Homeopathy is everywhere!

[DogB]

[Near homeopathic doses, as little as 10 micrograms, are used in the trials currently underway. Yes, not quite homeopathic but an example of where like cures like in mainstream or allopathic medicine.

Excuse me???

Homeopathic remedies are unlikely to have even one molecule of the 'active' substance.

If we use a fairly typical molecular weight figure for Alpha-neurotoxin of 8.05 kilodaltons. Then a 10 ug dose contains approximately 7.5E14 molecules.

"Not quite homeopathic"???

I would say that calling that "near homeopathic doses" is disingenuous at best.

P.

Ps. By the way nobody denies that in some cases a substance may assist in the treatment of a disease which it causes. That is the theory behind vaccination. The difference is that there is good scientific evidence for its efficacy and a logical theory for its action. Modern medical research also refuses to assume that just because it works in one process, we can come up with a fancy slogan (like cures like) and treat all the world ills with it. Would you treat a bullet wound with minute traces of lead?

Pps. Also. I've been working in the drinking water industry for 10 years now and I can tell you that if you look at normal tap water hard enough you can find a molecule of any compound you care to name. We should all be cured of every disease known to man when we drink a glass of water from the tap. Idiocy!

 

[SteveGrenard]

...if we use a fairly typical molecular weight figure for Alpha-neurotoxin of 8.05 kilodaltons. Then a 10 ug dose contains approximately 7.5E14 molecules.

"Not quite homeopathic"???

I would say that calling that "near homeopathic doses" is disingenuous at best.

Response: The MW of this alpha-neurotoxin is actually 7.831 kilodaltons (fr Naja siamensis or Naja n siamensis) but why do you insist in subverting what I wrote? Its disingenous of you to translate this to homeopathic but even so, it was clearly stated said NOT quite homeopathic in reference to this example. It is an example of an extremely small dose of a substance, that in much larger doses causes similar neurologic symptoms (in ALS and MS) than that being treated by the extremely small and obviously much safer dose.

Thank you for acknowledging the principles of vaccination and immunotherapy. We've been there and done that .................
again an example of how an extremely small dose (not homeopathic ....I have said that) can provoke immunity to
the infectious organism from which it was derived. The
example provided by the neurotoxin illustrates that the similars do not always have to involve development of immune globulins or antibodies to known infectious agents. This protein targets the
nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (NAchR) in nerve and muscle tissue and functions by preventing depolarization of post-synaptic membranes through regulation of ion channels. It has no enzymatic activity and is toxic solely by reason of its affinity for the receptor. Is there something of interest here for the homeopathic debate? Perhaps. Perhaps not. This merely is an example of "like treats like" albeit on a larger scale....well a somewhat larger scale.

 

[BTox]

With allopathic or conventional medications, it is often found that there is, for example, no difference found between placebo and active substance with respect to side effects. For example, and this is just an example, let's say headache is targeted as a side reported effect in a population where headache occurs 10% of the time. If 10% of the active ingredient recipients reported headache and 10% of the placebo takers also reported (or numbers close to that) heache, the presumption is that 10% of the all the recipients ... the population of all recipients ...experienced headaches and that neither the active substance or the placebo in fact caused these headaches.
It is interesting to note that if the researchers were testing a drug in people duffering from severe headache, headache shows up as a side effect in both the placebo and the active group.

What does this mean?

that water causes headaches?
that water doesn't cure headaches?
that the active drug cures some of the headaches?
that the drug itself causes headaches?
that the recipient group are prone to these side effects without
having taken either placebo or the active drug?

My point: there can be some serious problems wrenching out the significance of the findings in drug studies that are random, double blind AND placebo controlled.

The analysis of side effects addresses the safety part of the equation, efficacy being the other. To show a drug is effective, it must show a significant difference from placebo, both statistically and clinically. For example, a small statistically significant effect may be of no clinical significance, and you will not get approval for your drug. From all the studies I've seen on homeopathy, they are either statistically significant but not clinically, or, more commonly, no difference at all vs placebo.

