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Homosexuality can be cured - say orthodox rabbis and calvinists

ddt

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ddt
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In December 2011, 162 orthodox rabbis and "health professionals" have signed a "Declaration On The Torah Approach To Homosexuality". Therein, they claim that
From a Torah perspective, the question whether homosexual inclinations and behaviors are changeable is extremely relevant. The concept that G-d created a human being who is unable to find happiness in a loving relationship unless he violates a biblical prohibition is neither plausible nor acceptable. G-d is loving and merciful. Struggles, and yes, difficult struggles, along with healing and personal growth are part and parcel of this world. Impossible, life long, Torah prohibited situations with no achievable solutions are not.

We emphatically reject the notion that a homosexually inclined person cannot overcome his or her inclination and desire. Behaviors are changeable.
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The signatories are mainly from the USA, but there are also some from Israel, the UK and other countries. New York-based Rabbi Aryeh Ralbag, is not only a US rabbi, but also chief rabbi of the Amsterdam orthodox community. When it came out he also signed, there was outrage in the Amsterdam community. The chairman has suspended him and asked him to resign his post. Mention of his Amsterdam post has already been erased from the list of signatures. (link)

In an interview with the Dutch newspaper NRC today, Ralbag says: "The declaration is one of love and compassion". And he doesn't understand the outrage: "If we had called to stone gays, it would be different. However, we offer them hope."

In other news, a Dutch newspaper found out that a orthodox-protestant health organization "Different" has been providing "treatment" for homosexuality for years and these are covered by the Dutch universal health care system. Organizations of psychologists and doctors have called this treatment ineffective and dangerous.

Parliament was livid - except of course the small ultra-orthodox Reformed Political Party - and has asked the Health Minister to take steps. (link)

One of the former trainers of this "cure" was interviewed for the 8 o'clock news. He related that he had lived 10 years according to the rules of the cure and only got more miserable. He had stopped 20 years ago and now is happy in a committed relationship.

The management of "Different" claims their treatment helps their clients with their psychical suffering and that its effect has been proven. A manager even claimed that they "cure" 30% of their clients from their homosexuality.

Here's an idea: how about telling them that being gay is not wrong?
When will they ever learn?
 
Here's an idea: how about telling them that being gay is not wrong?
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Cuz leviticus says otherwise, and that carries far more weight to them than, you know, compassion.
 
We emphatically reject the notion that a homosexually inclined person cannot overcome his or her inclination and desire. Behaviors are changeable.
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It strikes me that these two sentences have nothing to do with one another.
 
Jon. said:
We emphatically reject the notion that a homosexually inclined person cannot overcome his or her inclination and desire. Behaviors are changeable.
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It strikes me that these two sentences have nothing to do with one another.
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Actually it makes sense in a perverse way. Many of these people who believe in "change" think it is basically is all a matter of behavior and if you change that you've "changed", and it really doesn't matter if your pestered by those feelings and inclinations still.
 
sounds like those idiots need to be cured from their religious delusions.
 
Lowpro said:
Cuz leviticus says otherwise, and that carries far more weight to them than, you know, compassion.
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I'm pretty sure that the NYC rabbi reads the same Tanakh as the Dutch orthodox Jews who rallied against his claims. And the journalists of the mainstream protestant paper that came with the revelation that this "treatment" is being reimbursed from the UHC plan read the same Bible as the people from that orthodox-protestant "healthcare provider"; as well as the mainstream christian-democrat MP Mirjam Sterk who called this reimbursement bizarre (link in Dutch), and her colleague Toorenburg who finds it "strange when they try to change someone's sexual orientation" (link in Dutch).

They all read the same Leviticus, but draw different conclusions. How so? (that's more of a rhetorical question).
 
Lowpro said:
Cuz leviticus says otherwise, and that carries far more weight to them than, you know, compassion.
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Of course Leviticus is similarly opposed to eating shrimp and wearing cotton/poly blend shirts, yet changing those behaviors doesn't seem as important.
 
ddt said:
I'm pretty sure that the NYC rabbi reads the same Tanakh as the Dutch orthodox Jews who rallied against his claims. And the journalists of the mainstream protestant paper that came with the revelation that this "treatment" is being reimbursed from the UHC plan read the same Bible as the people from that orthodox-protestant "healthcare provider"; as well as the mainstream christian-democrat MP Mirjam Sterk who called this reimbursement bizarre (link in Dutch), and her colleague Toorenburg who finds it "strange when they try to change someone's sexual orientation" (link in Dutch).

