Homosexuality and the Bible

No, The Bible does not condemn homosexuality. At worst, it condemns certain homogenital acts, between "real men."

Homogenital? Did you just make that word up?

DICTIONARY: No entry found for homogenital.

Now the English word, Homosexuality...
DICTIONARY: Sexual activity with another of the same sex.

Is overtly and obviously condemned. I don't know why you're ignoring the straight, obvious and correct read of the verse in Leviticus. If you can ignore this verse than why not just ignore the whole damned Bible? Why listen to PC conmen pushing an agenda - check the original Jewish commentaries on the Torah.

The FACT is that the Bible DOES condemn homosexuality. Either accept it or just don't believe the Bible - simple as that.

I recommend... don't believe the Bible!

Rape?

If a Jewish man rapes a Jewish woman - he isn't killed; he is forced to marry the girl he raped! Oh, the girl doesn't really have a choice in the matter... "Mr and Mrs Savage-rapist!"
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Jewish men are allowed to "forcibly marry" foreign virgins.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Ouch!
 
Homogenital? Did you just make that word up?

Now the English word, Homosexuality...Is overtly and obviously condemned.

I do not wish to argue over the word "homogenital," a proper and common English word for this type of discusuuion. If you are more comfortable calling them "homosexual acts" instead, that's fine.

But I won't let you get away with the slight-of-hand substituting of a homosexual person with a homogenital/homosexual act. It is only certain acts that the Bible condemns. It never condemns a person for being what we would today call "gay."

Sun-eunuchs were often the greates coutiers and held the highest offices -- they were the most trusted and revered persons in the kingdom after the royals and the priesthood. The Bible mentions no less than eleven eunuchs by name, all of which championed the cause of a man or woman of God before the king.

The Bible never condemns a sun-eunuch because of what he is. It does forbid man-made eunuchs from certain temple offices and even from attending certain rites, but never sun-eunuchs.

Rape?

If a Jewish man rapes a Jewish woman - he isn't killed; he is forced to marry the girl he raped! Oh, the girl doesn't really have a choice in the matter... "Mr and Mrs Savage-rapist!"
Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Jewish men are allowed to "forcibly marry" foreign virgins.
Deuteronomy 21:10-14

Only if the victim is jewish.

I have to thank you both. After I wrote a response to this, I found that my response pointed out a weakness in my main argument. This means I will have to re-think my reasoning on the whole issue. While I don't expect that my final conclusions will change that much, just the path used to reach them, I have to allow for the strong chance that they might. After all it is dishonest to argue to a predetermined conclusion, rather than to wherever the evidence leads.

My initial response to your posts was that the principles of rape and non-consentual sex were well established, even if specific examples were not held to be rape, or in other specific examples it was not the victim who held the right to grant or withhold the consent.

I realized that it is possible to say exactly the same thing with regard to expanding the levitical prohibitions to all homosexual acts. So, on what principle did I agree with the expansion of the one and disagree with the expansion of the other?

It is a question that deserves a well thought out answer.
 
So do we agree that homosexuality as an act is condemned in the Bible?

We can also agree that (as many rabbis state) - being gay is not condemned in the Torah as long as one does not act on these urges.

Thanks.
 
Templar said:
So do we agree that homosexuality as an act is condemned in the Bible?

We can also agree that (as many rabbis state) - being gay is not condemned in the Torah as long as one does not act on these urges.

Thanks.
Sorta like, it's O.K. to be a psychopath as long as you don't act on your urges..


On the Christian side of the house, what about Jesus' teaching, that thinking about it, is the same as doing it?
 
Sorta like, it's O.K. to be a psychopath as long as you don't act on your urges..

Coincidentally, that's my problem.

On the Christian side of the house, what about Jesus' teaching, that thinking about it, is the same as doing it?

I believe that Matt 5-7 (Sermon on the Mount) was Jesus telling everyone that no matter how closely they followed the law - they were still failing and needed him.

If we believe this is true (I don't) than looking with lust at a man or a woman would pretty much be the same evil. Adultery and Homosexual sex are both punishable by death.
 
Templar said:
So do we agree that homosexuality as an act is condemned in the Bible?

We can also agree that (as many rabbis state) - being gay is not condemned in the Torah as long as one does not act on these urges.

Thanks.

It is odd though that the Jewish sacred books treat lesbianism very differently. It goes without mention in the OT, and in the Talmud it merely says “women who practice lewdness with one another are disqualified from marrying a priest.” I’m sure those ancient lesbians were heartbroken :rolleyes:, but at least they didn’t have to go through what the Talmud describes for gay men:

The place of stoning was twice the man’s height. One of the witnesses pushed him by the hips, [so that] he was overturned on his heart. He was then turned on his back. If that caused his death, [the witness] had fulfilled [his duty] but if not, the second witness took the stone and threw it on his chest. If he died thereby [the witness] had done [his duty], but if not , [the criminal] was stoned by all Israel.
 
