Homeopathy is everywhere!

There's a huge amount of money to be made from so-called alternative medicine, not least because the overheads are so cheap (homoeopathic remedies are particularly cheap to manufacture, and not having to comply with any drug regulatory requirements also reduces costs immensely).

Part of the marketing strategy for all this is to dress it up as "proper medicine", roping in delusional individuals with medical and scientific qualifications (and sadly there seems to be no shortage of these) and producing books and so on in the same format as normal medical texts.

Works a treat, and Steve certainly seems to have swallowed it whole.

Rolfe.
 
Re: Placebo Effect in Experimental Animals??

SteveGrenard said:
I asked earlier if anyone had an explanation for how the placebo effect could work in experimental animals treated sucessfully with homeopathic remedies. I did not get any replies but I did get requests asking me to put up or shut up---that is, asking me for such studies, implying such did not exist.

Animal studies, of course, are an early part of most new drug studies per FDA protocols. Right boTox? I will work backwards and give one of the most recent studies first. More to follow if necessary. Anyone interested can read the full text at the URL given below.
-----------------------------------------------

Effect of a homeopathic drug, Chelidonium, in amelioration of p-DAB induced hepatocarcinogenesis in mice

Surjyo Jyoti Biswas and Anisur Rahman Khuda-Bukhsh

Cytogenetics Laboratory, Department of Zoology, University of Kalyani, Kalyani-741 235, W.B., India

BMC Complementary and Alternative Medicine 2002 2:4

The electronic version of this article is the complete one and can be found online at: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/2/4

Results

All group (i) mice developed tumors in liver at all fixation intervals, while none of group (ii) and (iii) mice developed any tumors. About 40% mice in group (iv) and group (v) did not show tumor nodules in their liver. Feeding of Chelidonium to group (iv) and (v) mice reduced genotoxic effects to a significant extent (p < 0.05 to p < 0.001).

Conclusion

The homeopathic drug Chelidonium exhibited anti-tumor and anti-genotoxic activities and also favorably modulated activities of some marker enzymes. Microdoses of Chelidonium may be effectively used in combating liver cancer.


This may appear to be a very well conducted study. However, it is not statistically powered to demonstrate a difference between the groups tested. There are only 5 mice in each group. Results show all mice in group 1 developed tumours (5 of 5) and about (sic) 40% of those in groups 2 and 3 did not (ie 6 of 10 did develop tumours)

In statistical terms this is an insignificant difference.
(Chi square with Yates correction: p=0.86; Fisher exact test: p=0.412 one tailed and p=0.682 two tailed)

Why on earth the experimenters did not use more mice, or the statistical reviewers of this paper indicate its invalidity is beyond me.
 
Hans:
The Organon of Medicine". This will take another couple of weeks (it is a big volume), then I will publish my comments and conclusions. I can, however, already tell you that my studies are leaving me thoroughly unconvinced about the virtues of homepathy.


You can wade through this outdated volume from 200 years ago instead of reading the modern literature of the subject; but, this is the same as reading a 200 year old book on infectious diseases or a three hundred year old text on materia medica. It has little or no relevance today. Quack baiters and cynics like to latch on to historical documents such as this. One could make just as much light of even a hundred year old treatise on the treatment of syphilis, for example, as they could on this. Hahnneman was not a god, merely a physician and observer.
He thought he latched on to something and embellished it in many ways to sell his ideas. Not uncommon then, and, for that matter, not uncommon now. A hundred years from now somebody will be saying the same thing about works and discoveries made today. But one should not waste time on the Organon unless they had a serious historical interest in the subject.
 
I was just about to make the same obervation. 5 mice per group?

Is that right?
 
BTox said:
Thus each fluid ounce of water contains 50,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of D<sub>2</sub>O, since there are about 10<sup>24</sup> molecules of water per fluid ounce (cite).

Or to use homeopathic notation, naturally occurring heavy water is between 7X and 8X.