I have not seen any positive studies of homeopathic trials where there is a similar (%) between reported positive effects and no effect. The homeopathic community, of course, point to positive end-points in resolution of the diagnosis rather than the fact that pure water and active substances work equally as well. I think they are looking at symptom resolution at much higher rates than those of pure water recipients. I will have to read some of those studies again and get back to you on the numbers. From what you say, the studies you have looked at had similar %s between both groups. Can you reference those?

These are some of the most recently conducted studies:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12799863&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12919110&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12716269&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12668794&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12562974&dopt=Abstract

 

[SteveGrenard]

DogB adds: Pps. Also. I've been working in the drinking water industry for 10 years now and I can tell you that if you look at normal tap water hard enough you can find a molecule of any compound you care to name. We should all be cured of every disease known to man when we drink a glass of water from the tap. Idiocy!

Answer: I agree that tap water, heck even bottled water has molecules of various substances in them; as a water worker you know how these analyses shape up: salts, minerals, etc. and who knows what else as you say. And yes, diluted in a resevoir full of millions of gallons certainly makes for a very high and potent dilution by homeopathic primciples .... save for one important step. Lets see if people have been paying attention and can surmise what that is?

 

[DogB]

Response: The MW of this alpha-neurotoxin is actually 7.831 kilodaltons (fr Naja siamensis or Naja n siamensis).......

Close enough. Add another couple hundred billion or so molecules to my figure if you wish.

but why do you insist in subverting what I wrote? Its disingenous of you to translate this to homeopathic but even so, it was clearly stated said NOT quite homeopathic in reference to this example.....

I'm sorry I didn't realize that the words "near homeopathic dose" really meant nothing like a homeopathic dose.

Don't try and ◊◊◊◊ me sir. The reference you provided was an attempt to link a very promising and logical piece of medical research to the stupidity of homeopathy. That's why you brought it up. If you weren't trying to do this, then why the hell did you tell us about it.

It is an example of an extremely small dose of a substance, that in much larger doses causes similar neurologic symptoms (in ALS and MS) than that being treated by the extremely small and obviously much safer dose.

So? Coincidence?

Thank you for acknowledging the principles of vaccination and immunotherapy. We've been there and done that .................
again an example of how an extremely small dose (not homeopathic ....I have said that) can provoke immunity to
the infectious organism from which it was derived. The
example provided by the neurotoxin illustrates that the similars do not always have to involve development of immune globulins or antibodies to known infectious agents. This protein targets the
nicotinic acetylcholine receptor (NAchR) in nerve and muscle tissue and functions by preventing depolarization of post-synaptic membranes through regulation of ion channels. It has no enzymatic activity and is toxic solely by reason of its affinity for the receptor. Is there something of interest here for the homeopathic debate? Perhaps. Perhaps not. This merely is an example of "like treats like" albeit on a larger scale....well a somewhat larger scale.

So?? Once again...coincidence.

 

[DogB]

DogB adds: Pps. Also. I've been working in the drinking water industry for 10 years now and I can tell you that if you look at normal tap water hard enough you can find a molecule of any compound you care to name. We should all be cured of every disease known to man when we drink a glass of water from the tap. Idiocy!

Answer: I agree that tap water, heck even bottled water has molecules of various substances in them; as a water worker you know how these analyses shape up: salts, minerals, etc. and who knows what else as you say. And yes, diluted in a resevoir full of millions of gallons certainly makes for a very high and potent dilution by homeopathic primciples .... save for one important step. Lets see if people have been paying attention and can surmise what that is?

The gullibility of the consumer?

 

[BTox]

I don't believe in magicial health systems, but thanks for another strawman for my collection.
[/B]

Glad to add to your collection. I see why you need them!