The Bible does not teach anything about homosexuality. Homosexuality, which affects a person's entire personality and outlook, is a modern concept. The Bible does mention homogenitality, which is actual sex between same-sexed persons.
The bible condems travestism, men dressing/behaving like women.
How do you interpret that?

IMHO the bible seems to be against any sexual behaviour not targeted at reproduction, and also has a clear lifestyle defined for men set around the family concept, at least in the OT.
 
Peskanov said:
The bible condems travestism, men dressing/behaving like women.
How do you interpret that?

IMHO the bible seems to be against any sexual behaviour not targeted at reproduction, and also has a clear lifestyle defined for men set around the family concept, at least in the OT.

Which would suggest that at the time of writing, enough people were practicing homosexuality to make it appear worthwhile to spend time condemning it.

I mean, there's no point in denouncing something that nobody's doing anyway...
 
Gwyn ap Nudd said:
I am in the middle of a study to discover exactly what the Bible teaches about homosexuality. This is what I've discovered so far:
  • The Bible does not teach anything about homosexuality. Homosexuality, which affects a person's entire personality and outlook, is a modern concept. The Bible does mention
    homogenitality, which is actual sex between same-sexed persons.

  • 1 Samuel 18:1-4. Yeah, like they were just friends.


    [*]The Bible discourages sex with temple prostitutes of either sex, as this is a form of idolatry.

    Yeah, God seems to have something against prostitutes in general.


    [*]Likewise, incest and adultery concerns do not depend on the sex of the participants (although it is only really considered adultery if at least one of the particpants is an adult male).

    God blesses the marriage between Abraham and Sarah, even though they are siblings. It appears to me that incest is OK if god says so.


    [*]Rape (non-consentual sex) is a no-no whether the victim is the same sex or not.

    Deuteronomy 22:23-24 places very strict rules against rapists, and occasionally their victims. I'm not aware of any passages that specify rules on same sex rape, and deuteronomy 22:23-24 does specify a woman.


    [*]Otherwise, the Bible only forbids homogenitality when both participants are free adult males who both like sex with women -- who are married to or plan to marry women. Even then, however, there might be an exception for soulmates/swordbrothers.

    In the Old Testament, the regular rules frequently don't apply to God's favorites. Romans 1:26 may refer to lesbians, and if so is the only passage I'm aware of that does so. I also think that Leviticus 20:13 doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room, and the bit about "as he lieth with a woman" is only descriptive.


    [*]The passages that lead to the last restriction may have been traditionally misunderstood. If it is true that angels and demons can (but shouldn't) mate with humans, then it does not apply, and the Bible does not forbid homogenitality except for the same causes for which it forbids cross-sex sex

Could you explain the bit about angels and demons to me? I'm not sure I get that.

As above, I don't think Leviticus 20:13 leaves a lot of wiggle room. Acts of homogentitality are to be punished by death, regardless of the circumstances.


I am continuing the study, focusing on what the Bible teaches about angels. If it turns out that they do have sex with humans, then I'll post the good news. There are some who claim that "Flying Saucer abductions" are not done by aliens, but by angels/demons. :)
:)

Forgive me if I seem a little bit hidebound, I'm taking this all from a KJV, and the Bible isn't my area of familiarity. The bit about a third sex intrigues me, though.
 
I hope it's okay I post this, written by Ananel of Gaia Online.
We should cover a few things first:
1) I am Christian. No matter what you think of my views below, I am a firm believer in the salvation of Christ and have been for almost all of my life.
2) I believe in the original inerrancy of Holy Scripture. In other words, God divinely inspired the apostles and prophets in the writing of the Bible, His chosen words written through their hand. I don't feel, however, that this also means that X translation is divinely inspired. What was promised was the original Word of God. We have since kept it as well as possible, though imperfections do occur.
3) I can, though with some difficulty, read Greek and Hebrew. Much of my commentary will use words from the original language, so be prepared for this.

Now, let me summarize this argument, because the argument itself will take pages of material even at its most basic. I will post the details of the argument in future postings if necessary, assuming that I am permitted to continue to do so.

A) The Ceremonial Law of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy no longer applies. Because of what is written in the book of Galatians and Paul's writings in the second chapter of Colossians, we have clear declarations that the ceremonial law is now in the field of Christian liberty. Paul uses a variety of examples to declare this and lists several portions of the law, following with the declaration that all of it was nailed to the Cross and has been removed. This belief is backed up further by the book of Romans and the speeches at the council of Jerusalem in Acts (Chapter 15), along with selected sayings by Christ concerning ceremonial practice. If we decide to pick and choose portions of the ceremonial law to continue in observance as God's will without clear relation of those parts to the commandments of God referenced in Romans, James and Revelations, then we place ourselves in danger of the ban of Galatians 1:8.

