Homeopathy is everywhere!

I think T'ai Chi needs a reality check. What TC demands is not within the realms of the real world.

"Dont' worry about perfection. You will never attain it".
Salvador Dali.

Much as we all want it, what TC wants is not attainable. However, amidst the noise and flutter, science will prevail. What TC needs to understand is that real answers take time.

Blame it on MTV, I guess?
 
Re: Re: Compelled to beat the dead horse...

T'ai Chi said:


I agree. However, I think things like "the experiment must be interesting enough to hold the public's attention" is a completely different constraint than "politics" or "budget fights".

To do science, you must publish and make everything available to scrutinize. [/B]

Speaking based on my own experience, in my own field, grant applications get rejected all the time for not being interesting enough, or for researching topics that are considered too obvious. Proposals have to be interesting enough to hold the granting commitees attention, which can often be much more difficult than you think. Particularly if you happen to be a social psychologist (ie we use lots of experiments) and your application is being reviewed by English and Philosophy professors. You get one committee member who doesn't like research using human participants, or who doesn't like the idea of deceiving said subjects about the true purposes of the experiments* and your grant application goes straight down the toilet.

Anyway, my point is, being interesting enought to hold the public's attention is not all that different from being interesting enough to hold a granting committee's attention. 'Science' is very constrained, and I really don't think that TV is any more or less constrained than lab work. My research is severely constrained, for example, because my participant population is almost entirely university undergraduates. I simply don't have the funds available to take a representative sample.

There are also some flaws in the publication process - for example, it's very difficult in my field to publish negative results. Negative results just aren't very interesting. So people can often chase after a theory for years, never getting anywhere, not knowing that someone over at University X also spent years chasing that theory and never getting anywhere. If journals were more willing to publish negative results, maybe we wouldn't have that sort of thing happen. (This may be unique to psychology, I'm not certain).

Finally, I would suggest that nothing is more open to scrutiny than something broadcast on TV! How many people read journals? Not a whole lot. But loads of people watch TV. By 'publishing' on TV, you might actually get really interesting feedback from a much broader audience. And any flaws in your research will probably be mercilessly exposed by people like the ones who post here! :)

*we always debrief our participants about the true purposes of the research after they participate.
 
T'ai Chi: "But we have to keep determining that, scientifically."

TLN: "So, when do we get to stop, to say finally and unequivocally that is doesn't work?"

T'ai Chi: "I, personally don't know."

If you don't know when we should stop, how is it you know we "have to" keep on trying?
 
RichardR said:


If you don't know when we should stop, how is it you know we "have to" keep on trying?

T'ai Chi is a person that opines that in order to state that people don't have superpowers, one must test every person on earth (and possibly any that have ever lived or will live).

This guy is nuts. If a person claims to be able to shoot lasers out of his eyes, T'ai probably thinks it would be a worthwhile and scientific endeavor to fund research into it.
 
RichardR said:
T'ai Chi: "But we have to keep determining that, scientifically."

TLN: "So, when do we get to stop, to say finally and unequivocally that is doesn't work?"

T'ai Chi: "I, personally don't know."

If you don't know when we should stop, how is it you know we "have to" keep on trying?

Of course I don't know when we should stop. -because there is no magic number.
 
Re: Re: Re: Compelled to beat the dead horse...

dissonance said:

..your application is being reviewed by English and Philosophy professors.


Well that might be the problem... What do English and Philosophy professors have to do with science?
 
T'ai Chi said:

1. "the experiment must be interesting enough to hold the public's attention"

2. "the experiment must work on live TV"

3. "the experiment must be comprehensible by a lay audience"

4. "viewers must be able to take part from home and report results over the phone"

5. "the conclusion must be ready before the end of the 30 minute programme."


In other words, no Science. Science has no such artificial constraints.

I take it this is a response to my last post. If so I am bemused. None of these points support your claim that

"Science ain't done on TV, no matter the credentials of the doers and the double blind etc. procedures"

I’ve provided evidence that clearly shows that scientists believe that they are capable of "doing" science on TV.
 
If Billy Bob or Joe Schmo can't understand the science, it isn't allowed. I find that interesting.
 
