Homeopathy & critical non-thinking

[aries]

Hello again

I would like to ask you if you know of any (scientific) study that
researches what I suggested in my first post in this thread:

that homeopathy works because it works on a subatomic level

that homeoparthy works because it works/enfolds into one of the dimensions that are suggested by string theory (the nine + the tenth; time)

If not --- would you agree --- that further research into this field
(no pun intended) is necessary..

Blondin -- as i'm danish --- i think i have misused the term --- research here --- (as in my first post) --- i think i would substitute
'reseach' with 'investigation' (because in danish research and investegations means the same )

So...I'm sorry if have used the wrong word --- but i hope this should be OK now

aries

 

[geni]

studies into the effects of homeopathy (yes this list is getting a little overused I will get round to adding more studies top it at some point):

CONCLUSIONS: This study provides no evidence that adjunctive homeopathic remedies, as prescribed by experienced homeopathic practitioners, are superior to placebo in improving the quality of life of children with mild to moderate asthma in addition to conventional treatment in primary care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4&dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSION: Ultramolecular homeopathy had no observable clinical effects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

A double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial of a homeopathic treatment of neonatal calf diarrhoea was performed using 44 calves in 12 dairy herds. Calves with spontaneously derived diarrhoea were treated with either the homeopathic remedy Podophyllum (D30) (n = 24) or a placebo (n = 20). No clinically or statistically significant difference between the 2 groups was demonstrated. Calves treated with Podophyllum had an average of 3.1 days of diarrhoea compared with 2.9 days for the placebo group.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...8&dopt=Abstract

We conclude that this systematic review does not provide clear evidence that the phenomenon of homeopathic aggravations exists.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSION: The effect of homeopathic treatment on mental symptoms of patients with generalized anxiety disorder did not differ from that of placebo. The improvement in both conditions was substantial. Improvement of such magnitude may account for the current belief in the efficacy of homeopathy and the current increase in the use of this practice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...9&dopt=Abstract

Swelling and use of analgesic medication also did not differ between arnica and placebo groups. Adverse events were reported by 2 patients in the arnica 6C group, 3 in the placebo group and 4 in the arnica 30C group. The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4&dopt=Abstract

 

[aries]

Hello again

Blondin

I have taken a quick look at quack watch and i'm glad that i don't live in the US.

I live (fortunately) in Denmark, Europe, where there is very strict lawas against quackery. No one, who is not a licensed doctor, in Denmark must tell their patients what is wrong with them in a diagnosis kind of way; no one who is not a licensed doctor must take sick into care and promise them they can heal or improve
fatal/lethal sickness/diseases.

And i also think that the alternative medicine bracnch in Denmark, is very glad about this law. This prevent them from promising people that they (as alternative medicines professions) can or will heal seriously ill people...

Generally the poeople who work in alternative medicine over here in Denmark are much more downplayed --- and do not promise their clients that if they just take this pill/vial/liquid, they will be healed of any and all symptoms,diseases and sicknesses that they have. (maybe because the danes simply do not believe in such nonsense... that there is one pill etc. that cures ev'rything)

At this point i would like to tell you all little story...

A drug/stuff called EDTA is forbidden in Denmark --- because is apparently do not work --- i was just showing a showing of 'strong medicine' ( a doctor tv show i sometime see and we can receive over here on one of our danish tv channels). And much to my surprise, the doctor asked that EDTA be used.
and i wonderes why she did that --- did not she know that the Danish Board of Health have forbidden it --- until i realized that this was an american tv show --- not a danish one .

Later, i learned that the Danish heart/vascular surgeons have gotten much money from the danish medicine industry so that they could prove that EDTA do not work.

And here is where I get confused. If it, apparently works, in USA, why did it work in Denmark ?

I reallly do not know...

aries

 

[geni]

that homeoparthy works because it works/enfolds into one of the dimensions that are suggested by string theory (the nine + the tenth; time)

Plese show us the maths. Othewise stop trying to do quantum theory on the hoof.

If not --- would you agree --- that further research into this field
(no pun intended) is necessary..

Since string theory remains unproven that could be tricky. There is also the factor that you would probably need a particle accelorater with a length in excess of the earths cercumfrance. Unless you can a show that there is an effect and that there is a soild set of maths showing that it could involve string thoery there is no point in spending the entire GDP of the earth several time over looking for something that the evidence say does not exist.