If this is the case, and most of you will find that your pastors will agree with this, unless you are members of the Seventh-day Adventist or similar denominations, then we have a big problem in the debate of homosexual sex as a sin. The problem is simple: The two clearest declarations of homosexual sex as a sin in the Bible are found in chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus. If the ceremonial law no longer applies, then neither do these.

B) Sodom and Gomorrah do not pertain to homosexual sex, and the same can be said of the related story in Judges. The sins of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly huge. Have you ever seen a city in your lives where the whole male population tried to batter down doors so that they could gang rape guests to the city? I apologize for being so blunt and almost crude, but the point is not a pleasant one, and neither is the story. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were sinful beyond our understanding. These were foul places where such extreme forms of rape were accepted and where the closest thing to a righteous man offers up his daughters to their lusts. Further, the issue also comes up that this is a story more about the complete lack of hospitality and the brutality of the citizens. It is reading too far into the text to say that this passage says anything about homosexual sex. It is speaking of extreme cases that do not apply to homosexual sex.

(Note: Ezekiel 16 is the passage which refers to the sins of Sodom/Gomorrah)

C) The argument of creation (God created them Adam and Eve, so they are meant to be complimentary) suffers from a massive weakness. In chapter three of Genesis, we are told why a man leaves his father and mother to become one flesh with the woman that he loves. We are told similar things in chapter five of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. However, neither passage declares that this must be the only thing. Paul also speaks elsewhere of the joys of celibacy. This indicates that marriage is not required. Without proof that homosexual sex is considered a sin, there is no reason to automatically assume that 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' is actually said in Scripture. The passages only say why heterosexual marriages occur, not that they must be the only ones.

In fact, an important point must be made. Scripture speaks clearly about the need to save sex for marriage. If the Bible has not declared homosexual sex or marriage as sinful, then we have done a vast disservice in refusing homosexual couples the right to marriage. We are, in effect, trying to force them into sinful relationships out-of-wedlock.

D) There are three passages that may speak on homosexual sex in the New Testament. Two are lists of sins, found in chapter six of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians and chapter one of his first letter to Timothy. The third, and most important, passage is found in the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans.

1) The two lists are poorly translated in the cases of homosexuality. Three words are found in these passages that are used to relate to homosexual sex: Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. Pornia means pervert. That's all it really means. It refers to sexual perversion, but makes no statement as to what that perversion is. It is far too general to relate to homosexual sex. Malakoi refers to softness or effeminacy, with implications of perversion. The term is used to refer to a man who is too passionate and emotional, and who acts upon these. It relates to the Grecian concepts of gender identity. The man was not to be emotional in this fashion. If one stretches the meaning of the word, examples are found where Malakoi may refer to the 'bottom' partner of pederasty. This is a relationship wherein a teenage boy traded sexual favors with an older man in return for guidance and training. It was common within Greek society and accepted in Roman society. Arsenokoitas is a compound word derived from the Greek words for man and bed. While this sounds like a clear reference to homosexuality to our modern ears, there is a problem. The word does not appear at any point prior to Paul's letters. To our knowledge, he created the term himself. Its usage in all other cases I am aware of either represents something akin to an aggressive sexual predator or, more commonly, the 'top' partner in pederasty. At most these verses could possibly have listed pederasty as a crime, but not homosexual sex alone. You cannot read into the text the fact that, because something condemned includes another thing, that other thing is automatically condemned as well. For example, a person who breaks the commandment about not bearing false testimony against one's neighbor must communicate to do so. Communication is not condemned, is it? The condemnation of pederasty cannot be clearly related, even in consideration of Jewish morals that Paul is familiar with, to a condemnation of homosexual sex. Look at http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html for further details on the specifics of Arsenokoites and Malakoi.

2) Romans 1:18-32 is the key to the argument. However, there are a series of problems with the classic interpretation of the passage.

One, we rarely take verses 26-27 in context with the rest of the passage. The lusts spoken of are the result of godlessness and the refusal of the gospel of God. The godless ones are described as being given over to their passions. This loss of control is key and important to the Greeks and Romans Paul is writing to, and was considered a very bad thing. It is important to realize that the passage is not centered on homosexual relations, no matter how you interpret it.

Two, the relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The term pushin is the Greek word for natural and refers, in general, to that which is according either to socially accepted morals or to one's innate nature. The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexual relationships to be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural to the Romans would specifically have been something where a citizen was 'on bottom.' Such a position degrades the citizen's status and was considered to be a horrible thing.

