Homeopathy is everywhere!

[thaiboxerken]

Do they meet with your approval?

Nope. When they claim the JREF million or show effectiveness of homeopathy, feel free to bring them up again. It's absolutely ridiculous to try and show how homeopathy works when it has not been shown that homeopathy DOES work.

 

[Ed]

Fair enough -- let's get away from the circle of jerks then.
Now that we have qualified the above persons as non-jerks, let's see what they have come up with (from a free to use public press
release):

Lets see, indeed. Ummmmm how about fraud for starters

http://www.doj.state.or.us/FinFraud/theforce.htm
Substantiation Documents

Note: The Department has previously posted the affidavit of Dr. Andrew Blackwood and settlement documents relating to "The Laundry Solution" and other products. We have since received requests for various file documents from members of the general public and media representatives. We have waived any applicable privileges to the limited extent of disclosing the following documents.

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

TO: FILE 137420.XCP0095-97 (THE FORCE, DOJ V)

FR: Robert Roth
Assistant Attorney General

RE: Substantiation Documents

DA: December 2, 1997 [Updated May 13, 1998]

Privileged and Confidential
Attorney Work Product
Prepared In Contemplation of Litigation:



"The Force" ("Force") is a sausage-shaped product advertised by American Technologies Group, Inc. ("ATG") as increasing gas mileage and improving engine performance when placed in the air intake system of a motor vehicle. ATG represents that the "active ingredient" in "The Force" consists of "Ie Crystals," said to be a substance discovered and now manufactured by ATG.


ATG General Counsel John Dab in a May 21, 1997 letter to me made a number of representations regarding what he referred to as "It Crystals" ("le," "IE," or "IE") . Those representations are relevant here both because the purported existence of "Ie described as a new form of ice stable at room temperatures, is integral to the product claims for Force, and also because the truth value of the statements bear on the credibility of ATG and Mr. Dab. In his letter, Mr. Dab stated, inter alia, that:
TRADENET had contacted ATG "to see if we could provide a scientific basis for the performance of their Laundry Solution"; based on a "preliminary analysis," ATG told TRADENET that "the globes were weak in their effect on water and that the concentration" (of "structured water") "was erratic and unreliable"; that ATG offered to provide "an interim solution with consistent quality containing our Ie crystals at higher crystalline concentrations than in their existing product and provide a scientific explanation as to how the solution works." Mr. Dab stated further that ATG had conducted studies which "indicate that ATG's globe contains Ie crystals" and that "when the globes are placed in water overnight, the water in which the ATG globe was placed has Ie crystals." Mr. Dab enclosed with the letter ATG's 4/1/97 "R&D Report" which he said "explains why the Ie crystals reduce the surface tension of water thereby increasing waters ability to dissolve dirt." Mr. Dab also enclosed two vials of water and stated that one of the vials contained "Ie" and that shaking the vials would produce bubbles in the vial with the "I.e." but not in the other vial. Finally, Mr. Dab stated that analysis of the samples "in accordance with the procedures in our R&D Reports will identify the water containing I.e..


And on it goes.

Frauds

Later in the document


As University of Oregon chemistry professor Dr. Paul Engelking put it, if "le" were real, its discovery, and Loí s description of it, would be Nobel Prize material, disproving several fundamental principles of physics and warranting publication in Nature or Science, not in an obscure letters journal like Modern Physics Letters B. It is nevertheless in Modern Physics Letters B that Lo chose to publish his work [and, significantly, there has been no follow-up publication in any more thoroughly peer-reviewed journal. See discussion in my "Vol. 3" memorandum] . The "direct evidence" for "le" presented in these articles consists of the photographs they contain. However, the articles also present descriptions of supposed experimental evidence. It does not leap out at the lay reader, but promptly impressed experts to whom I showed this material, that Loís own experimental "evidence" contradicts him in a number of places. The articles contain inconsistencies any meaningful peer review should have caught. For example, Lo states, "If water molecules group together to form larger structures such as the [IE] structure that is proposed, then the resulting structured water should have a larger dielectric constant." Lo, "Physical Properties of Water with Ie Structures," p. 923 (emphasis added). Yet Loís own experimental finding is that "the [IE] structured water has a twenty percent smaller dielectric constant." (Id.; emphasis added.)


