Homeopathy more popular in the UK?

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I suspect that's been the purpose of some of the jokes about homeopathy in the UK (Mitchell & Webb homeopathic hospital drama sketch is an obvious example). I think a major reason they're mocking the idea of magic water is to reveal what it is to users who don't realise that's what they're buying.

I don't think so. If you watch the Mitchell & Webb sketch, then it puts various things under the banner of "homeopathy" - "flower remedies", chakras, crystal healing, and so on. Not much of the sketch is actually about homeopathy at all.

 

[Mojo]

He then discovered the guy had come across this idea that probiotics were ineffective by mouth and had been giving the stuff by enema. "Stuff it down its throat, dammit!" shouted my colleague. The vet did and the cat promptly got better.

I imagine it would. Ours has enough issues with the vet just taking her temperature.

 

[geni]

I don't think so. If you watch the Mitchell & Webb sketch, then it puts various things under the banner of "homeopathy" - "flower remedies", chakras, crystal healing, and so on. Not much of the sketch is actually about homeopathy at all.

Bach flower remedies pretty much are homeopthy just with a smaller set of remedies.

 

[zooterkin]

Bach flower remedies pretty much are homeopthy just with a smaller set of remedies.

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'pretty much'. They are the same from the point of view of efficacy, certainly, but they are not based on homoeopathic principles of like curing like, nor are they as diluted (I believe traces of the original flowers would still be detectable), and they typically contain a significant amount of brandy.

 

[geni]

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'pretty much'. They are the same from the point of view of efficacy, certainly, but they are not based on homoeopathic principles of like curing like, nor are they as diluted (I believe traces of the original flowers would still be detectable), and they typically contain a significant amount of brandy.

There are versions of homeopathy where dilutions as low as 6X are used. I've actualy detected things at lower concentrations than that.

 

[ehcks]

There are versions of homeopathy where dilutions as low as 6X are used. I've actualy detected things at lower concentrations than that.

There are two different "kinds" of homeopathy. One is the better known version that sells impossible dilutions of pure water or plain sugar pills. The other sells mixtures of a more realistic dilution. They still have to show that their remedy works.

My first encounter with homeopathy was a flu symptom reliever called occillococcinum. A few years ago in the US it apparently was allowed to run TV ads, and my mom actually bought the junk. The main ingredient was written in Latin, but after some translation I found it was a 10^400 dilution of an extract of duck heart and liver.

The idea was that the duck's heart and liver contain a massive amount of bacteria, so the "magic essence" of bacteria must cure the flu. Or something.

Even if it were 10^6, it wouldn't do anything. People don't eat foie gras to cure a flu.

 

[geni]

There are two different "kinds" of homeopathy. One is the better known version that sells impossible dilutions of pure water or plain sugar pills. The other sells mixtures of a more realistic dilution. They still have to show that their remedy works.

It's more a geographical thing. Occillococcinum is an exception but for the most part continental europeans use lower dilutions. The high dilutions appears to be a mostly US thing.

 

[Mojo]

The idea was that the duck's heart and liver contain a massive amount of bacteria, so the "magic essence" of bacteria must cure the flu. Or something.

Indeed: wiggly bacteria observed in the blood of flu patients by a French doctor called Roy in the 1920s. Unfortunately nobody other than Roy has ever been able to detect them. And flu isn't caused by a bacterium.

 

[RationalVetMed]

He then discovered the guy had come across this idea that probiotics were ineffective by mouth and had been giving the stuff by enema. "Stuff it down its throat, dammit!" shouted my colleague. The vet did and the cat promptly got better.

Rolfe.

That reminds me of a story I heard. A little old lady went to the doctor with a problem and asked for some tablets. Instead the doctor prescribed a suppository with the instructions to put it in “the back passage” following which an improvement would be seen in a day or two.

A week later the lady was back at the doctor’s. “Well”, asked the doctor, “how did you get on with the treatment?”.

“It was a complete waste of time” declared the lady indignantly, “we don’t actually have a back passage so I put it in the lobby instead and for all the good it did I might as well have shoved it up my a£se!”

Actually, on reflection maybe you have to be Scots to understand that one.

Yuri

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe.

 

[23_Tauri]

Capsid called it.

If no bacteria could get past the stomach, nobody would ever get Salmonella or Campylobacter or Yersinia, in fact the sterile neonatal intestine would never be colonised in the first place! I've read one study where different oral loads of probiotic bacteria were administered, then the faeces cultured to see what was getting through. The highest dose did the trick. If 99% of the bugs are going to be killed in the stomach, you have to take that into account and realise that your money is on the remaining 1%.

Shoving probiotics up as an enema doesn't seem to work because you're going against the flow. A colleague of mine did a study where the vets treating 50 cats with chronic bowel problems were asked to use probiotics and then submit faecal samples to see whether the bowel flora was getting any better. Two of the 50 didn't improve. One turned out to have short bowel syndrome and should never have been in the study in the first place. The other was a cat belonging to the vet himself. Unable to understand why this one individual wasn't responding like the others, my colleague phoned the clinician/owner. He then discovered the guy had come across this idea that probiotics were ineffective by mouth and had been giving the stuff by enema. "Stuff it down its throat, dammit!" shouted my colleague. The vet did and the cat promptly got better.

Rolfe.

A good story, thank you Rolfe.

On dosage, you said that the highest dose did the trick. So, in order for a probiotic to be effective, do you need a good supplement with hundreds of millions of Lactobacillus et al? In other words, those dinky bottles on the supermarket shelves that send you dancing down the aisle with your trolley , I take it the amount of probiotic in those is so small that they are to all intents and purposes ineffective, aka a marketing con?

 

[Rolfe]

I don't think the bottles are too small per se. More that there's no control at all over what's in them.

Rolfe.

 

[23_Tauri]

Ah yes. Looks like Danone have had their wrists smacked too:

Actimel ad which claimed health benefits banned in UK