Hmm... I wonder how much I can get for selling 10 ml vials of pure water as "Deuterium oxidum 7x"...;)
It's worse than that. For every one molecule of D<sub>2</sub>O in plain water, there are about 6000 molecules of HDO (hydrogen deuterium oxide) -- essentially a water molecule where one, but not both, of the Hydrogen atoms is a Deuterium atom.

So your "homeopathic" preparation of Deuterium oxidum 7x would be contaminated by Deuterium hydrogen oxidum 4x. ;)
 
Here is another mouse study, this one with ten mice --:) from Israel:

: Harefuah. 1992 Aug;123(3-4):79-82, 156. Related Articles, Links

[Wound healing by homeopathic silica dilutions in mice]

[Article in Hebrew]

Oberbaum M, Markovits R, Weisman Z, Kalinkevits A, Bentwich Z.

Ruth Ben-Ari Institute of Clinical Immunology, Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot.

Highly diluted solutions of silica are widely used in homeopathic medicine to treat lesions such as chronic wounds, ulcers, and abscesses. We tested the therapeutic effects of homeopathic dilutions of silica on induced chronic wounds. Holes were made in the ears of mice by dental wire, which then remained hanging from the ear to cause persistent mechanical irritation. In each experiment 3 or 4 groups of 10 mice each were treated by adding homeopathic dilutions of silica (10(-10), 10(-60), 10(-400)) and of saline (10(-10), respectively, to the drinking water of the mice for 4-20 days. The size of the wound holes was measured every second day (grades 0-4) and/or by an objective image analysis system. The results showed that in 7/11 experiments the ear holes of the silica-treated animals were significantly smaller (p less than 0.05-0.001) and healed faster than in those treated with saline. Also the therapeutic effect increased progressively with increase in dilution of the silica (10(-10) less than 10(-60) less than 10(-400)). These results show that homeopathic dilutions of silica (even well beyond Avogadro's number) clearly have a therapeutic effect on wound healing and that our experimental model for studying wound healing is a very useful tool for such studies.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Holes were made in the ears of mice by dental wire, which then remained hanging from the ear to cause persistent mechanical irritation.
Aw ... poor mousies.
 
More poor mousies, rats and some guinea pigs as well...

There have been over 100 animal studies, clinical or laboratory controlled, evaluating the prophylactic and therapeutic effects of homeopathic doses of normally toxic substances. A collaborative effort of scientists from German research institutions and from Walter Reed Hospital performed a meta-analysis of these studies. Ref: . Linde, W.B. Jonas, D. Melchart, D., et al., "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 1994, 13:481-92. The researchers found that many of the studies were flawed in some way. However, of the high quality studies, positive results were found 50% more often than negative results. What was particularly intriguing was that researchers who tested doses in the submolecular range (potencies greater than 24x) were found to have the best designed studies and more frequently found statisticially significant results from these microdoses. Specifically, several researchers gave, usually to rats, crude doses of arsenic, bismuth, cadmium, mercury chloride, or lead. The research showed that animals who were pretreated with homeopathic doses of these substances and then given repeated homeopathic doses after exposure to the crude substance, excreted more of these toxic substances through urine, feces, and sweat than did those animals given a placebo. Several studies noted that pretreatment and treatment with potentized doses of substances different from those to which the animal was being exposed did not provide any benefit.

Researchers A.R. Khuda-Bukhsh, S. Banik, "Assessment of Cytogenetic Damage in X-irradiated Mice and its Alteration by Oral Administration of Potentized Homeopathic Drug, Ginseng D200," Berlin Journal of Research in Homeopathy, 1991, 1,4/5:254. Also Khuda-Bukhsh, A.R. Maity, S., "Alteration of Cytogenetic Effects by Oral Administration of Potentized Homeopathic Drug, Ruta graveolens in Mice Exposed to Sub-lethal X-radiation," Berlin Journal of Research in Homeopathy, 1991 explored the benefits of homeopathic preps to protect against radiation. Albino mice were exposed to 100 to 200 rad of X-rays (sublethal doses) and then evaluated after 24, 48, and 72 hours. Ginseng 6x, 30x, and 200x and Ruta graveolens 30x and 200x were administered before and after exposure. When compared with mice given placebo as treatment, mice given any of the above homeopathic medicines experienced significantly less chromosomal or cellular damage. Although I still don't understand how the placebo effect works in a lab mouse who doesnt know it is getting any treatment ... assuming there is a psychological component to the placebo effect.