Three, the shameful lusts that are spoken of are not specifically described. Unlike Leviticus, where they are listed, the passage assumes that its audience knows what is being spoken of. While Paul is a born and trained Jew, familiar with the ceremonial law, he is preaching to newly converted Christians in Rome and Greece. These people, though somewhat familiar with Jewish beliefs, could not have been considered familiar enough to assume that 'shameful lusts' meant what is said in Leviticus. Paul is not a man to leave explanations unclear. When necessary, he goes into great detail and repetition to make his point absolutely clear and understood. Therefore, by context it seems he is speaking to the Roman's understanding of shameful, the subjugation of a citizen for example. Further, pathos (lusts) does not necessitate a sexual connotation.

Four, the fact that we have women doing things with women instead of men and that we have men doing things with men instead of women is clear from what Paul says in verses 26-27. However, Paul does not at any point say what is being done. He lacks the clarity of Leviticus. Any number of things could be occurring, and without a clear indication that the text is specifically speaking of homosexual sex acts on any level we are familiar with today we cannot claim that Romans 1 clearly declares that the ceremonial law still applies in this case.

My arguments are quite basic. This is only an overview of them. I have far more detailed descriptions of the issues involved and will happily offer them. This argument is also not new. You can find websites offering similar interpretations themselves. I came to these conclusions, however, through prayer and consideration with friends, not a website. These positions, also, are hardly universally accepted. There is strong evidence in both directions with regards Romans 1. Some churches still make the claim that parts of the ceremonial law remain intact. There are strong arguments both for and against this.

My single greatest point is this: Can you honestly declare something a sin when you cannot clearly show without serious contention that the Bible declares it to be a sin? When we look at the Ten Commandments, we know basically what they say and don't argue over them. Christ further explains them during his life, giving us more information about what they mean. We know these things to be sins, and there is little debate. Homosexual sex is found in the ceremonial laws and what few verses speak of it outside of that set of laws are hotly contested. How can we clearly state, based upon these facts, that homosexuality is indeed a sin?

No. I don't think it's wrong, and I'll be happy to stand on Scripture to that effect.
 
2) Romans 1:18-32 is the key to the argument. However, there are a series of problems with the classic interpretation of the passage.
...
...
This one has to be the poorest argument I have ever read. Calling it an argument it's an exageration, let's say "excuse", it's more appropiate.
I'm goint to post the text so everybody can read it:
Romans 1:
1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
Peskanov said:
This one has to be the poorest argument I have ever read. Calling it an argument it's an exageration, let's say "excuse", it's more appropiate.
I'm goint to post the text so everybody can read it:
Romans 1:

I agree, Romans is *clearly* discussing same gender sex.

The arguments against that understanding are extremely weak.

If more people would just accept that the bible says what it says there would be a lot less Christians.
 
username said:
I agree, Romans is *clearly* discussing same gender sex.

The arguments against that understanding are extremely weak.

If more people would just accept that the bible says what it says there would be a lot less Christians.

While I’d want to take liberal interpreters to task for whitewashing this passage, I’d not want to ignore how the other end misuses it as well.

Contrary to the way modern conservative Christians use this passage, the sin focused on here is not really same gender sex; it seems to be a sort of paganism:

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The curse for that is, among other things:

For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Yes, I’d agree, Paul, and thus the Bible as a whole, sees same sex sex as “unseemly” and “vile”. But it should still be noted that what is described here does not apply to most every situation involving a gay person. Many now-a-days were devout Christian kids at the time they realized their orientation, far from the proud pagans described above. They never felt “lust” or anything resembling attraction to the opposite sex, ever, and therefore there was never anything for God to “give them up” to, or reason to do so. I mean, how many men would leave the “the natural use of the woman”, if it wasn’t “natural” for them to do so? I doubt I know any, and would agree with Paul that it’d take a God-sent miracle to turn most men gay :).

I’m not saying this passage doesn’t pose homosexuality, even without acts, as vile. To me, Rom 1 just comes off as one straight man’s attempt, like so many others, to explain where homosexuality, among other things, comes from. Paul’s answer: God turns straight people gay, as a punishment.

What’s not odd, though, is the relatively little attention Romans 2 gets. Following just after that quote:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

All those pious folks doesting the same things…. :)
 
AAARRRGGGHHH!!!!!

I spent two hours answering the posts that have appeared here since I left to contemplate last week. I was about half-way through them. Then I accidently wiped them all out.

I am going to post a number of shorter posts instead, so that it does not happen again.

First, I did arrive at an answer to the problem for which I went "up on the mountainside": Why do I accept expanding the definition of rape to include actions that the Bible does not, and reffuse to similarly expand the definition of "unnatural sexual acts"?