Steve, will you believe anything that supports your world view? Incidentially, this was the second or third hit when I googoled that miricle ice thing.

 

[Ed]

I guess that they are jerks afterall.

 

[SteveGrenard]

How about accusations of fraud for starters which went nowhere and the corporation is alive and well and, in fact marketing its performance improvement devices for automobiles
and continuing its research in this area. It is curious that this
affidavit/memorandum and that's all it is, came out about five seconds after their press release back in 1997. It didn't take long for someone (e.g. Blackwood) to get upset about Lo's discovery.
If I was appealing to authroity like Thai here, and I would have to weigh that credibility, I would put more credibility in the jerks listed above than a person I don't know named Blackwood who filed an affidavit that ended up in the trash ...obviously.

from: http://www.ateg.com


About The Company

It is the vision of American Technologies Group, Inc. (ATG), a public corporation organized under the laws of the State of Nevada (OTC:BB ATEG), to be recognized as a leading research and development Company for the discovery, development and commercialization of innovative technologies that are environmentally sound and cost competitive.
ATG's focus has been redirected almost fully from research and development to the marketing and sale of its products. Although research and development will always be a portion of ATG's strategy, the Board of Directors and management have determined that the promotion and sale of products is where the main focus of the company's attention and effort should be aimed. The promotional strategy of the Company is product-directed. Certain of the products are being promoted through traditional media channels while others are being marketed through strategic alliances and opportunities with companies having existing structures and programs in the promotion, marketing and sale of products related or similar to those of the company.

The Company concentrates its technology discovery and development processes in three core technology areas: 1. Catalyst Technology, 2. Water Purification and 3. High Energy Particle Technologies. The products resulting from development of the catalyst technology are intended to offer cost-effective solutions to reduce and, in some cases, eliminate hazardous chemical by-products or emissions resulting from industrial and combustion processes. Additionally, many commercial products may be improved and enhanced through the use of this proprietary catalyst technology. Such applications include detergents and cosmetics. The water purification technology is currently being developed into a consumer distiller which is expected to reach the market during the first half of calendar year 2001. The high energy particle beam technologies are still in the relatively early stages of development. The fact that these technologies are proprietary to ATG means that the Company is positioned to create new markets for products heretofore unknown and unavailable, and which will continue to be available only to the Company and its customers.



ATG has worked with the following organizations:



KTI Corp.




ATG collaborates with these research centers:



California Institute of Technology (Caltech)
Cranfield University, UK
Moscow State University, Russia
University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA)
University of Manchester, Institute of Science & Technology
UK University of Oklahoma
University of Southern California (USC)
University of Washington, Seattle
Zhongshan University, China





ATG relies on these testing laboratories in product development:



Claude Travis & Associates
Bioscreen Testing Services
West Coast Analytical Service, Inc.
Southwest Research





ATG complies with these regulatory agencies:



California Air Resources Board (CARB)
EPA

 

[Pyrrho]

It would be interesting and certainly the efficacy of drugs are compared with one another all the time in practice. However, for this purpose a common standard upon which to gauge the efficacy of a homeopathic preparation would be the use of a placebo.

Oh, definitely.

Question: does anyone have information about what exactly a placebo is made of?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Although Lo is one of the few water scientists to mention his findings in conjunction with homepathy, I do not rely on the hype his projected commecialization of his findings bode. There is plenty of research by academic institutions on the anomalous properties of water. One subsite you might find interesting is:

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/evidnc.html

as well as back surfing to the water research homepage of this site.