 

[aries]

Hello again

geni...

first

1) arnica isn't a homeopathic remedy (it is an extract from a plant)

2) It does not surprise that no effects were found using homeopathic remedies on children with mild to moderate asthma.
(probably anything you would have done would have worked just as well as the placebo (which in Denmark at least is a chalk tablet/pill)

3)
and as for the rest of the investigations/research i have no comment.

First, i think we all should agree that if you are to use homeopathic remedies, it should be the correct ones.

And the only place I know that it making these remedies is 'factory' in Germany.

And the experienced homeopathic practitioners must have a formal education either as an 'heilpraktiker' or as as classical homeopath (a title that at least in Denmark is protected by copyrigth laws)

At least, this is how i see it.

aries

 

[aries]

Hello

As i'm not a mathemacian nor a biochemist; i really can't do the math

What i'm intending is to take a little 'vision trip' and ask

what if...questions:

what if...

homeopathy works... because of (what i've 'told' in my earlier post in this thread)

So it is just more an imaginatory exploratory drill/practise rather than a math exercise than i'm attempting here..

(just to let yoy think: what if....this could be so...and what if...this works so...and as far as i understand this is how (natural)
science works...)

aries

 

[geni]

Hello again

geni...

first

1) arnica isn't a homeopathic remedy (it is an extract from a plant)
Anica at a number of potencies is a very common remedy.

2) It does not surprise that no effects were found using homeopathic remedies on children with mild to moderate asthma.
(probably anything you would have done would have worked just as well as the placebo (which in Denmark at least is a chalk tablet/pill)

Homeopaths claim to be able to cure asthma.


First, i think we all should agree that if you are to use homeopathic remedies, it should be the correct ones.

And the only place I know that it making these remedies is 'factory' in Germany.

Helios are big in the uk biron are big in france and there are no shortage of other around

And the experienced homeopathic practitioners must have a formal education either as an 'heilpraktiker' or as as classical homeopath (a title that at least in Denmark is protected by copyrigth laws)

They still can't show that they can do what they claim.

 

[geni]

homeopathy works... because of (what i've 'told' in my earlier post in this thread)


Homeopathy doesn't work because:
1 the evidence does not support the hypososis that it works

2 it breaks some fairly fundimental laws of physics and chemistry.

So it is just more an imaginatory exploratory drill/practise rather than a math exercise than i'm attempting here..

If you want to get involved with quantum theory maths is everything.

 

[Rolfe]

See my description of Randi's dowsing test, described above.

We were talking about homoeopathy. See thread title. Don't you want to talk about homoeopathy any more?

Whatever is being tested, Randi isn't going to agree to a test which isn't properly blinded or otherwise allows scope for cheating. So if an applicant won't agree to a test which is cheat-proof, then he won't be tested, very true.

Rolfe.

 

[geni]

Do you have a specific example of Randi conducting a test for finding natural water underground? I don't remember seeing any.

You wre not refuring to this you statemnt was:

Originally posted by Peter Morris
So, there we have it. If someone claims they can find water, Randi challenges them to "find a dry spot." That is the only test Randi is willing to give, and it makes no sense at all.

Do you wish to withdraw this statement?

 

[Rolfe]

(just to let yoy think: what if....this could be so...and what if...this works so...and as far as i understand this is how (natural)
science works...)

Why do all the homoeopaths who come here sound like this? It's like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. Hey, you're not Xanta again, are you?

Just to let you think.... what if.... this could be so.... if.... the moon was made of.... green cheese?

There's no point at all dreaming up speculative fantasies to explain something which doesn't seem to happen in the first place.

Lots of people are absolutely convinced that homoeopathy cured them, because they got better after taking a homoeopathic remedy. News flash. People get better all the time, whether they take anything or don't.

The question is, do a group of people who got their homoeopathic remedy have, on average, a better chance of getting better than a similar group of people who only thought they got the remedy?

Answer, from those papers Geni posted, and some more where these came from, is no.

Then again, for all your fancy speculations (and I would caution, if you really don't know anything about physics, or chemistry, or biochemistry, it's unwise to come here and pontificate, because some people here know rather a lot about these subjects), can homoeopaths distinguish a homoeopathic remedy from the stock solvent (or blank sugar pills)? Any way at all?

