Cont: House Impeachment Inquiry - part 2

[Minoosh]

The question you should be asking yourself is whether we can believe that something is true just because Trump says it is.

I believe it's true that it's bugging him. He thought he'd be able to control the timetable. Hell yes, that would bother a narcissistic **** like Trump.

Maybe you explained earlier but I don't remember why you think Pelosi's move was an own-goal. Bugging Trump is a nice side benefit, but in itself probably isn't a valid enough reason for her actions. But her desire to see witnesses called is eminently valid.

You must remember, it's not certain that McConnell and Graham speak for all GOP senators. Some of them might want witnessess, because a one-day show trial with no evidence or witnesses could hurt them at home. Some of them have elections coming up and all of them have Democratic constituents. Even some Republicans who are tired of Trump.

I think Pelosi's move makes sense. And more evidence is already surfacing.

 

[Marcus]

Senators can't ask follow-up questions directly of witnesses. But House Managers can. Senators must write them down and the Chief Justice asks their questions.

Thanks, I didn't know this.


Edit: As a follow up to this line of thought, why bother with the depositions instead having the witnesses appear in front of the Senate?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Maybe you explained earlier but I don't remember why you think Pelosi's move was an own-goal.

Because the one thing we know for sure McConnell isn't going to allow is a fair trial. So she's not going to accomplish that.

The only battle left at the moment is the court of public opinion. And the narrative has shifted from "the Democrats playing by the rules and the Republicans running scared and obstructing as much as possible" to "the Republicans playing by the rules and the Democrats running scared and obstructing as much as possible".

 

[Craig4]

Since the Trump trash in the Senate won't allow Trump to be removed from office, maybe the Dems should be open to a censure option. An official rebuke without removal might bring more vulnerable Republicans on board. An official rebuke still damages Trump going into the election and could give some Republicans who aren't face down in the Kool Aide room to maneuver.

 

[Mike!]

Since the Trump trash in the Senate won't allow Trump to be removed from office, maybe the Dems should be open to a censure option. An official rebuke without removal might bring more vulnerable Republicans on board. An official rebuke still damages Trump going into the election and could give some Republicans who aren't face down in the Kool Aide room to maneuver.

We interrupt this thread to point out this excellently inadvertent turn of a phrase.
I can just hear a voice over from a hard boiled film nor detective saying it even now, "...They were found face down in the Kool Aide room..."
Awesome.
We now return you to our perpetually polarized political parlance, still in progress.

Merry Christmas, my friends!

 

[Paul2]

After a long time of Mueller revelations, indictments, and now the impeachment hearings, it hasn't swayed any substantial part of the US public. What makes you think that it's going to happen despite these observations?

You have to play the cards you are dealt and try to gain any advantage that you can.

 

[Paul2]

Because the one thing we know for sure McConnell isn't going to allow is a fair trial.

McConnell is not in complete control, though. All and Democrats and 4 Republican Senators can change the rules of the trial in the middle of the trial.

 

[Belz...]

You have to play the cards you are dealt and try to gain any advantage that you can.

That's a nice platitude but, what does it have to do with my post, there?

 

[newyorkguy]

If Trump doesn't want to release his tax returns, why does he keep insisting that he does?

Well, that's a question I hope his more sane supporters start asking themselves. I'd like to put that exact question on a billboard, starting now, JAQ...

A couple of the guys at work who support Trump talked about this.

• Tim "Release his tax returns? Why should he? None of them do."
• Bill "Some of them have, though."
• Tim "And you think those were the real returns?"
• Bill "Oh hell no."

Of course the problem Trump faces is, neither of these two guys will vote for him in 2020. They say they just won't bother to vote. Why? Tim says Trump has turned out to be no different than any other politician. That's he's all talk. Bill, who is in management, does not like the tariffs Trump has imposed. He says it reveals, "Trump is clueless about business."

It's been pointed out here that Trump refers to how much the tariffs are costing China when in reality the charges are paid by the importer (US businesses) not the exporter (Chinese businesses). Bill understands that all too well and it drives him crazy that Trump keeps saying it.

 

[acbytesla]

The United States of America is a relatively young country, less than 250 years old. Most other countries in the world have long realised that a government based on a system which politicians feel duty-bound to follow the rules and act in an honourable manner, in the first instance, requires that those politicians be honourable.