In J. Bildet, M. Guyot, F. Bonini, et al., "Demonstrating the Effects of Apis mellifica and Apium virus Dilutions on Erythema Induced by U.V. Radiation on Guinea Pigs," Berlin Journal of Research in Homeopathy, 1990, 1:28. albino guinea pigs were exposed to small doses of X-ray cause reddening of the skin. Studies showed that Apis mellifica 7c or 9c had a protective effect and a roughly 50% curative effect on X-ray-induced redness of the skin.

In one series of my favorite studies (I have written several books on frogs and salamanders) Thyroxine 30x (thyroid hormone) was placed in the water of tadpoles. When compared to tadpoles who were given a placebo, the study showed, morphogenesis of the tadpoles into frogs was slowed for those who were exposed to the homeopathic doses. Because thyroid hormone in crude doses is known to speed up morphogenesis, it makes sense from a homeopathic perspective that homeopathic doses would slow it down.

P.C. Endler, W. Pongratz, G. Kastberg, et al., "The Effect of Highly Diluted Agitated Thyroxine on the Climbing Activity of Frogs," Veterinary and Human Toxicology, 1994, 36:56.

P.C. Endler, W. Pongratz, R. van Wijk, et al., "Transmission of Hormone Information by Non-molecular Means," FASEB Journal, 1994, 8, Abs.2313.



I could go on but why bother? I hope the above series of posts on animal studies involving these preparations meets the demands of the poster(s) who were incredulous regarding their
existence. These are just a few I found easily. Many of such studies are by non-homeopaths or in collaboration with non-homeopaths and basic scientists who don't otherwise have an interest or any belief systems involving homeopathy ... at least not until they had done their research. Yet another reason "further" research needs to be done before we close the door on this interesting subject.
 
SteveGrenard said:
You can wade through this outdated volume from 200 years ago instead of reading the modern literature of the subject; but, this is the same as reading a 200 year old book on infectious diseases or a three hundred year old text on materia medica. It has little or no relevance today. Quack baiters and cynics like to latch on to historical documents such as this.

Steve, you once again demonstrate your ignorance of the topic. Homeopaths refer to the Organon of Medicine as THE authority on how medicine works, and claim that the entire theory of disease and treatment as described by "allopaths" is completely erroneous. For homeopathy to work, the Organon of Medicine must be the correct view of medicine.
 
Re: More poor mousies, rats and some guinea pigs as well...

SteveGrenard said:

I could go on but why bother? I hope the above series of posts on animal studies involving these preparations meets the demands of the poster(s) who were incredulous regarding their
existence. These are just a few I found easily. Many of such studies are by non-homeopaths or in collaboration with non-homeopaths and basic scientists who don't otherwise have an interest or any belief systems involving homeopathy ... at least not until they had done their research. Yet another reason "further" research needs to be done before we close the door on this interesting subject.

Yes, do not bother. Those "studies" prove nothing. We could never publish such studies - I would not even present such experiments with absurdly low n per cell at an internal presentation - I'd be laughed off the podium! :D This appears to be the modus operandi for homeopathic researchers - use ridiculously low numbers of subjects per cell and then tinker with the data to feather out a statistically significant effect.

Once again, the proof is very simple. Run well-conducted and controlled, randomized clinicals with sufficient sample size (equivalent to phase III FDA trials: 300-1000+ per cell) and show a statistical and clinically significant effect.
 
SteveGrenard said:
That's strange. If there is no such thing then why do reputable, serious publishers such as this incorporate the term in the title? Why does the NIH have a branch that is looking into, er, this term? Why are there thousands of websites that incorporate or integrate the term into what they are describing? Do you know what it means? Obviously not if you think or would have us believe it does not exist.

