Homosexuality is a choice

[Marduk]

So which am I?.

pre op M2f homo tg

 

[SnakeTongue]

As for gender and gender identity, there are people who experience change over time with those as well. Some people who are genderfluid, for example. http://queersunited.blogspot.com/2009/03/word-of-gay-genderfluid.html

Gender and gender identity?

It is not such thing of "gender identity".

The word gender imply identity.

Using your concept, I would say:

- I am a male (gender) and my identity is male (gender again?)

- I am a male (gender) and my identity is female (gender again and now different?)

The only conclusion that I can draw from your own definition is that you are confusing "gender" with "gender identity disorder", two completely different concepts:

What is gender identity disorder?

A person with a gender identity disorder is a person who strongly identifies with the other sex. The individual may identify with the opposite sex to the point of believing that he/she is, in fact, a member of the other sex who is trapped in the wrong body. This causes that person to experience serious discomfort with his/her own biological sex orientation. The gender identity disorder causes problems for this person in school, work or social settings. This disorder is different from transvestism or transvestic fetishism where cross-dressing occurs for sexual pleasure, but the transvestite does not identify with the other sex.

http://www.athealth.com/Consumer/disorders/GenderIden.html

 

[Thunder]

SnakeTongue- do you remember the moment when you made the conscious choice to be attracted to women and not men?

where were you? how old were you?

 

[SnakeTongue]

SnakeTongue- do you remember the moment when you made the conscious choice to be attracted to women and not men?

where were you? how old were you?

Edited by LibraryLady: 

Edited for civility and addressing the arguer, not the argument.

(Look like Thunder was unable to refute my arguments/evidence and now he/she wish challenge the arguments/evidence using sophistic questions).

 

[Thunder]

Thunder, do you remember the moment when you made the conscious choice to be a "troll" attracted to my character?

um..it is your argument that homosexuality is a choice.

so the logical conclusion of this is that heterosexuality is also, a choice.

I only wished to learn at what day & time & location you chose to be a heterosexual.

Personally, I remember being attracted to girls as early as the 2nd grade. Though at least for me, it was NOT a choice. I simply was this way.

 

[SnakeTongue]

um..it is your argument that homosexuality is a choice.

Not exactly. I am still try to understand the definitions of sexuality and that is why I have been focus on an objective debate about this subject.

From all different arguments made in this thread, I am drawing few conclusions.

One of this conclusion is about sexual orientation and power of choice.

I will made a conclusive definition of what I had understand in few days.

so the logical conclusion of this is that heterosexuality is also, a choice.

You find this logical because you assert homosexuality as a concept in the opposite pole of the concept of heterosexuality.

I deny such opposition because I understand homosexuality as a sexual divergence from the original heterosexuality.

I only wished to learn at what day & time & location you chose to be a heterosexual.

I am also curious to know who you are. I think everyone in the JREF community is an interesting person.

But to avoid subjectivity and confusion, I prefer do not ask people's life details.

Personally, I remember being attracted to girls as early as the 2nd grade. Though at least for me, it was NOT a choice. I simply was this way.

Thunder, let's exercise your critical thinking.

I assume that you are an adult male.

You told that you was attracted to girls.

Do you still are attracted to girls?

If yes, how do you deal with such attraction in public places?

If not, how such attraction had changed during your life time?

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

Gender and gender identity?

It is not such thing of "gender identity".
=QUOTE]






Homosexual behavior has been observed all throughout the animal kingdom, among primates, elephants, whales, and other mammals. It's natural, and nothing to be ashamed about.

If being gay is a choice, then you must also feel being straight is a choice.
People who obsess over pushing their beliefs that being gay is not natural tend to be closeted, and have self loathing issues.

I'm gay, and I did not choose to be gay- I was born gay. I am a man, but have never been attracted to women. If you think that people choose to be gay, then you must think every lesbian secretly lusts after men, and every gay man wants to sleep with women. I know some lesbians who would vomit at the thought of sex with a man.
Did you choose to be straight, or were you born that way?

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

SnakeTongue, lets start on the base that you are right and homosexuality is a choice. That means anyone can choose to be a homosexual by their own free will. Fine.

Scenario: I've kidnapped you and I'm pointing a gun at you. I say "Become a homosexual now or I shoot you in the head"

What do you do?

Do you concede my demand and become a homosexual or do you have me shoot you?

(Please notice this is not the same as forcing you to have homosexual sex, which does not require you to actually like it. You can have sex forced and in fact, that's what rape is all about. What I'm asking you is if you can decide to feel attracted to a gender you didn't originally feel attracted to, out of pure willful choice on your part)

 

[Alan]

Gender and gender identity?

