dictate that the other party cannot be held to the same standards... let alone hold a position that is critical of both. This is the prime example of the horrendous polarization going on among all of this
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One of these things is not like the other.
 
bruto said:
I think perhaps that's as it should be. The tenure of a burger-flipper is tenuous, and depends on many factors regarding how the employer wants to be perceived by the public. The tenure of a president ought to be immune to any but the most serious charges.
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Yeah, what Trump has done as testified in the impeachment hearings is very serious. The normalisation going on is lobsters in a pot stuff.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
Ii do find it amazing that Trumps release of the ukraine call transcripts is construed as a confession yet Bidens hot mic moment bragging about withholding the release of funds to the same country is completely ignored and thrown under the bus.

It's like folks pushing for Trumps accountabilty for his actions dictate that the other party cannot be held to the same standards... let alone hold a position that is critical of both. This is the prime example of the horrendous polarization going on among all of this.

Bidens case isnt the first or the last of its kind... but sure does take a center stage in the current issues when it comes to double standards regarding accountability
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That's because Biden didn't say anything incriminating. In contrast the President of the United States withheld military aid of an American ally just to smear a political opponent.

You can deflect all day long that this is about Biden when in fact it is about Trump abusing his office.
 
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Whoops! Is the base crumbling??

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/19/trump-evangelical-christian-magazine-impeachment

Christianity Today, the evangelical Christian magazine founded by televangelist Billy Graham, called for Donald Trump’s removal from office following the president’s impeachment, marking a significant split from what has typically been Trump’s staunch base.

The editor-in-chief, Mark Galli, wrote: “The facts in this instance are unambiguous: the president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents.

“That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral,” he wrote.
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That could turn some of his base you would think. At the very least make for some very interesting debate among Evangelicals, some of whom might agree.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
Ii do find it amazing that Trumps release of the ukraine call transcripts is construed as a confession yet Bidens hot mic moment bragging about withholding the release of funds to the same country is completely ignored and thrown under the bus.
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The two actions are very different. Biden's were those of the stated official US policy, State Department, and international community. Trump's were in violation of US policy and unbeknownst to those State Department officials specifically tasked with US policy toward Ukraine.
 
Grizzly Bear said:
Ii do find it amazing that Trumps release of the ukraine call transcripts is construed as a confession yet Bidens hot mic moment bragging about withholding the release of funds to the same country is completely ignored and thrown under the bus.

It's like folks pushing for Trumps accountabilty for his actions dictate that the other party cannot be held to the same standards... let alone hold a position that is critical of both. This is the prime example of the horrendous polarization going on among all of this.

Bidens case isnt the first or the last of its kind... but sure does take a center stage in the current issues when it comes to double standards regarding accountability
Click to expand...

I must have missed the part where Biden pressured a foreign country into manufacturing dirt on a political rival. Can you fill me in on the details?
 
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