Well, that is where you are incorrect. I'm not pushing anything. I'm for exploring homeopathy more. There have been several studies where significance was found. We could find there is a real effect, or we could find a sloppy experimental design, etc. I'm about as impartial on homeopathy as I am on any other area of science. But I am not impartial about science as a whole, and that is why we must test things.


That is interesting, because there are some studies that say there is some significance. True, we don't know what that exactly means (effect, or some error), but that is why we must do more tests.

[/B]

Okay, you're not pushing anything. I'll buy that. And I now agree, we need to test homeopathy one more time, just in case after 100+ years, it suddenly starts working. Imagine, all we have to do is take common substances, dilute the bejeesus out of them and, poof, they turn into potent drugs that cure all diseases without any side effects. I'm writing my congressman ASAP, demanding the U.S. government spend billions of dollars on this mystery!

 

[SteveGrenard]

Thank you BoTox for posting these studies. I posted several that did not involve mental, or possibly psychsomatic or stress related diseases (e.g. some types of asthma) or pain attenuation (the hand surgery study). Please see the childhood diarrhea and otitis media studies and the ileus study that contained results which favored the active substance. Pyrrho may've posted some of the ones you reference by URL in full text of abstracts. Other ones which Pyrrho posted contained inconclusive results and called for more studies. Therefore, you cannot cling to those studies which support your preconceived notions or biases but should look at all of them. You came into this saying there were NONE that favored homeopathy over placebo and if you scroll back you will see that this is simply not true. But thank you for answering.
There are certainly some which favor your position but there are also others which do not.

 

[BTox]

You came into this saying there were NONE that favored homeopathy over placebo and if you scroll back you will see that this is simply not true. But thank you for answering.
There are certainly some which favor your position but there are also others which do not.

Correction, I said there were no well-controlled and conducted clinical trials that show efficacy over placebo. Of course there are published studies that show significance with homeopathy, which is why I went into the issue of how easy it is to design a study to show effects with something that is completely inert. None of the studies that Pyrrho linked qualify as well controlled and conducted. I've read a lengthy discussion on the many problems with the childhood diarrhea study, one that homeopathy is desperately clinging to at the moment. When I find it, I'll post a link.

 

[BTox]

And yes, diluted in a resevoir full of millions of gallons certainly makes for a very high and potent dilution by homeopathic primciples .... save for one important step. Lets see if people have been paying attention and can surmise what that is?

Let me guess - succussion, right? This is another amusing absurdity of homeopathy, that vigorously shaking a dilution "potentizes" it. As a chemist, I know that whenever we make solutions and dilutions, vigorous shaking is always part of the protocol.But when I make a solution of a certain drug at say, 0.03% and it shows excellent efficacy against a certain physiological condition, then dilute it to 0.0003% and it shows no efficacy whatsoever, how is this to be explained from a homeopathic standpoint?

 

[SteveGrenard]

You get the cigar BoTox. If you missed it above, this article describes research on thermodynamics of water tied to succusion. I also remember another reference indicating that the shaking may serve to create a static charge in the water involving the solute before it is diluted out of existence.

http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/research/thermodynamics.php

Regardless of how ridiculous you think this is, the shaking between successive dilutions is part of the claim so DogB's drinking water resevoir, while it may contain non-existent traces of substances which have been present in the past (in fact doesn't all water if you think about it ?), the fact that this water is not prepared in this manner obviates the presumption that all water can cure all ills. So if you are preparing a solution at .003 and then diluting it to .0003, I suggest you try shaking it before you dilute. And so on, for each dilution step. This is what homeopathy claims. Er, but there's another rub. Whatever it is you are trying to cure needs to be treated by some stuff which also causes the problem (e.g. neurotoxin for neuromuscular paralysis or heparin for DIC hemorrhage for example) or aconsumption coaguopathy.


DogB also thinks it is a coincidence that a substance that causes neuromuscular paralysis can in low (yes, not homeopathic) doses help cure it. While I am not going to sit here all right and give him more coincidences, I wonder if he knows that the treatment for DIC which causes death by massive hemorrhage is an anti-coagualant: heparin? Okay ... one more "coincidence" then.