Answer, no.

Science has more interesting things to do than speculate about things that simply don't happen.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

A drug/stuff called EDTA is forbidden in Denmark --- because is apparently do not work --- i was just showing a showing of 'strong medicine' ( a doctor tv show i sometime see and we can receive over here on one of our danish tv channels). And much to my surprise, the doctor asked that EDTA be used.
and i wonderes why she did that --- did not she know that the Danish Board of Health have forbidden it --- until i realized that this was an american tv show --- not a danish one .

Later, i learned that the Danish heart/vascular surgeons have gotten much money from the danish medicine industry so that they could prove that EDTA do not work.

And here is where I get confused. If it, apparently works, in USA, why did it work in Denmark ?

OK, let's try this one.

EDTA (marketed as "Sequestrene") is the absolutely specific and essential treatment for poisoning by lead and other toxic heavy metals. I find it quite inconceivable that it is banned for this purpose in Denmark or anywhere else.

However, it is banned in some countries for use by "alternative" healers and in patients who do not have a confirmed diagnosis of heavy metal poisoning. The reason is that alternative practitioners had taken to using it as a non-specific "detoxification" treatment for people who didn't need it. EDTA is heap powerful medicine, and it has potentially serious side-effects - including removing essential minerals from the body. The quack use of it as "detox" harmed a number of people, hence the ban.

Aries, I think you have heard about EDTA being banned for "detoxification" use in Denmark, but then watched a TV programme involving a case of lead poisoning, for which EDTA is not only not banned, it is essential.

Now, since this thread is about homoeopathy, how about sticking to the subject? Remarking that there may be some validity to things which are connected to other types of alternative medicine is the last resort of the homoeopath who has run out of arguments.

Rolfe.

 

[aries]

HI

It is entirely possible that homeopaths (in other countries than denamrk) claim to be able to cureasthma...(but none if the danish heilpraktikers/homeopaths I have been in contact with have never ever claimed to be able to cure anything by the use of homeopatic remedis alone...)

We, in the consulatation also talk abot my life en geneal and wabout what food I eat and other stuff

And also...

I*m do not know 'nothing' about /natural)science

I have a college degree as well as university post graduate degreee...

My mother was a trained nurse; and my father (who himself was interested in physics and chemistry his whole life got me interested in chemistry, physics and the like; an interest I myself have taken up; so i have read and watch many books/tv-shows about (natural) science.

So, yes I do belive that i'm fairly well versed in the different theories of i.f. quantum physics (but i am always willing to learn more) Unfortunately; my mind is that good as the abstract thinking that maths (on higher levels requires) --- so my path (unfortunately) did not become one of (naturaL science --- it became one of --- well --- I have a Masters in Danish and BA in Social Studies..(so i'm well versed in 'scientific' methods in these areas.

I also know enough about the scientific method being used in the (natural/medical) sciences to see that it is a cause and effect method. (that, at least to me, seems, very rigid and stern)

I also know enough about the scientific method to know that if you are to test something you are meant to make a test to make
one's hypothesis/theory: 'falsifiable' (as pr. Karl Popper)

And to finish:

I think/believe that a (natural) scientific method is fine when you are working with i.e. equations, electrons and so on. I, however, do not peoplem that the strict, rigid, and stern (natural) scientific methods/principles can be used/applied where human beings are involved (as I also happens to think/believe that human's minds sometimes are salient and necessary in order to heal themselves pr. the body's self healing mechanism)

And as I see it, homeopathic remedies go ind and support the body's self-healing proces...in the individual person who has the disease/sickness --- homeopathic remedies do not heal or cure any illness/disease/sickness. It merely helps the body's own self regenerative power to be able to function better...(sorry --- this is not exactly what i wanted to say --- (in english) --- but I hope you can make sense out it --- )

aries

 

[Psiload]

aries wrote:

And as I see it, homeopathic remedies go ind and support the body's self-healing proces...in the individual person who has the disease/sickness ---

This is your opinion. Well designed, properly conducted studies of homeopathy do not support this as fact... quite the opposite.

homeopathic remedies do not heal or cure any illness/disease/sickness. It merely helps the body's own self regenerative power to be able to function better...(

Once again, this is your opinion, and according to the best evidence available to date, your opinion is mistaken.