The answer is that when Jesus expanded or did away with a portion of the Law, it was always on the side of compassion. And it is compassionate to allow the law to cover slaves and prisoners, and to allow a woman more say in who can invade her body. But it is not compassionate to persecute, jail, and even murder people for actions that had been legal and which victimize no one else.

So do we agree that homosexuality as an act is condemned in the Bible?

We can also agree that (as many rabbis state) - being gay is not condemned in the Torah as long as one does not act on these urges.

I agree that being gay is not condemned in the Bible. Certain actions are forbidden, but it is not certain at what level.

In a theocratic society such as ancient Israel, some distinctions are blurred. It is not always immediately clear whether a commandment describes a moral obligation, or one of religious sanctity or even one of ritual purity. ("It's God's word -- just do it.") But there are, if one looks for them, ways to make these distinctions, and verses that suggest that one should be aware of them.
On the Christian side of the house, what about Jesus' teaching, that thinking about it, is the same as doing it?
Actually "coveting" wishing for something (or someone) that the only way to obtain is to deprive another person of his property or rights (including what today's laws call "alienation of affection") is also forbidden in the OT, and specifically in the Ten Commandments.
 
It is odd though that the Jewish sacred books treat lesbianism very differently. It goes without mention in the OT, and in the Talmud it merely says “women who practice lewdness with one another are disqualified from marrying a priest.” I’m sure those ancient lesbians were heartbroken :rolleyes:, but at least they didn’t have to go through what the Talmud describes for gay men:

Considering that the woman would be married off anyway, marriage to a priest would be a lot less onerous on a lesbian. Every month there would be two or three days he could not even approach her tent (or her chambers) for fear of being contaminated by her menses. There would be numerous other occassions when he needs to keep particularly pure, or she turns out to be particularly unclean. With a little imagination, she would be able to avoid his prescence indefinitely after the marriage festival was over.


The bible condems travestism, men dressing/behaving like women.
How do you interpret that?
Assuming that you are referring to Deut 22:5, I treat it exactly like the sexual prohibitions in Leviticus 18-20
Which would suggest that at the time of writing, enough people were practicing homosexuality to make it appear worthwhile to spend time condemning it.

I mean, there's no point in denouncing something that nobody's doing anyway...
No one has claimed that the forbidden actions never occured. The questions were: 1) Are all of the practices that are on the list of "unnatural acts" today always on the list? and 2) At what level are they forbidden?
 
neutrino_cannon said:

1 Samuel 18:1-4. Yeah, like they were just friends.
Ah yes, Jonathan and David. That is why I left open the possibility of an axception for soulmates/swordbrothers in my first post, as you quote later.

I don't go into too much detail, since an incorrect interpretation of the relevant Law may force a researcher to accept a given conclusion about their relationship despite the clear language of Davids praises.
Yeah, God seems to have something against prostitutes in general.
Not against prostitutes in general, but against cult prostitutes who seduced the Israelites away from His worship, and married women whose "side job" is adultery. It is not clear that He condemns divorced women and widows (see Rahab and Tamar, for example) .
God blesses the marriage between Abraham and Sarah, even though they are siblings. It appears to me that incest is OK if god says so.
In Leviticus, the focus is not on consanguinity, but on functional relationships within the family and tribe (and possibly on protecting the merchandise, since virgin brides bring a higher price than non-virgins.) Since Abraham and Sarah left behind their birth tribe in Ur and their birth family (except for Lot) in Haran, this would not have been an issue.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 places very strict rules against rapists, and occasionally their victims. I'm not aware of any passages that specify rules on same sex rape, and deuteronomy 22:23-24 does specify a woman.
While my primary text was, as yours, Deut 22, I also looked at specific examples of rape and attempted rape, and its consequences, such as Gen 19, Gen 34, Judges 19-20, and 2 Sam 10/1 Chron 19.
In the Old Testament, the regular rules frequently don't apply to God's favorites. Romans 1:26 may refer to lesbians, and if so is the only passage I'm aware of that does so. I also think that Leviticus 20:13 doesn't leave a lot of wiggle room, and the bit about "as he lieth with a woman" is only descriptive.
1)They don't always apply as severely, and are ocassionally overlooked.

2)It is only because of the parallel that it seems to refer to lesbian sex. All we know for certain is that the unnaturalness of the women's lusts, whatever they are, is as bad as that of the mens' lusts, of which homogenitality is one one example.