You just think you can declare something as non-existent and the world will bow to your infinite wisdom and knowledge?
I doubt it.
"Alternative" is a label of convenience in the situations you describe. When we say there is no such thing as "alternative" medicine, we are saying there is either medicine that works or medicine that does not work. The alternative to medicine that works is, well, nothing.

Unfortunately, marketing people use the term "alternative" to imply that their remedies are all-natural, harmless "alternatives" to other drugs.
 
Steve,

The two studies that you presented had laughably low sample sizes. Is there a study at hand that has 100's of critters and was done in some well known western laboratory? There must be something that you can point to.

You do realize that the guns that you are bringing out to date (That chinese guy at the failed company, and these last two papers) do not exactly make your case?
 
Re: More poor mousies, rats and some guinea pigs as well...

SteveGrenard said:
These are just a few I found easily.
Well, of course you did. Most of them are included in the systematic reviews of homoeopathic studies I've posted links to several times. The frogs and thyroxine study occupies particular pride of place as an example of total experimental lunacy. (When you get to the point where the frogs still climb faster even though the thyroxine solution - or is it energy-imprint of thyroxine? - is isolated from them in a sealed glass vial, and the authors, instead of considering this as a control experiment, then theorise that there is some sort of undetectable radiant energy - the "biophoton" - being emitted from the vial, you know that sanity is not part of the conversaion.)

THERE'S NOTHING THERE. And I'll tell you something else, there isn't a single properly controlled trial of homoeopathy in animal treatment which shows the slightest hint of a therapeutic effect. Various companies have applied to get homoeopathic remedies licensed under the regular veterinary drug regulations, and never has any demonstrable effect been shown. (I just heard about one of these, where the regulator remarked that there was a real problem. Normal toxicity testing would require the target species to be given a 5x normal dose, and to show no ill effects. But in homoeopathy, should that be five times more concentrated, or five times more dilute? It was all irrelevant though, because there was no demonstrated therapeutic action.)

These small, non-significant, sweat-the-statistics trials have been torn apart and left for dead many times. In print. And on this very thread. But Steve resolutely refuses to consider the critical articles, and keeps going back to the original material claiming that it needs to be investigated further. NO, IT DOESN'T. It's been totally discredited. And countered by a heap of much better-designed studies which have shown null effect.

I'll say it once more. No matter how many review articles tear them apart, and no matter how many well-designed studies contradict their findings, these silly dabblings will always be there, in the literature, to be cited by Steve. If the amount of contrary evidence available as of now isn't enough to allow a rational observer to move on and consider this question answered, then nothing will ever be enough. If Steve won't look openmindedly at the counter side of the literature, then no additions to that literature will make any impact on him.

I'm intrigued by the way Steve repeatedly homes in on the occasional mis-informed statement and spends a ton of time and effort refuting these, but studiously ignores the really tricky deliveries. And about why he's doing this.

I asked before, but I'll try again. Steve, why are you so set on giving credence to anything which looks as if it might support homoeopathy, and revering the academic credentials of those on that side of the argument, but at the same time dismiss all the critical articles as biassed, and ignore the stellar academic credentials of the authors of THESE? Do you feel a need or a desire that something mystical or inexplicable should be true? Have you had a personal experience which makes you think it might be true? Do you have a business interest in homoeopathic products?

You don't come over to me as an unbiassed inquirer, but as someone intent on seeing good or potential for good only on one side of the argument. I think "why?" is a reasonable question under these circumstances.

Rolfe.
 
SteveGrenard said:
Here is another mouse study, this one with ten mice --:) from Israel:

: Harefuah. 1992 Aug;123(3-4):79-82, 156. Related Articles, Links

[Wound healing by homeopathic silica dilutions in mice]

[Article in Hebrew]

Oberbaum M, Markovits R, Weisman Z, Kalinkevits A, Bentwich Z.

Ruth Ben-Ari Institute of Clinical Immunology, Kaplan Hospital, Rehovot.