Re: Placebos. Placebos are inactive ingredients that are made up to look like the real thing such as sugar pills disguised as the
actual pill. They have to be designed to appear identical to the
active substance being tested. For homeopathy, I would think
this would involve whatever manner the homeopathic product is being administered. If in a tablet, it should be a small dot milk sugar tablet which appears identical to the homeopathic product but without incorporating it. You could use triple distilled water (e.g. HPLC brand) as a placebo against which to test actual homeopathic liquids. I think HPLC water would be an acceptable placebo for this purpose.

RCTs can be two or three legged. Two legged RCTs would test the substance against placebo, three legged against the substance and a competitive product (comparison test?).

 

[Ed]

ATG complies with these regulatory agencies:



California Air Resources Board (CARB)
EPA

Steve, they are traded on the BB, they are trading at 2/10 of a cent, they are insolvent (no pun). Why are you so taken in by names and affiliations, these guys got closed down Market cap=$200k. That is the value of a small house.

AMER TECHS GRP (OTC BB:ATEG.OB) Quote data by Reuters

Last Trade: 0.002
Trade Time: 11:55AM ET
Change: 0.00 (0.00%)
Prev Close: 0.002
Open: 0.002
Bid: 0.002 x 5000
Ask: 0.006 x 5000
1y Target Est: N/A

Day's Range: 0.002 - 0.002
52wk Range: 0.001 - 0.009
Volume: 100,000
Avg Vol (3m): 12,772
Market Cap: 199.55K
P/E (ttm): N/A
EPS (ttm): 0.00
Div & Yield: N/A (N/A)


1d 5d 3m 6m 1y 2y

Get research reports at breakthrough prices

 

[SteveGrenard]

I do not appeal to authority but apparently Thaiboxerken does so I provided that for him. I agree with you. He would rather have research done by non-homeopathic jerks, whatever that means, than by homeopathic jerks, er, whatever than means. Frankly experts should do research in their respective fields and personalities and labels such as Thaiboxerken likes to use are nothing more than amusing and contradictory............

 

[TLN]

I do not appeal to authority but apparently Thaiboxerken does so I provided that for him. I agree with you. He would rather have research done by non-homeopathic jerks, whatever that means, than by homeopathic jerks, er, whatever than means. Frankly experts should do research in their respective fields and personalities and labels such as Thaiboxerken likes to use are nothing more than amusing and contradictory............

Jeeze Steve, you can't even defend yourself correctly.

The correct response to this would be:

"I guess we should throw out all off of James Randi's work since he's a skeptic out to debunk beliefs. How's that any different than a homeopath doing his own homeopathy research?"

 

[Ed]

How about accusations of fraud for starters which went nowhere and the corporation is alive and well and, in fact marketing its performance improvement devices for automobiles
and continuing its research in this area.

It is effectively out of business, operating out of a PO box. No nobel prize, no nothin'. Why are you insisting that they are alive and well, go to Yahoo Finance and take a look.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Research continues on this subject. Another underlying body of research which may explain homeopathy is dilute degereate atomic gas research. There is a multinational multicenter project that ends next year that is studying this:

A scientific programme of the European Science Foundation (ESF)

Abstract

BEC2000+ is a European network activity on quantum degenerate dilute systems, in particular the Bose-Einstein condensation of trapped atomic gases. The network consists of more than 30 groups from 10 European countries which actively work on theoretical and experimental issues of quantum degenerate dilute atomic gases. Operational activities of the proposed programme consist in the organization of conferences and workshops, the implementation of a scheme of short scientific visits and the implementation of a fellowship programme for young researchers. Objectives of the programme are the strengthening of the European leadership in the experimental realization and theoretical understanding of dilute quantum degenerate atomic gases. The programme shall foster the advancement of existing collaborations, the establishing of contacts between newly formed groups, the fast dissemination of research results, experimental skills and theoretical methods, and the training of young researchers. The programme, which was launched 01 January 2000, will run for four years.

 

[SteveGrenard]

"I guess we should throw out all off of James Randi's work since he's a skeptic out to debunk beliefs. How's that any different than a homeopath doing his own homeopathy research?"