3)I agree that there is not very much "wiggle room" in the action that is forbidden. What is not clear (despite the death penalty threat) is the level on whic it is forbidden. (See my point about the blurred distinctions in a theocracy.)
Could you explain the bit about angels and demons to me? I'm not sure I get that.
That refers to the letters of Jude and 2 Peter. The men of Sodom "going after strange flesh" in Jude, usually read as homogenitality, is more likely, given a number of quotes in these two related letters from the non-canonical books of I Enoch and Jubilees, a reference to the then prevalent idea that the men of Sodom knew that Lot's visitors were angels and wanted them for that reason, and not because they were male. In fact, in those books it was the women of Sodom who were condemned for the unnatural lust for angelic flesh, just as the antideluvian "daughters of men" seduced the angelic "Sons of God" in Gen 6.
Forgive me if I seem a little bit hidebound, I'm taking this all from a KJV, and the Bible isn't my area of familiarity. The bit about a third sex intrigues me, though.
That was a Greek theory that was echoed, if not in as full detail, throughout the ancient world. Basically, the legend is that mankind was originally created with a double soul. and that a punishment from the gods split them up. Most souls split into a hearty, passionate male half and a weaker, cooler female half. This is why men seek women.

But some of the souls split far too evenly. They are neither strong or "passionate" enough to be true men, though they were "hot" enough that their bodies developed as male. In seeking their other halves, the wanted neither men, who were too hot to complete them, nor women, who were too cold. They sought out other in-betweeners, such as themselves.

The theory explains the urges we call homosexuality. It also explains that they are not real men, so that taboos concerning relating to other men would not apply to them.
 
0rz said:
written by Ananel of Gaia Online.
We should cover a few things first:
1) I am Christian. No matter what you think of my views below, I am a firm believer in the salvation of Christ and have been for almost all of my life.
2) I believe in the original inerrancy of Holy Scripture. In other words, God divinely inspired the apostles and prophets in the writing of the Bible, His chosen words written through their hand. I don't feel, however, that this also means that X translation is divinely inspired. What was promised was the original Word of God. We have since kept it as well as possible, though imperfections do occur.
3) I can, though with some difficulty, read Greek and Hebrew. Much of my commentary will use words from the original language, so be prepared for this.

Now, let me summarize this argument, because the argument itself will take pages of material even at its most basic. I will post the details of the argument in future postings if necessary, assuming that I am permitted to continue to do so.

A) The Ceremonial Law of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy no longer applies. Because of what is written in the book of Galatians and Paul's writings in the second chapter of Colossians, we have clear declarations that the ceremonial law is now in the field of Christian liberty. Paul uses a variety of examples to declare this and lists several portions of the law, following with the declaration that all of it was nailed to the Cross and has been removed. This belief is backed up further by the book of Romans and the speeches at the council of Jerusalem in Acts (Chapter 15), along with selected sayings by Christ concerning ceremonial practice. If we decide to pick and choose portions of the ceremonial law to continue in observance as God's will without clear relation of those parts to the commandments of God referenced in Romans, James and Revelations, then we place ourselves in danger of the ban of Galatians 1:8.

If this is the case, and most of you will find that your pastors will agree with this, unless you are members of the Seventh-day Adventist or similar denominations, then we have a big problem in the debate of homosexual sex as a sin. The problem is simple: The two clearest declarations of homosexual sex as a sin in the Bible are found in chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus. If the ceremonial law no longer applies, then neither do these.

B) Sodom and Gomorrah do not pertain to homosexual sex, and the same can be said of the related story in Judges. The sins of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are clearly huge. Have you ever seen a city in your lives where the whole male population tried to batter down doors so that they could gang rape guests to the city? I apologize for being so blunt and almost crude, but the point is not a pleasant one, and neither is the story. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were sinful beyond our understanding. These were foul places where such extreme forms of rape were accepted and where the closest thing to a righteous man offers up his daughters to their lusts. Further, the issue also comes up that this is a story more about the complete lack of hospitality and the brutality of the citizens. It is reading too far into the text to say that this passage says anything about homosexual sex. It is speaking of extreme cases that do not apply to homosexual sex.

(Note: Ezekiel 16 is the passage which refers to the sins of Sodom/Gomorrah)

C) The argument of creation (God created them Adam and Eve, so they are meant to be complimentary) suffers from a massive weakness. In chapter three of Genesis, we are told why a man leaves his father and mother to become one flesh with the woman that he loves. We are told similar things in chapter five of Paul's letter to the Ephesians. However, neither passage declares that this must be the only thing. Paul also speaks elsewhere of the joys of celibacy. This indicates that marriage is not required. Without proof that homosexual sex is considered a sin, there is no reason to automatically assume that 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve' is actually said in Scripture. The passages only say why heterosexual marriages occur, not that they must be the only ones.

In fact, an important point must be made. Scripture speaks clearly about the need to save sex for marriage. If the Bible has not declared homosexual sex or marriage as sinful, then we have done a vast disservice in refusing homosexual couples the right to marriage. We are, in effect, trying to force them into sinful relationships out-of-wedlock.