Highly diluted solutions of silica are widely used in homeopathic medicine to treat lesions such as chronic wounds, ulcers, and abscesses. We tested the therapeutic effects of homeopathic dilutions of silica on induced chronic wounds. Holes were made in the ears of mice by dental wire, which then remained hanging from the ear to cause persistent mechanical irritation. In each experiment 3 or 4 groups of 10 mice each were treated by adding homeopathic dilutions of silica (10(-10), 10(-60), 10(-400)) and of saline (10(-10), respectively, to the drinking water of the mice for 4-20 days. The size of the wound holes was measured every second day (grades 0-4) and/or by an objective image analysis system. The results showed that in 7/11 experiments the ear holes of the silica-treated animals were significantly smaller (p less than 0.05-0.001) and healed faster than in those treated with saline. Also the therapeutic effect increased progressively with increase in dilution of the silica (10(-10) less than 10(-60) less than 10(-400)). These results show that homeopathic dilutions of silica (even well beyond Avogadro's number) clearly have a therapeutic effect on wound healing and that our experimental model for studying wound healing is a very useful tool for such studies.

And what about the control group that they just used plain old saline on? Oh, there was none? Then this is a seriously flawed 'study'.
 
487 Patient Study

487 patients were recruited by 149 general practitioners (mostly non-homoeopaths) in the Rhone-Alpes region of France during the influenza epidemic of January-February 1987. Entry criteria were: rectal temperature of 38 C or above, and at least two of the following symptoms: headache, stiffness, lumbar or articular pain and shivers. The first manifestations had to have occurred less than 24 hours before entry. Patients with immune deficiency, local infection, or who had been immunized against influenza were excluded. Diagnosis was purely clinical, although the A H1N1 influenza virus was subsequently identified as being responsible for the epidemic. Patients were randomly assigned to active Oscillococcinum (237 patients) or identical placebo (241 patients), 5 doses at 12 hour intervals. Recovery was defined as temperature less than 37.5oC, with complete resolution of the 5 cardinal symptoms. Results: After 48 hours, 17% of the active treatment group had fully recovered, compared to 10% of the placebo group. This difference was statistically significant (p=0.03, X2 test). Further analysis showed that the effect of Oscillococcinum peaked at 36 hours, when 40% of recoveries were attributable to the treatment. It was most effective in younger patients - 68% of recoveries within 48 hours in the under-30’s were due to treatment; and when the illness was relatively mild - 52% of the recoveries from illnesses classified mild or moderate were due to treatment. Patients on active treatment used significantly less other treatment for pain and fever (50% v 41%, p=0.04), they also judged the active treatment more efficacious than placebo (61% v 49% p=0.02).

Ref:Ferley JP, Zmirou D, D’Adhemar D, Balducci F. A controlled evaluation of a homoeopathic preparation in influenza-like syndromes. Br J Clin Pharmacology (1989)
 
And what about the control group that they just used plain old saline on? Oh, there was none? Then this is a seriously flawed 'study'.

This is not clear. They say 3 or 4 groups of ten mice, thats 30 or 40 mice, some of which were controls. One would have to read the full text which I do not have, to assess how many received the saline placebo. Nothing flawed, just not clear.
 
Not clear equals flawed in scientific terms I'm afraid. They need to show us how the mice with just saline healed compared to how the 'treated' mice healed. And then show why or if there was any difference.
 
The frogs and thyroxine study occupies particular pride of place as an example of total experimental lunacy. (When you get to the point where the frogs still climb faster even though the thyroxine solution - or is it energy-imprint of thyroxine? - is isolated from them in a sealed glass vial, and the authors, instead of considering this as a control experiment, then theorise that there is some sort of undetectable radiant energy - the "biophoton" - being emitted from the vial, you know that sanity is not part of the conversaion.)