?? So you are sayin Randi does research? Is it published anyhwree in a peer reviewed publication? I wouldn't think of throwing it out. He is eminently qualified, I am sure, to research that which he is an expert on. Where was it stated Randi's research, which frankly I didn't know existed in that format,
shoud be "thrown out" ???

Are you saying infectious disease experts shoud not test antibiotics or that endocrinologists should not test hormone replacement therapies?

 

[Jeff Corey]

Research continues on this subject. Another underlying body of research which may explain homeopathy is dilute degereate atomic gas research.

You don't quite get it. There is nothing to explain.
Water cures dehydration, not any of the diseases claimed by Hanaman's Witchdoctery.

 

[Pyrrho]

Although Lo is one of the few water scientists to mention his findings in conjunction with homepathy, I do not rely on the hype his projected commecialization of his findings bode. There is plenty of research by academic institutions on the anomalous properties of water. One subsite you might find interesting is:

http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/evidnc.html

as well as back surfing to the water research homepage of this site.

Re: Placebos. Placebos are inactive ingredients that are made up to look like the real thing such as sugar pills disguised as the
actual pill. They have to be designed to appear identical to the
active substance being tested. For homeopathy, I would think
this would involve whatever manner the homeopathic product is being administered. If in a tablet, it should be a small dot milk sugar tablet which appears identical to the homeopathic product but without incorporating it. You could use triple distilled water (e.g. HPLC brand) as a placebo against which to test actual homeopathic liquids. I think HPLC water would be an acceptable placebo for this purpose.

RCTs can be two or three legged. Two legged RCTs would test the substance against placebo, three legged against the substance and a competitive product (comparison test?).

I would imagine that a full gamut of tests should be conducted. At first I wondered why a placebo would have to appear identical to the active substance, then I realized that people might make judgments based on appearance and flavor. Clinical drug trials usually do compare to placebo and competitive products.

I don't think homeopathy should be so quick to identify with research into anomalous properties of water, or other rather arcane research. One of the things skeptics object to is that sort of "here's how it works" hypothesizing when the effect itself is not firmly established. It's frustrating, because we're expected to dig into and understand some very complicated science before our comments are granted any credibility. These scavenger hunts might be educational in some respects but they don't address the basic question, which is whether or not homeopathy works at all, or is simply a spin-doctored placebo effect.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

PhD in Physics from University of Chicago, 1966.
Senior Lecturer, University of Melbourne (Australia) circa 1985.
Moved to southern California in 1987.
Joined ATG in 1993.
Visiting associate, Caltech, 1997.

Dr. Shui-Yin Lo of ATG:
.

Not a doctor. No MD, no education in biological sciences. Only in physics.

I can't find out what Selim M. Senkan, PhD. has a phD in, I've searched everything I could. Says something about a doctorate at MIT...a technical school.

http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/research/ice.php

is the only place on the I see a reference to Lawrence J. Brady anywhere. There is no mention of any credentials.

Dr Hugo Paul POMREHN
BS Mechanical Engineering 1960
Warfare Specialty Unknown
Commissioned Ensign USN 1960
Military History [Biography]
Further Education
- USC MS ISE Engineering 1969
- USC PhD ISE 1975
Career Unknown [Biography]
Address Available
Spouse Ellen JONES POMREHN
Email Unknown


From What I can tell, these guys know nothing about the human body and how anything can affect it.

None of them are MDs for sure.

 

[SteveGrenard]