It is not such thing of "gender identity".

The word gender imply identity.

Using your concept, I would say:

- I am a male (gender) and my identity is male (gender again?)

- I am a male (gender) and my identity is female (gender again and now different?)

The only conclusion that I can draw from your own definition is that you are confusing "gender" with "gender identity disorder", two completely different concepts:

Gender identity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
Gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

"Gender" can be applied to words, acts, features, people and more. "Gender identity" refers to how people identify themselves.

A person can have a gender identity, regardless of whether their identity is congruous with their biological sex (so I was not referring to "gender identity disorder").

I ask you to start a new thread with this topic if you insist on continuing it, because it is an off-topic distraction.

 

[TraneWreck]

Homosexual behavior has been observed all throughout the animal kingdom, among primates, elephants, whales, and other mammals. It's natural, and nothing to be ashamed about.

If being gay is a choice, then you must also feel being straight is a choice.
People who obsess over pushing their beliefs that being gay is not natural tend to be closeted, and have self loathing issues.

I'm gay, and I did not choose to be gay- I was born gay. I am a man, but have never been attracted to women. If you think that people choose to be gay, then you must think every lesbian secretly lusts after men, and every gay man wants to sleep with women. I know some lesbians who would vomit at the thought of sex with a man.
Did you choose to be straight, or were you born that way?

Here's a video of a chimp *********** the hell out of a frog:



I think that explains a lot.

 

[Alan]

Thunder, let's exercise your critical thinking.

I assume that you are an adult male.

You told that you was attracted to girls.

Do you still are attracted to girls?

If yes, how do you deal with such attraction in public places?

If not, how such attraction had changed during your life time?

I will comment on this before Thunder does, if that's okay.

As I wrote earlier, there is sexual fluidity over time (in things like acts they want to do, and features like body shape or hair colour, or age that they are attracted to).

I infer that you specify "girls" to specifically mean underage.

A person does not wake up when 16 and think "I should choose not to be attracted to 15 year olds anymore" and then that happens. It happens by itself over time, just like other factors. Somebody who is underage being attracted to people of their age and then growing up and no longer being attracted to people of that initial age is not evidence of a choice taking place.

The weather changes, but not because somebody chooses for it to rain or snow.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Gender identity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
Gender: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

"Gender" can be applied to words, acts, features, people and more.

Gender = Gender

A = A

"I gave my daughter a female doll"

A is A: Aristotle's Law of Identity

The concept of identity is important because it makes explicit that reality has a definite nature. Since reality has an identity, it is knowable. Since it exists in a particular way, it has no contradictions.

http://importanceofphilosophy.com/Metaphysics_Identity.html

"Gender identity" refers to how people identify themselves.

A person can have a gender identity, regardless of whether their identity is congruous with their biological sex (so I was not referring to "gender identity disorder").

Yes, a person can have a gender identity. Female or male.

Biological sex = gender

Male/Female = Male/Female

A = A

The concept of "gender [and an] identity" is different of gender, because gender imply identity.

Hence, applying the "gender identity" concept as one entity, would be:

gender = gender identity

Male = Female

A = B

This is a language construct, with no basis so ever in any biological device in the human nature. It is indeed a useful definition to be used inside a specific psychologic and sociologic context, when debating about the disorders of the human mind.

But outside such context, it just a definition without objectivity, a false base to support the deviances of the sexual preferences.

A excuse to mutilate the body.

From the Wikipedia, the first three references do not have a clear definitions so ever:

^ "Neither" here is assumed as meaning either an undescribed form of an alternate gender Spectrum (unrelated to the male-female one) or completely lacking a gender (not to be confused with asexuality). A fairly common condition is being accepting of belonging to the traditional male-female spectrum yet are always skeptical or reject what they or others identify them as, and thus are in a constant state of flux. However, if meant in the broader sense, it can mean they are somehow above or beyond any meaningful sociological or cultural classification and outside the realm of science.

"I gave a female doll to my daughter, but I had to explain here that the doll would wish shave off the breasts because it thinks was a male inside a female body."

Gender Identity Disorder

A = B

I ask you to start a new thread with this topic if you insist on continuing it, because it is an off-topic distraction.

Not, this is pertinent to the subject of this thread. What should I?

gender
c.1300, from O.Fr. gendre, from stem of L. genus (gen. generis) "kind, sort, gender," also "sex" (see genus); used to translate from Gk. Aristotle's grammatical term genos. As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963. Gender-bender is first attested 1980, with reference to pop star David Bowie.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=gender&searchmode=none

 

[SnakeTongue]

Homosexual behavior has been observed all throughout the animal kingdom, among primates, elephants, whales, and other mammals. It's natural, and nothing to be ashamed about.