They all read the same Leviticus, but draw different conclusions. How so? (that's more of a rhetorical question).
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I think because there is a particular importance in Judaic culture to interpret and reinterpret the Tanakh/Talmud continually. While the words of the Rambam maintain a literalist view of Judaic scripture, many other jews continue to reassess their holy books.

I even recall there being a rabinnic tradition of purposefully reinterpreting or even denying scripture in terms of the current state of the world. I don't remember what it's called; it's got one of those weird jewish names.
 
i really wish a LGBT group would open a center that cures religious people from their religious delusion. mabye then a few of them might understand how incredible offensive such garbage is.
 
Well, I emphatically reject the notion that a Judaically inclined person cannot overcome his or her inclination and desire. Behaviors are changeable.
 
DC said:
i really wish a LGBT group would open a center that cures religious people from their religious delusion. mabye then a few of them might understand how incredible offensive such garbage is.
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Or better still-offer to cure people's heterosexuality!
 
homosexuality can be cured? oh not that age-old religious-based primitive deluded bollocks yet again. You cannot reform biology, yet people who should know better still maintain that they can.
 
It’s a bit delusional, believing that the very essence of someone’s sexuality can be reversed. It seems that every time I read about a religious institution talking about “curing homosexuality” they more than likely apply classic and operant conditioning without considering the repercussions of repression if spontaneous regeneration does not take place.
Personally I do not see why there is so much racket made about something as meaningless as sexual preferences when so many big events are constantly taking place. Especially in the 21st century where homosexuality is slowly leaving taboo and entering into the norms of society.
 
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In a sense, the nutbar "health professionals" are correct.

Any behavior can be changed.

Sexuality, habits, gender, even thoughts and personality can be changed. It all depends on what you are willing to do to change... or willing to do to someone else to change them.

The biggest question is "What changes should be made.. and why?"

At that point, it's a question of what you value most. If it's religious beliefs.. then maybe the cost of behavior modification is worth it. If you have other values.. then maybe not.
 
Lowpro said:
Cuz leviticus says otherwise, and that carries far more weight to them than, you know, compassion.
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why is it called the book of leviticus anyways, besides if they insist on following the leviticus laws, why dont they wear colthes made with only one cloth or kill ppl who work on saturday:confused:
 
This is and always has been so bizarre to me. If they're not hurting me or anyone else, what difference does it make if people want to have sex swinging from a trapeze in their garage? It's none of my business, or anybody else's either.

I remember when I was in fifth or sixth grade reading a newspaper story about a government official who had to resign because his homosexuality became public. I first had to have "homosexual" explained (hey, it was a different era) and then demanded to know why that meant the guy had to quit his job. It was explained that it was because if anyone knew he were homosexual he could be blackmailed for information, and I guess he was in a pretty sensitive government job. That confused me even more because now his homosexuality wasn't a secret (I had just read about it in the newspaper, for God's sake!) so how could he be blackmailed?
 
RobDegraves said:
In a sense, the nutbar "health professionals" are correct.

Any behavior can be changed.

Sexuality, habits, gender, even thoughts and personality can be changed. It all depends on what you are willing to do to change... or willing to do to someone else to change them.

The biggest question is "What changes should be made.. and why?"

At that point, it's a question of what you value most. If it's religious beliefs.. then maybe the cost of behavior modification is worth it. If you have other values.. then maybe not.
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agreed. but some things are hotwired into the individual. Sexual attraction, for example, is something endemic to that particular individual. You can't fundamentally alter what that person actually finds sexually attractive. You can only fruitlessly try to condition that person to think otherwise. Religious belief, however, is acquired. It is not a biological property. We are not born with it, and thus it can be influenced through exposure to knowledge and rationality which in turn may influence the beliefs and behaviour of that individual. If you ask "What changes should be made and why" i would suggest that no changes should be made other than exposing people to the truth.
 
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