Pyrrho, I disagree that seeking a physico-chemical explanation for purported homeopahic effects is either futile or unimportant. Since the Lancet meta-analysis and the 89 studies it deals with (many were discarded due to design flaws as it proper for a meta-analysis; 89 "good" studies were left) already provides some tantalizing rationales for pursuing this on a non-medical (non-biological basis.) Certainly many aspects of medicine deal with physics (e.g. radiation) on a pure and applied basis, and chemistry in many other respects; it is disingenous to dismiss pure and applied researchers whose findings may impact on explaining the assertions of homeopathic tresearchers who work from provings or observational studies. I realize some consider this attacking the problem backwards, but that's only because homeopathy exists; but... if it did not, then we have to consider the fact many advances have been made from this direction as well.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Many laugh homeopathy out of serious consideration. One of the main reasons concerning this disbelief in the efficacy of homeopathy lies in the difficulty in understanding how it might work. If there was an acceptable theory then more people would consider it more seriously. However, it is difficult at present to sustain a theory as to why a truly infinitely diluted aqueous solution should retain any difference from any other such solution. It is even more difficult to put forward a working hypothesis as to how small quantities of such 'solutions' can act when confronted with large amounts of complex solution in a subject. A key feature of any difference between water before and after its use in preparing homeopathic dilutions is likely to be the ritualized shaking (succussion) that must be carried out between successive dilutions [335]."

excerpted from a much longer review at:
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/homeop.html

by Professor Martin Chaplin....who deals with applied science but is trained in biology and medicine as well. His subsite on water in homeopathy is definitely worth a read.

Professor of Applied Science
Head of the Food Research Centre
London South Bank University

Chaplin's bio:

I graduated in Chemistry from the University of Birmingham, in 1967. Over the following three years I completed a PhD concerned with the structural and biological studies on the glycans in human follicle stimulating hormone, in a collaboration between the University of Birmingham and the Birmingham and Midland Hospital for Women. After two years teaching chemistry at Bunda College of Agriculture at the University of Malawi, East Africa, I returned to the University of Birmingham as a Faculty Research Fellow to continue my work on the glycoprotein hormones and to start some enzyme technology research. My interest in these research areas continued during a lecturing post at the Biochemistry Department of the University of Leeds and during a four-year seconded post at the University of Ghana, West Africa. Since 1985 I have been at South Bank University, London, where I am currently Professor of Applied Science, Head of the Food Research Centre and a University Director of Research. My current interests lie mainly with structural aspects of polysaccharides and water, and I have a particular interest in how dietary fiber may interact with the structure of water and so be beneficial to health

 

[thaiboxerken]

I do not appeal to authority but apparently Thaiboxerken does so I provided that for him.

Appeals to authority are not a fallacy unless that authority is false. I'm still waiting for scientific evidence that homeopathy works.

You still haven't shown any credible evidence.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

My current interests lie mainly with structural aspects of polysaccharides and water, and I have a particular interest in how dietary fiber may interact with the structure of water and so be beneficial to health

polysaccharides?

http://www.mansfield.ohio-state.edu/~sabedon/biol1025.htm



You mean dumb ol carbs/some in the form of fiber. You think it's a mystery how it keeps us regular? Without water you'd eat the fiber and get dry dry dry.


Structure of water/interaction

Common sense, not something worth studying for a long period of time over a couple of hours...

Typical woo woo - make something very simple seem complex with techno-talk.


I'm sure anyone can wrap their head around this:

The more complex carbohydrates such as disaccharides and polysaccharides are composed of monosaccharides (usually glucose) bonded together in sequence.


Starch
Starches are glucose-containing polysaccharides which consists, essentially, of amylose with branches. These branches come off of glucose carbon number six and are themselves highly similar to amylose.
The chief food (i.e., carbohydrate) storage molecule of plants). Though confusing, "starch," as used in this section, is a substance which is considered to be a type of starch, one which is called, simply, "starch."
A starch which contains more branches than the starch found in plants. Glycogen is a carbohydrate storage molecule which is employed by animals).

 

[thaiboxerken]

"Many laugh homeopathy out of serious consideration. One of the main reasons concerning this disbelief in the efficacy of homeopathy lies in the difficulty in understanding how it might work.

Not really, skeptics laugh at homeopathy simply because it doesn't work and has never been shown to work. Trying to understand how it "might" work is irrelevant because it doesn't work. It's as foolish as trying to understand how magic or mediumship works.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

(shocked) What? Don't you think Chaplin's study on how dietary fiber may interact with the structure of water and revolutionize how we treat incontinence?

Oh wait...

We only have a million laxatives out there already...and we actually know how fiber and water 'interact'.