What are drugs like caffeine, amphetamines and ritalin?
Stimulants right?

Guess what they are used to treat? hyperactivity in children.
In fact the stimulant amphetamine and its relatives, originally diet pills, were declared by the FDA as being prescribable for only one indication: hyperactivity and made into controlled substances.


So here is yet another example of "like treating like." But yes, I know ..... in milligram doses, not homeopathic doses.

 

[BTox]

So if you are preparing a solution at .003 and then diluting it to .0003, I suggest you try shaking it before you dilute. And so on, for each dilution step. This is what homepathy claims. Er, but theres another rub. Whatever it is you are trying to cure needs to be treated by some stuff which also causes the problem (e.g. neurotoxin for neuromuscular paralysis or heparin for DIC hemorrhage for example).

As I said above, shaking/mixing for each dilution step is always carried out. And we don't see any potentization, only the opposite effect, as the drug gets diluted below the point of physiological activity.

DogB also thinks it is a coincidence that a substance that causes neuromuscular paralysis can in low (yes, not homeopathic) doses help cure it. While I am not going to sit here all right and give him more coincidences, I wonder if he knows that the treatment for DIC which causes death by massive hemorrhage is an anti-coagualant: heparin? Okay ... one more "coincidence" hen. What are drugs like caffeine, amphetamines and ritalin? Stimulants right?

Guess what they are used to treat? hyperactivity in children.
In fact the stimulant amphetamine and its relatives, originally diet pills, were declared by the FDA as being prescribable for only one indication: hyperactivity.


So here is yet another example of "like treating like." But yes, I know ..... in milligram doses, not homeopathic doses.

Yes, there are a few examples in modern medicine of "like curing like", but it is the exception, not the rule. And it is, like all other real drugs, dose dependent. You give a hyperactive child 20 mg of amphetamine, it calms them down. You give the same child 20 ug of amphetamine, no matter how prepared, it does nothing. This is a very basic principle of chemistry that homeopathy fails to comply to, which is one reason why it does not work.

 

[DogB]

You get the cigar BoTox. If you missed it above, this article describes research on thermodynamics of water tied to succusion. I also remember another reference indicating that the shaking may serve to create a static charge in the water involving the solute before it is diluted out of existence.

http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/research/thermodynamics.php

Regardless of how ridiculous you think this is, the shaking between successive dilutions is part of the claim so DogB's drinking water resevoir, while it may contain non-existent traces of substances which have been present in the past (in fact doesn't all water if you think about it ?), the fact that this water is not prepared in this manner obviates the presumption that all water can cure all ills. So if you are preparing a solution at .003 and then diluting it to .0003, I suggest you try shaking it before you dilute. And so on, for each dilution step. This is what homepathy claims. Er, but theres another rub. Whatever it is you are trying to cure needs to be treated by some stuff which also causes the problem (e.g. neurotoxin for neuromuscular paralysis or heparin for DIC hemorrhage for example). ?

Oh yeah. Our water falls thousands of feet as rain, tumbles down miles of river, is pumped up 35m to the treatment plant, is filtered and disinfected, is pumped to the storage, and finally comes out your tap. But it doesn't get shaken....no certainly not.

DogB also thinks it is a coincidence that a substance that causes neuromuscular paralysis can in low (yes, not homeopathic) doses help cure it. While I am not going to sit here all right and give him more coincidences, I wonder if he knows that the treatment for DIC which causes death by massive hemorrhage is an anti-coagualant: heparin? [/B]

This one's no a coincidence at all. Do you know what DIC stands for? Disseminated intravascular coagulation. It's a condition caused by excessive activation of the coagulation pathways. And it's treated with an anticoagulant? Shock!!!

Yes one of the symptoms is hemorrhage but that's due to thrombotic rupture of blood vessels.