Reply: By faster climbing, the authors were not referring to the speed in which frogs climb but rather the amount of time it takes them to metamorphose from tadpoles to legged animals capable of climbing. If you are familiar with anuran metamorphosis you will know that the hind legs erupt first, making climbing still impossible or still difficult and then the front legs follow. Reabsorption of the tail continues to occur after all 4 legs bud. Then climbing or hauling out of the water is possible. I am not responsible for the authors theories regarding how they explain the effects they observe, I am interested only in the observations. Geez, a few posts ago I was told we should not be interested in theories explaining how. Its amazing to see how goal posts around here are shifted back and forth.





These small, non-significant, sweat-the-statistics trials have been torn apart and left for dead many times. In print. And on this very thread. But Steve resolutely refuses to consider the critical articles, and keeps going back to the original material claiming that it needs to be investigated further. NO, IT DOESN'T. It's been totally discredited. And countered by a heap of much better-designed studies which have shown null effect.
.

Reply: We know about the articles or studies discrediting the modality. What we are questionning here is those studies, and please dont say they dont exist (stick your hand into somebody else's sandbox sand) that do show some effect as a reason for further large scale Phased trials per FDA protocols to find out once and for all. Oh, we heard from those skeptics who say there is no reason for those. Well since according to those same people they have not ocurred as yet, I am sorry, but there is a need for them. If you or a loved one were dying of liver cancer and had six months (if that) and Memorial Sloan Kettering and every top cancer specialist in the world have written you off, would you try homeopathy? Or if the big cancer centers consider it might be worth a shot to spend a few hundred grand trying to save you, would you also consider spending an extra twenty dollars trying some homeopathic water concomittanly? Sweat or torture results, its the same vocabularly. See it repeatedly used by skeptics running out of more plasuible explanations but fine, think what you want. Until we have the defining studies proving yes or no, nobody cares.



I'm intrigued by the way Steve repeatedly homes in on the occasional mis-informed statement and spends a ton of time and effort refuting these, but studiously ignores the really tricky deliveries. And about why he's doing this..

Reply: I think this is a riot. This is exactly what all of you do here in your refutation act. If I do it, I guess I learned the technique right here.

I asked before, but I'll try again. Steve, why are you so set on giving credence to anything which looks as if it might support homoeopathy, and revering the academic credentials of those on that side of the argument, but at the same time dismiss all the critical articles as biassed, and ignore the stellar academic credentials of the authors of THESE? Do you feel a need or a desire that something mystical or inexplicable should be true? Have you had a personal experience which makes you think it might be true? Do you have a business interest in homoeopathic products?

Reply: Very very silly questions. My position has been made repeatedly clear. I am trying to get you to see the need for further large scale FDA-type if not FDA mandated studies of these claims. I base this demand on what studies I can find out there. If you want to appeal to authority, I am guilty of that as well by offering papers from non-homeopathic institutions by non-homeopathic authors. However, I do not even understand why this is so important. I do not expect non-surgeons to do surgical research, I don't expect rheumatolgists to publish on pulmonary diseases and don't expect neurologists to do cardiology research on the side.

If somebody here decides to organize yet another petition to the FDA, I would hope it would mirror that of Kurtz, Randi et al of a few years ago and demand these studies, not wholesale refutation.
Did you miss that post? No? Yes.. or was it selectively bypassed by the cynics and closed minded skeptics around here.?

You don't come over to me as an unbiassed inquirer, but as someone intent on seeing good or potential for good only on one side of the argument. I think "why?" is a reasonable question under these circumstances.

Reply: Yup, and you got the answer. If you know what's inside my head more than I do, then its you who are deluding yourself. Or maybe you're telepathic?
 
SteveGrenard said:
If you or a loved one were dying of liver cancer and had six months (if that) and Memorial Sloan Kettering and every top cancer specialist in the world have written you off, would you try homeopathy? Or if the big cancer centers consider it might be worth a shot to spend a few hundred grand trying to save you, would you also consider spending an extra twenty dollars trying some homeopathic water concomittanly?

No I wouldn't, because there is no possibility that homeopathy could cure cancer. I would, however, certainly try other what you call "alternative" treatments that at least have a chance of having therapeutic value.
 

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