D) There are three passages that may speak on homosexual sex in the New Testament. Two are lists of sins, found in chapter six of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians and chapter one of his first letter to Timothy. The third, and most important, passage is found in the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans.

1) The two lists are poorly translated in the cases of homosexuality. Three words are found in these passages that are used to relate to homosexual sex: Pornia, Arsenokoitas and Malakoi. Pornia means pervert. That's all it really means. It refers to sexual perversion, but makes no statement as to what that perversion is. It is far too general to relate to homosexual sex. Malakoi refers to softness or effeminacy, with implications of perversion. The term is used to refer to a man who is too passionate and emotional, and who acts upon these. It relates to the Grecian concepts of gender identity. The man was not to be emotional in this fashion. If one stretches the meaning of the word, examples are found where Malakoi may refer to the 'bottom' partner of pederasty. This is a relationship wherein a teenage boy traded sexual favors with an older man in return for guidance and training. It was common within Greek society and accepted in Roman society. Arsenokoitas is a compound word derived from the Greek words for man and bed. While this sounds like a clear reference to homosexuality to our modern ears, there is a problem. The word does not appear at any point prior to Paul's letters. To our knowledge, he created the term himself. Its usage in all other cases I am aware of either represents something akin to an aggressive sexual predator or, more commonly, the 'top' partner in pederasty. At most these verses could possibly have listed pederasty as a crime, but not homosexual sex alone. You cannot read into the text the fact that, because something condemned includes another thing, that other thing is automatically condemned as well. For example, a person who breaks the commandment about not bearing false testimony against one's neighbor must communicate to do so. Communication is not condemned, is it? The condemnation of pederasty cannot be clearly related, even in consideration of Jewish morals that Paul is familiar with, to a condemnation of homosexual sex. Look at http://www.clgs.org/5/5_4_3.html for further details on the specifics of Arsenokoites and Malakoi.

2) Romans 1:18-32 is the key to the argument. However, there are a series of problems with the classic interpretation of the passage.

One, we rarely take verses 26-27 in context with the rest of the passage. The lusts spoken of are the result of godlessness and the refusal of the gospel of God. The godless ones are described as being given over to their passions. This loss of control is key and important to the Greeks and Romans Paul is writing to, and was considered a very bad thing. It is important to realize that the passage is not centered on homosexual relations, no matter how you interpret it.

Two, the relationships are referred to as being unnatural. The term pushin is the Greek word for natural and refers, in general, to that which is according either to socially accepted morals or to one's innate nature. The society Paul is writing to, both Roman and Greek, considered homosexual relationships to be quite natural. What would have been considered unnatural to the Romans would specifically have been something where a citizen was 'on bottom.' Such a position degrades the citizen's status and was considered to be a horrible thing.

Three, the shameful lusts that are spoken of are not specifically described. Unlike Leviticus, where they are listed, the passage assumes that its audience knows what is being spoken of. While Paul is a born and trained Jew, familiar with the ceremonial law, he is preaching to newly converted Christians in Rome and Greece. These people, though somewhat familiar with Jewish beliefs, could not have been considered familiar enough to assume that 'shameful lusts' meant what is said in Leviticus. Paul is not a man to leave explanations unclear. When necessary, he goes into great detail and repetition to make his point absolutely clear and understood. Therefore, by context it seems he is speaking to the Roman's understanding of shameful, the subjugation of a citizen for example. Further, pathos (lusts) does not necessitate a sexual connotation.

Four, the fact that we have women doing things with women instead of men and that we have men doing things with men instead of women is clear from what Paul says in verses 26-27. However, Paul does not at any point say what is being done. He lacks the clarity of Leviticus. Any number of things could be occurring, and without a clear indication that the text is specifically speaking of homosexual sex acts on any level we are familiar with today we cannot claim that Romans 1 clearly declares that the ceremonial law still applies in this case.

My arguments are quite basic. This is only an overview of them. I have far more detailed descriptions of the issues involved and will happily offer them. This argument is also not new. You can find websites offering similar interpretations themselves. I came to these conclusions, however, through prayer and consideration with friends, not a website. These positions, also, are hardly universally accepted. There is strong evidence in both directions with regards Romans 1. Some churches still make the claim that parts of the ceremonial law remain intact. There are strong arguments both for and against this.

My single greatest point is this: Can you honestly declare something a sin when you cannot clearly show without serious contention that the Bible declares it to be a sin? When we look at the Ten Commandments, we know basically what they say and don't argue over them. Christ further explains them during his life, giving us more information about what they mean. We know these things to be sins, and there is little debate. Homosexual sex is found in the ceremonial laws and what few verses speak of it outside of that set of laws are hotly contested. How can we clearly state, based upon these facts, that homosexuality is indeed a sin?