Are you saying that like always cures like?

The antibiotic ear-drops which I'm using are currently curing my ear infection. Hang on......no that doesn't seem to work.

If you're saying that "coincidentally, like sometimes cures like" then we are in perfect agreement.

P.

 

[RichardR]

Steve Grenard:

Richard, try these studies for your "made-up" theory. SH may've made this up as you say or he may've been fooling around in his kitchen one day and noticed an effect or whatever but it is irrelevant to modern research studies on this subject now.

Now I've heard everything. Samuel Hahnemann was fooling around in his kitchen one day and noticed an effect or whatever. I can just see the citations now in the scientific papers: "Samuel Hahnemann was fooling around in his kitchen one day and noticed an effect or whatever".

Steve – it is not irrelevant. Unless there was a method used to determine the principles, and unless there is a mechanism, and this mechanism is falsifiable and has been tested, then it is just made up. And that matters because if it is just made up, it is highly unlikely to have any basis in fact, and there is little reason to suppose it to be true. At the very least, it means that the evidence in support of it must be very strong – not based on questionable experiments that have failed on attempts to replicate them. That is the point.

Regardless of how ridiculous you think this is, the shaking between successive dilutions is part of the claim…

Yes it is. And it is a completely ad-hoc and untested claim.

Like the rest of homeopathy.

And who precisely is Chip Denmam or Denham? (which spelling is correct.....)

My apologies – I meant Denman.

Daniel “Chip” Denman is in the University of Maryland's Assistant Director for Research Support in the Office of Information Technology /Academic Support, and also its Interim Director for the Office of Information Technology/User Support Services. His background in biostatistics and epidemiology. He has taught "Science and Pseudoscience" for the University Honors Program. Prior to joining the university, he spent 10 years as a mathematical statistician at the National Institutes of Health. He has done a lot of work in education on the topics of critical thinking and skepticism.

 

[RichardR]

Oh yeah. Our water falls thousands of feet as rain, tumbles down miles of river, is pumped up 35m to the treatment plant, is filtered and disinfected, is pumped to the storage, and finally comes out your tap. But it doesn't get shaken....no certainly not.

Dog, you're missing the point. It gets shaken. But it doesn't get shaken in the special magic way required for homeopathy to work. It needs the special magic shaking. Totally different thing.

This one's no a coincidence at all. Do you know what DIC stands for? Disseminated intravascular coagulation. It's a condition caused by excessive activation of the coagulation pathways. And it's treated with an anticoagulant? Shock!!!

Yes one of the symptoms is hemorrhage but that's due to thrombotic rupture of blood vessels.

Come on now, you're just going to confuse things with with an actual method describing how it works. Steve thinks that kind of thing is irrelevant.

 

[DogB]

Dog, you're missing the point. It gets shaken. But it doesn't get shaken in the special magic way required for homeopathy to work. It needs the special magic shaking. Totally different thing.

Doh!

Forgot the magic shaking.

It all makes sense now.

 

[Yahzi]

I can tell you that if you look at normal tap water hard enough you can find a molecule of any compound you care to name.

I've always wondered... why do homeopaths wash their dishes?

 

[RichardR]

Doh!

Forgot the magic shaking.

It all makes sense now.

Now you're getting it.

 

[RichardR]

I've always wondered... why do homeopaths wash their dishes?

I don't know, but one bottle of dishwashing liquid lasts them forever.

 

[T'ai Chi]

It is that homeopathy is made up.

The origin of a treatment has no bearing at all on its scientific status.

Therefore, what reason do we have to even start looking for evidence to support it.

Uh, because the origin of a treatment has no bearing at all on its scientific status.

Flawed studies displaying some statistical artifact do not count for much in favor of a made up theory.

Every study has flaws because every study can be made better because no study is perfect. I'd say the studies with minimal flaws are worth investigating more.

A "made up theory".. I like that one. Could you show us a theory that is not made up? Oh brother..