However... I would agree with you in the sense that homeopathic remedies are usefull as placebos. On the other hand... placebo is basically a synonym for 'lie', and in my opinion, it is unethical to lie to someone concerning medical treatment. It goes against the principle of 'informed consent'... a central tenant of modern medicine.

 

[Rolfe]

It is entirely possible that homeopaths (in other countries than denamrk) claim to be able to cureasthma...(but none if the danish heilpraktikers/homeopaths I have been in contact with have never ever claimed to be able to cure anything by the use of homeopatic remedis alone....

I understand that alternative medicine is very heavily regulated in Denmark, and in particular unproven medicinal claims are forbidden by law. As a result homoeopaths have to abandon much of their usual way of practising, because that consists almost entirely of making unproven medical claims. Almost everywhere else, they claim that the only way to cure anything at all is by homoeopathic remedies alone! And asthma is one of their favourites, because it is a condition which fluctuates, and so it is easy to pretend to the patient that an improvement has occurred.

I also know enough about the scientific method to know that if you are to test something you are meant to make a test to make one's hypothesis/theory: 'falsifiable' (as pr. Karl Popper)

Here, I agree with you completely. But this is exactly what homoeopaths WILL NOT DO. It is impossible to get any of them to agree to a falsifiable test. No matter the test, and no matter the outcome, it is always interpreted with the basic assumption that homoeopathy works.

For example, if the patient got better, then that proves it works (never mind if the patients who got the placebo also got better). If the patient got worse, that is an "aggravation" (or maybe a "proving"), and proves that the remedy is going to work. And if nothing happened, then you didn't get the right simillimum, try something else (until one of the above happens).

Or if you try a proving on a healthy person, and nothing happens, then that's because you accidentally antidoted the remedy, or you took the wrong dose, or even, as a last resort "homoeopathy doesn't work for everyone".

If you can get a homoeopath to agree to a falsifiable test, you'll be doing better than all the rest of us combined.

And as I see it, homeopathic remedies go ind and support the body's self-healing proces...in the individual person who has the disease/sickness --- homeopathic remedies do not heal or cure any illness/disease/sickness. It merely helps the body's own self regenerative power to be able to function better...(sorry --- this is not exactly what i wanted to say --- (in english) --- but I hope you can make sense out it ---

As you see it.... You mean, as you've been told. That's what the homoeopaths say, There isn't a shred of scientific evidence for a single word of it.

In fact, that statement is to a large extent true of real medicine. No wound ever healed, and no sickness ever got better, on a corpse. Real medicine mostly consists of figuring out what is stopping the body from healing itself, and then trying to correct that. But homoeopathy just delivers soothing words and sugar pills, then takes the credit for whatever was going to happen anyway.

Rolfe.

 

[geni]

HI

It is entirely possible that homeopaths (in other countries than denamrk) claim to be able to cureasthma...(but none if the danish heilpraktikers/homeopaths I have been in contact with have never ever claimed to be able to cure anything by the use of homeopatic remedis alone...)

If you can't cure anyone whats the point?

We, in the consulatation also talk abot my life en geneal and wabout what food I eat and other stuff

Sonds more like "holistic healing" than homeopathy to me.


My mother was a trained nurse; and my father (who himself was interested in physics and chemistry his whole life got me interested in chemistry, physics and the like; an interest I myself have taken up; so i have read and watch many books/tv-shows about (natural) science.

Tv shows are not a good way to learn about science. Quantum physics is one of the worst in that the progams will make you think you have a vage grasp of the subject when in reality you don't (simple example very few will even tell you about E=hv)

So, yes I do belive that i'm fairly well versed in the different theories of i.f. quantum physics (but i am always willing to learn more)

If I gave you a high detail IR spectrograph of HCl would you be able to calculate the bond length from it?

Unfortunately; my mind is that good as the abstract thinking that maths (on higher levels requires) --- so my path (unfortunately) did not become one of (naturaL science --- it became one of --- well --- I have a Masters in Danish and BA in Social Studies..(so i'm well versed in 'scientific' methods in these areas.

So are you a funtionerlist an interactionist a marixist or do you subscribe to one of the other thoeries?