No. I don't think it's wrong, and I'll be happy to stand on Scripture to that effect.

This person's studies have led him/her to very similar conclusions as my studies have led me. I only have a couple of comments to make.

First, pornia does not mean "pervert" it is the same word (in the masculine) as the word correctly translated prostitute or "whore," and it usually referred to male temple prostitutes (the OT Hebrew refers to them as "dogs," as do the languages of the nations in which they served.

Second, arsenokoitos was, as the poster stated, unknown before the letters of Paul. Even when it appears in later writings, they show Paul's influence: it occurs only in Christian writing, and usually only in sin lists, as it does in the two letters of Paul. The best theory is that Paul is quoting a "sin list" he learned as a young Pharisee, translating it into Greek:

1) Rabbis would often abreviate an oft-cited verse by contracting the two or three most important words in the verse. It is reasonable that they would abreviate Lev 18:22 as "zakar-miskab" ("man-lying-with" or "man-in-bed-with").

2) The Septuagint translates Lev 18:22 into Greek as "Kai meta arsenos ou koimethese koiten gynaikos bdelygma gar estin"

So Paul does seem to be referring to the Levitical prohibition. That does not necessarily mean he is reinforcing the ban.

The point of both letters is that the grace of God frees us from being caught up in trap of accounting for and balancing out our sins.
 
Gwyn ap Nudd said:
I am in the middle of a study to discover exactly what the Bible teaches about homosexuality.
Why?

And I don't mean that sarcastically. I mean it as a straightforward, what-it-asks-is-what-I-want-to-know question.

If you want to learn about homosexuality, why study the bible? No one I know would cite it as an athoritative text.

If you want to learn about morality, why limit yourself to the bible? Wouldn't a more rounded reading list be more enlightening?

If you want to study ancient cultures, again why not a broader survey of the literature?

And so forth....

In summary, you seem to be a well spoken, intelligent person looking for answers. Why limit yourself to just one "book" from just one era about one subject?
 
Gwyn ap Nudd
The answer is that when Jesus expanded or did away with a portion of the Law, it was always on the side of compassion. And it is compassionate to allow the law to cover slaves and prisoners, and to allow a woman more say in who can invade her body. But it is not compassionate to persecute, jail, and even murder people for actions that had been legal and which victimize no one else.

Where did Jesus change the law?

Mathew.5:18-19
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

Luke.16:17
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Oops…guess he didn’t.

First, I did arrive at an answer to the problem for which I went "up on the mountainside": Why do I accept expanding the definition of rape to include actions that the Bible does not, and reffuse to similarly expand the definition of "unnatural sexual acts"?
So far that is all interpretation by you and conviently saying what you apparently want to hear.

Ossai
 
SezMe:

That is a fair question and it deserves an honest answer.

If you want to learn about homosexuality, why study the bible? No one I know would cite it as an athoritative text.

No, the bible is not an authoritative text on the science of homosexuality, but it is an authoritative text on the teachings of the Bible.

If you want to learn about morality, why limit yourself to the bible? Wouldn't a more rounded reading list be more enlightening?

Not necessarily morality "in general," if there is or can be such a thing*, but Biblical morality. I am comparing what the Bible says about itself and its teachings to what the people for whom and by whom it was written would have understood of the world and the issues involved.

If you want to study ancient cultures, again why not a broader survey of the literature?

As I said, it is broader. But there is only so much that a study of Greek philosophy can say about the Bible, and the Hindu vedas and Taoist literature have even less to say, so I'm limited to little more than the areas of the Eastern Mediterranean and the Golden Crescent and the time frame between the Bronze age and the First century CE.

But why the focus on the Bible in the first place? Because Jesus believed in it. Because of that I feel I need to understand it, and on its own terms.

Granted, this speaks more strongly for the OT than the NT, so I do give more thought to non-canonical NT books, especially the gnostic gospels. And if I feel the evidence is strong enough, I would be willing to consider some of them in "my" canon. Likewise I might be willing to drop some currently cononical NT books.

But I would have to be convinced that the "new" books are consistant with the rest of the Bible, and its message, and that the dropped books aren't. Currently I am tempted to drop the letters of Jude and Second Peter because they apparently subscribe to the belief that angels have physical bodies and can interbreed with humans, producing giant offspring. If ever I become convinced that that is the proper understanding of those letters, I probably will drop them. But not without a lot of thought and, yes, prayer. After all just because it seems ridiculous to me does not prove it to be false.

*One can have a personal morality. There can be a shared morality within a community or a culture, but I'm not convinced that there can be "Morality" existing in vacuo.
 

Back
Top Bottom