So what if the Horizon/Randi experiment showed that homeopathy did work?

I bet pro-homeopaths would claim that the experiment was flawless.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Compelled to beat the dead horse...

T'ai Chi said:

Well that might be the problem... What do English and Philosophy professors have to do with science?
The scenario described by Dissonance also occurs in the physical sciences.
 
T'ai Chi said:


Of course I don't know when we should stop. -because there is no magic number.

Actually, there is- in the science of Quality Control, which is used in reality based medicine, if the original test/trial fails, the study must be repeated at least in duplicate. So if the original study was only 40 samples, it must be repeated in 80 at least. Then the overall results from the total of 120 can be compared. If the homeopaths are still not happy, they should repeat this in duplicate to 240 at least and add in all of the data. Etc. etc. until it becomes patently obvious that it is a failure. The main problem is not sample size, but the lack of critical thinking and basic knowledge of biology and chemistry, as homeopathy is a fundamentalist religion, and not a system of medicine founded in reality. Will all christians ever admit creationism/intelligent design/irreducible complexity is complete garbage despite the mountain of evidence against them? No. Will homeopaths ever admit they are total failures? No. But the public can examine the evidence and will decide for themselves, and no one is going to prevent that at this time. The important thing is to keep up the negative publicity around Alternative medicine so people are aware of its shortcommings. People in CAM are always against free speech and opposing views. Carl Sagan said in "The Demon Haunted World" You cannot seperate science and democracy, and this is what alternatives want to deystroy. This is why CAM is so dangerous.
 
T'ai Chi said:
Of course I don't know when we should stop. -because there is no magic number.
If there is no magic number, how do you know we "have to" keep on trying?

If you know we "have to" keep on trying, you must know we haven't reached the point of stopping yet. Which means you must know where that point is.

So which is it: do you know what the point of stopping is, or do you not know we have to keep on trying?
 
RichardR said:
If there is no magic number, how do you know we "have to" keep on trying?


Because there are no rules which dictate when enough is enough.

I guess I don't know for certain if we have to keep on trying. I am suggesting that we keep on trying because there are no general fits all situation stopping rules.
 
T'ai Chi said:


Because there are no rules which dictate when enough is enough.

I guess I don't know for certain if we have to keep on trying. I am suggesting that we keep on trying because there are no general fits all situation stopping rules. [/B]

So we can leave it to the researchers to decide if there's anything about homeopathy worth looking at?
Few seem to think there is.
 

Because there are no rules which dictate when enough is enough.


This is no way means that we HAVE to keep trying to find out if homepathy works. All of the evidence says that it doesn't. All of the science says it doesn't work. Why do we have to keep trying to see if it works if there is NO evidence or science behind the claim that it does work?


I guess I don't know for certain if we have to keep on trying. I am suggesting that we keep on trying because there are no general fits all situation stopping rules.


You want to keep trying because you ignore the fact that there isn't ANY credible evidence that homeopathy works.
 
T'ai Chi said:
If Billy Bob or Joe Schmo can't understand the science, it isn't allowed.

Yep. That's part of our definition of this subset (note that word, subset) of science.

Even in the complete absence of TV, some science meets the criteria listed. Does it stop being science if you film it? Should we not make any science available on popular entertainment just because not all science fits there?

You're just making vaguely negative comments now, but I'd like to know if you still hold your original position. Do you believe that legitimate science is never shown on TV?
 
T'ai Chi said:
Because there are no rules which dictate when enough is enough.

I guess I don't know for certain if we have to keep on trying. I am suggesting that we keep on trying because there are no general fits all situation stopping rules. [/B]
So how will we know when we can stop?
 
Society? How is this done? Do we take a national poll? Global poll?

Come to think of it, this might be a good idea. Add a referendum to the next national ballot: do we spend one more nickel on researching homeopathy or not? Give a synopsis of the "theory" behind it and clinical results to date in layman's terms. Majority rules, either we continue researching homeopathy or it is declared worthless and have FDA ban the practice and "remedies".
 
T'ai Chi said:
It is usually decided by a larger group, such as society.
But in your opinion? You are suggesting that we keep on trying, but for how long? In your opinion.

Or are you saying you don't know if we should keep on trying?
 

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