I also know enough about the scientific method being used in the (natural/medical) sciences to see that it is a cause and effect method. (that, at least to me, seems, very rigid and stern)

The methods behind the mains sciences seem to work

I also know enough about the scientific method to know that if you are to test something you are meant to make a test to make
one's hypothesis/theory: 'falsifiable' (as pr. Karl Popper)

And to finish:

I think/believe that a (natural) scientific method is fine when you are working with i.e. equations, electrons and so on. I, however, do not peoplem that the strict, rigid, and stern (natural) scientific methods/principles can be used/applied where human beings are involved (as I also happens to think/believe that human's minds sometimes are salient and necessary in order to heal themselves pr. the body's self healing mechanism)

I know that they can be. The first law of theromodynamics for a start there are plenty of others

And as I see it, homeopathic remedies go ind and support the body's self-healing proces...in the individual person who has the disease/sickness --- homeopathic remedies do not heal or cure any illness/disease/sickness. It merely helps the body's own self regenerative power to be able to function better...(sorry --- this is not exactly what i wanted to say --- (in english) --- but I hope you can make sense out it --- )

Now have you got any evidence to suport this idea? Preferble of equal or better quality than the stuff I produced.

 

[aries]

Hello

As I have stated once:

I'm not a mathematician...

and i do not know what you mean by interactionist, functionalist ot marxist ??? I am just ME ---

However, I do believe that people have certain models of the world in their minds which schemes/patterns they then interpret the word from/with...(maybe i'm a constructionist or whatever it is called when people believe/think that we all make our own reality and act according to it...)

As for the EDTA --- it is banned from use in the whole healt section in Denmark, not just in the alternative medicine branch ---
even if this form medicibe EDTA did provided interesting promisses..in treatment for what you called poisoning...

As for me being told what to believe about the way homeopathy might work. Nobody told me that --- I actuallu figured that one out by myself.. --- and no as I'm not researcher/investigator nor an homeopath, but just ME, I do not have any proof/evidence to support this theory/hypothesis.

And yes, as my homeopath is an educated 'heilpraktiker' (who took her exams in German supervised by a doctor) it added a
holistic medicine/healing approach as well.

As for the tv - shows --- they were more like high quality broadcast about advancement and theories in/of science being aried on the Danish National TV-channel..(which by the way, is free of pesky commercials)

As for the homeopaths claiming that homeopathy alone will cure almost anything --- I do not think that the DANES really would believe this --- even if they (the homeopaths were allowed to say this)

I think the whole problem may come down to different worldviews/models of the world...

In the (natural) sciences you/we want to test reality, (whatever that is), have stable identífiable outcomes that can be replicated by other scientists; hence the meticulous kept records/journals.

The alternative medicine, from homeopathy to acupuncture, in general, takes a different stand: It claims to be holisitc taken into account the whole life situation of the patient and treating this (yes and also sometimes alternative medicine also talks about how people could change attitude towards a certain problem and maybe then feel better --- this i guess is what is known as 'the placebo (or psychological effect)

(again: this not exaxtly what i would like to convey to you /inform you about -- but I hope you get the central part of my opinion )

But i believe that if a person is going to feel better --- be able to be cured/healed --- that there has to bee a psychological awareness/readiness in the person's mind and body to accept that the treatment will work --- or else it will fail.

And yes, of course the last paragraph(s), in my latest posts(not this one ) is an expression of my opinion/belief on the matter.
(i really thought this was the meaning of this forum; that we in freedom and respect could discuss certain aspects and opinions on i.e. homeopathy/alternative medicine ???)

I told the story (about EDTA)as an anecdote, a little amusing thing for you to think about... not because i'm a homeopath in trouble...

I really don't know why the homeopaths will not be tested as to partake test that would/could falsify 'homeopathy'. I also, at this time, have NO idea as to which conditions the test should be taken under --- or what kind of scientific protocols rules that should be applied.

And again:

I do believe that the person take any drug/medicine, be it alternative or conventional, in his/her mind, must have made a decision that this medicine will help him...(get better)

And as I see what you call a placebo (nothing) effect can/is to be attributed to this psychological effect. (if e.g. an person is undergoing surgery in a few days, the patient will fare better, if the doctor says to him/her: Relax, you are going to make it than if the doctor do not make this remark. (and no i do not any studies that documents this, but i do now that the former leading heart surgeon, a swede, often observed this to true/to be the case

And frankly I get tired of this discussion --- as I see we have a different understanding of what disease/sickness and healing is.