I think Americans might be just waking up and becoming dimly aware that their system has been wholly unprepared for an unscrupulous, out-of-control law-breaking President and the bunch of like-minded people he has surrounded himself with. Trump is not the cause of what America has become, he is the result!

The USA is often called "a Nation of Laws, not of Men" (John Adams), but I think the Senate should take careful note, not of the words of their Founders, but of the words of American poet and author, Ambrose Bierce..

"A nation that will not enforce its laws has no claim to the respect and allegiance of its people."

I get your point. But the United States is not a young country. It's the second oldest Constitutional democracy on the planet. Some would argue the oldest.

 

[Babbylonian]

A couple of the guys at work who support Trump talked about this.

• Tim "Release his tax returns? Why should he? None of them do."
• Bill "Some of them have, though."
• Tim "And you think those were the real returns?"
• Bill "Oh hell no."

Of course the problem Trump faces is, neither of these two guys will vote for him in 2020. They say they just won't bother to vote. Why? Tim says Trump has turned out to be no different than any other politician. That's he's all talk. Bill, who is in management, does not like the tariffs Trump has imposed. He says it reveals, "Trump is clueless about business."

It's been pointed out here that Trump refers to how much the tariffs are costing China when in reality the charges are paid by the importer (US businesses) not the exporter (Chinese businesses). Bill understands that all too well and it drives him crazy that Trump keeps saying it.

So, Tim and Bill didn't vote for Trump because they're idiots. They're just jerks.

 

[acbytesla]

Because the one thing we know for sure McConnell isn't going to allow is a fair trial. So she's not going to accomplish that.

The only battle left at the moment is the court of public opinion. And the narrative has shifted from "the Democrats playing by the rules and the Republicans running scared and obstructing as much as possible" to "the Republicans playing by the rules and the Democrats running scared and obstructing as much as possible".

I don't think the narrative has shifted to that. That is what the GOP is saying. Not the media in general.

 

[acbytesla]

After a long time of Mueller revelations, indictments, and now the impeachment hearings, it hasn't swayed any substantial part of the US public. What makes you think that it's going to happen despite these observations?

I think it has. The question is what do you consider "substantial" ? A shift of a couple of points beomes a Democratic landslide.

 

[newyorkguy]

So, Tim and Bill didn't vote for Trump because they're idiots. They're just jerks.

Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes, your answer is the same - it still doesn't actually address what I said. Well, feel free to continue talking past me. I'm not going to bother any more.

I'm not talking past you, I don't agree with you.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

And the Republicans wouldn't do something that would look bad?

Clearly McConnell doesn't care, and can make up an easy excuse that reading the Articles is why he changed his mind. But he does have a problem in that he can't afford to lose many Republican Senators. They do vote on his plans.

So I think it's unclear if McConnell would lie and change his mind after receiving the Articles.

 

[Paul2]

That's a nice platitude but, what does it have to do with my post, there?

The advantage that might be gained, to a large or small extent, is a change in public opinion away from the Repubs and toward the Dems if Pelosi presses the point that the trial should be fair, and a fair trial is one of those cards that you have, so it should be played.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

After a long time of Mueller revelations, indictments, and now the impeachment hearings, it hasn't swayed any substantial part of the US public. What makes you think that it's going to happen despite these observations?

Barr and the Rebuglicans effectively walled Trump off from any consequences of Mueller's work.

This time it's not just directly connected, it's clear he's running the show.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Because the one thing we know for sure McConnell isn't going to allow is a fair trial. So she's not going to accomplish that.

There are levels in between.

The only battle left at the moment is the court of public opinion. And the narrative has shifted from "the Democrats playing by the rules and the Republicans running scared and obstructing as much as possible" to "the Republicans playing by the rules and the Democrats running scared and obstructing as much as possible".

I don't know where you get this from because that simply is not happening here.

Democrats are happy Pelosi has a spine. They love it, her standing up to McConnell and Trump.

 

[Norman Alexander]

Barr and the Rebuglicans effectively walled Trump off from any consequences of Mueller's work.

This time it's not just directly connected, it's clear he's running the show.

It's also clear from his demented rambling speeches about "windmills" and stuff that he isn't. Trump is not in control of himself, let alone the situation. It's his handlers who are in control of him: Miller, Grisham, Guliani, etc. And they are in constant touch with Turtle Mitch, who is also shamelessly malevolent but not notably insane yet.

So where Mitch says he is "in synch with the White House", this is true because he is the one running the show, not them. The arrangement seems very much to be that he is telling them what to do. So they are synched.