Are you implying that such animals have a "gender identity disorder"?

"Natural" is not equivalent to "nature".

Is Homosexuality Natural?

No, it is not. One can argue that homosexuality occurs in nature and is not the result either of artifice or divine intervention, therefore it must be natural. But this is not what most people mean by natural. This is known as the fallacy of equivocation, using a word in two different contexts in order wilfully to confuse the issue. Murder is also natural, so is cancer, so is bubonic plague.

http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/barons_guide_1.html

If being gay is a choice, then you must also feel being straight is a choice.
People who obsess over pushing their beliefs that being gay is not natural tend to be closeted, and have self loathing issues.

I'm gay, and I did not choose to be gay- I was born gay. I am a man, but have never been attracted to women. If you think that people choose to be gay, then you must think every lesbian secretly lusts after men, and every gay man wants to sleep with women. I know some lesbians who would vomit at the thought of sex with a man.
Did you choose to be straight, or were you born that way?

"Straw man" argument?

 

[SnakeTongue]

Here's a video of a chimp *********** the hell out of a frog:



I think that explains a lot.

Frogsexualism!

I am glad that no biological body will born from that.

 

[JFrankA]

Gender = Gender

A = A

"I gave my daughter a female doll"



Yes, a person can have a gender identity. Female or male.

Biological sex = gender

Male/Female = Male/Female

A = A

The concept of "gender [and an] identity" is different of gender, because gender imply identity.

Hence, applying the "gender identity" concept as one entity, would be:

gender = gender identity

Male = Female

A = B

This is a language construct, with no basis so ever in any biological device in the human nature. It is indeed a useful definition to be used inside a specific psychologic and sociologic context, when debating about the disorders of the human mind.

But outside such context, it just a definition without objectivity, a false base to support the deviances of the sexual preferences.

A excuse to mutilate the body.

From the Wikipedia, the first three references do not have a clear definitions so ever:



"I gave a female doll to my daughter, but I had to explain here that the doll would wish shave off the breasts because it thinks was a male inside a female body."

Gender Identity Disorder

A = B



Not, this is pertinent to the subject of this thread. What should I?

Again, you are attempting to mix mathematics and psychology to try to prove what you believe.

I'm sorry, what you came up with is pure gibberish.

 

[JFrankA]

Are you implying that such animals have a "gender identity disorder"?

"Natural" is not equivalent to "nature".

Is Homosexuality Natural?

No, it is not. One can argue that homosexuality occurs in nature and is not the result either of artifice or divine intervention, therefore it must be natural. But this is not what most people mean by natural. This is known as the fallacy of equivocation, using a word in two different contexts in order wilfully to confuse the issue. Murder is also natural, so is cancer, so is bubonic plague.

http://www.infotextmanuscripts.org/barons_guide_1.html

"Straw man" argument?

Do you even check your sources, or do you just find someone who agrees with you and post it?

And sorry, you're wrong. What Titanic Explorer is asking is not a straw man.

 

[JFrankA]

ST, I am into BDSM. I am a Dominate. There are many people I know who are submissive. Few of those submissive people I know love pain. I mean really really really get aroused by being in pain.

Do you think that this sexual preference is chosen? Does someone who is a masochist chosen to be in pain?

If someone does choose to be aroused by being in pain, why would the do that? We are talking hurtful, bruising, bloody and if not careful, dangerous injuries just because they chose that sexual preference.

Or, is it because that person doesn't have a choice and pain is just the thing that makes her/him aroused?

 

[TraneWreck]

Are you implying that such animals have a "gender identity disorder"?

"Natural" is not equivalent to "nature".

So, when that chimp decides he's going to rape the frog, is that natural? Or have chimpanzees suffered a similar fall from grace like we humans?

Did some dumb chimp eat a banana he wasn't supposed to a couple thousand years ago thereby releasing evil into the chimp world and creating a class of frog-humpers?

 

[Tinfoil Hater]

So, when that chimp decides he's going to rape the frog, is that natural? Or have chimpanzees suffered a similar fall from grace like we humans?

Did some dumb chimp eat a banana he wasn't supposed to a couple thousand years ago thereby releasing evil into the chimp world and creating a class of frog-humpers?

No adult could be this infantile.

 

[DC]

SnakeTongue, do you decide whom you find sexual attractive and whom not?