(as i have tried to describe above)

aries

 

[dann]

(...) What i'm intending is to take a little 'vision trip' and ask what if...questions:
what if...
homeopathy works... because of (what i've 'told' in my earlier post in this thread)
(...)
(just to let yoy think: what if....this could be so...and what if...this works so...and as far as i understand this is how (natural)
science works...)

What if ... you're completely wrong, aries? What if homeopathy does not work, what if people who take homeopathic medicine get better for other reasons, but attribute their healing to homeopathy because they swallowed homeopathic medicine for this purpose?
Then you do not actually have to spend a lot of thoughts on quantum physics (which neither you nor I have any real understanding of), nor do you have to worry about your insufficient knowledge of math, because you do not have a phenomenon that needs to be explained.
First establish as a fact that you actually do have a beneficial effect from homeopathic medicine on people's health, an effect not attributable to the placebo effect. Then start worrying about the causes of that effect ....

What gives fairies the ability to fly? What if this ability could be attributed to quantum mechanics, aries? Ask the next flying fairy you meet. Or catch one and dissect it ....

 

[geni]

Hello

As I have stated once:

I'm not a mathematician...

Ok an easy one. What is he energy of a photon with a frequency of 10Hz? Pure arithmatic.



As for the EDTA --- it is banned from use in the whole healt section in Denmark, not just in the alternative medicine branch ---
even if this form medicibe EDTA did provided interesting promisses..in treatment for what you called poisoning...

Are you sure about this do you have a referance? I've worked with EDTA and while it's not nice (if you read it's health and safty listing you will wounder why on earth people would want to inject this into themselves) I cant see anyone banning it for legitimate medical use.

As for me being told what to believe about the way homeopathy might work. Nobody told me that --- I actuallu figured that one out by myself.. --- and no as I'm not researcher/investigator nor an homeopath, but just ME, I do not have any proof/evidence to support this theory/hypothesis.

On the basis that there is no way you can understand string thoer without a lot of maths (much harder than the stuff I've been asking about) I'm afariad I must question the value of your figuring out. This forum does contain some physicists (I am not one of them) so if you want to discuss some asspects of quantum theory perhaps you could start a thread on it.


As for the tv - shows --- they were more like high quality broadcast about advancement and theories in/of science being aried on the Danish National TV-channel..(which by the way, is free of pesky commercials)

We have something simular on the bbc. However to even begin to understand quantum physics you would need a degree at the least. Unfortunely the whole theory is so complex that below that level you are wasteing your mental rescources.

As for the homeopaths claiming that homeopathy alone will cure almost anything --- I do not think that the DANES really would believe this --- even if they (the homeopaths were allowed to say this)

Then I know of a large number of homeopaths who would npot regard them as true homeopaths. The founder of homeopathy held the view that it could cure as has every major homeopath since.


The alternative medicine, from homeopathy to acupuncture, in general, takes a different stand: It claims to be holisitc taken into account the whole life situation of the patient and treating this (yes and also sometimes alternative medicine also talks about how people could change attitude towards a certain problem and maybe then feel better --- this i guess is what is known as 'the placebo (or psychological effect)

They are claiming non random real word effects. This can and has been tested.

But i believe that if a person is going to feel better --- be able to be cured/healed --- that there has to bee a psychological awareness/readiness in the person's mind and body to accept that the treatment will work --- or else it will fail.

Nope that the thing with real medcine you don't have to belive in it. Of course it will give better results if you do.


I really don't know why the homeopaths will not be tested as to partake test that would/could falsify 'homeopathy'. I also, at this time, have NO idea as to which conditions the test should be taken under --- or what kind of scientific protocols rules that should be applied.

Well at the most simple we give a group of homeopaths 20 vials. 10 containing a remedy and 10 contianing the stock solvent and see if they can tell them apart.

 

[aries]

Hello again

I think i am withdrawaing from this forum ---

i have better thing to do than tp spent my time here

aries

(and by the way: I'm not a physicist either)

I have tried to explain to you what I believe in and how I have believe that homeopathy works...

and all you have come up with the typical answers

double blind random controlled testing...

and again to emphasize:

I do no believe that you need to believe that what you call real medicine will help --- or the effect will near to null (but that is a debate regarding different ways og how we see and organize our worldviews --- and such a debate, I sadly, do not have time to partake in, right now.

Therefore farewell (for now

aries