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Homeopathy & critical non-thinking

Joined
May 12, 2003
Messages
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In [url = http://www.randi.org/jr/020604monk.html#7]his lastest commentry[/url] Randi comments on a failed test for homeopathy.

Well, I'm no believer in homeopathy, but I do believe in giving extraordinary claims a fair test. With just a little bit of logical thought, it is obvious that the test described was grotesqely unfair, so poorly designed that homeopathy would fail the test whether it worked or not.

Here's the problem: they ignore one of the fundamental principles of homeopathy, namely the claim that like cures like. So, if homeopathy is true, a dilution of snake venom would be an antidote to a smakebite.

Another flaw in the logic - Randi himself has often claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed, its only dangerous when injected into the blood directly through a bite. So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely.

I repeat that this is not an endorsement of homeopathy. I see supporters spouting pseudoscientific babble to support their belief, and opponents spouting equally dodgy pseudoscientific claptrap to discredit it. I see no difference between them. The one is as bad as the other, IMHO.

Randi claims to be a critical thnker. Not so at all. He's highly critical, but not at all skilled at thinking. He'll believe anything you tell him, as long as you are speaking against the paranormal.
 
Peter Morris said:
Here's the problem: they ignore one of the fundamental principles of homeopathy, namely the claim that like cures like. So, if homeopathy is true, a dilution of snake venom would be an antidote to a smakebite.


You are failing to include that concept of prvoing in your statement. Also what you are describing is isopathy not homeopathy (a sutle difference that homeopaths will tend to pull out as a last resort).
There are legit homeopathic reasons this wont work (provings have to be done over a peroid of time, some indivduals don't prove etc...) but the ones that are being used as an excuss here are not very good.

As for psudoscience how about this lot:

CONCLUSIONS: This study provides no evidence that adjunctive homeopathic remedies, as prescribed by experienced homeopathic practitioners, are superior to placebo in improving the quality of life of children with mild to moderate asthma in addition to conventional treatment in primary care.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4&dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSION: Ultramolecular homeopathy had no observable clinical effects

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

A double-blind, placebo-controlled clinical trial of a homeopathic treatment of neonatal calf diarrhoea was performed using 44 calves in 12 dairy herds. Calves with spontaneously derived diarrhoea were treated with either the homeopathic remedy Podophyllum (D30) (n = 24) or a placebo (n = 20). No clinically or statistically significant difference between the 2 groups was demonstrated. Calves treated with Podophyllum had an average of 3.1 days of diarrhoea compared with 2.9 days for the placebo group.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...8&dopt=Abstract

We conclude that this systematic review does not provide clear evidence that the phenomenon of homeopathic aggravations exists.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSION: The effect of homeopathic treatment on mental symptoms of patients with generalized anxiety disorder did not differ from that of placebo. The improvement in both conditions was substantial. Improvement of such magnitude may account for the current belief in the efficacy of homeopathy and the current increase in the use of this practice.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...9&dopt=Abstract

Swelling and use of analgesic medication also did not differ between arnica and placebo groups. Adverse events were reported by 2 patients in the arnica 6C group, 3 in the placebo group and 4 in the arnica 30C group. The results of this trial do not suggest that homeopathic arnica has an advantage over placebo in reducing postoperative pain, bruising and swelling in patients undergoing elective hand surgery.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...4&dopt=Abstract

See plent of real science
 
Peter Morris said:
Another flaw in the logic - Randi himself has often claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed, its only dangerous when injected into the blood directly through a bite. So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely.

"Often"?

I could only find one reference, and Randi is far from categoric:

"That fellow Kirti Betai, who claims I refused to test him, obviously has science at his fingertips. I looked him up in our files, and found that we'd refused his application because he wanted to do a thing involving eating food poisoned with snake venom. Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous, and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth, we declined the idea on ethical grounds."
Source

"isn't necessarily dangerous". Those were the words.

Perhaps you could show exactly where Randi "often" has claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed?
 
geni said:
You are failing to include that concept of prvoing in your statement.
I don't understand what you mean by that, please explain.
Also what you are describing is isopathy not homeopathy (a sutle difference that homeopaths will tend to pull out as a last resort).
You might be right, I don't know a lot about homeopathy, and I've never heard of isopathy before. However, term 'homeopathy' is derived from two Greek words: homeo (similar) and pathos (suffering).

There are legit homeopathic reasons this wont work (provings have to be done over a peroid of time, some indivduals don't prove etc...) but the ones that are being used as an excuss here are not very good.
Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

As for psudoscience how about this lot:
Once again, let me point out that I am not supporting homeopathy, I am just pointing out the flaws in one particular test. You can show me a thousand other tests, it won't change the flaws in this particular test. The only thing demonstrated by that test is Randi's lack of critical thinking ability.

CFLarse said:
Perhaps you could show exactly where Randi "often" has claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed?
Here's a couple of other articles where Randi comments on snake handlers, snake venom and swallowing poison.
http://www.randi.org/jr/040502.html
http://www.randi.org/jr/042602.html

I'm sure I've seen a few similar comments from him on other occasions

Would you settle for 'several times' instead of 'often?'
 
Peter Morris said:
Here's a couple of other articles where Randi comments on snake handlers, snake venom and swallowing poison.
http://www.randi.org/jr/040502.html

This deals with a Peter Himmelreich, who tells of drinking rat poison. Randi says nothing about snake poison not being poisonous when swallowed.

Peter Morris said:

This deals with a Tanith Tyrr, who tells of snake bites. Randi says nothing about snake poison not being poisonous when swallowed.

Peter Morris said:
I'm sure I've seen a few similar comments from him on other occasions

I'm sure you're sure. However, that does not constitue proof.

Peter Morris said:
Would you settle for 'several times' instead of 'often?'

No. So far, I have not seen just one single example. The one example where Randi does speak of ingesting snake poison, he says very clearly that "ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous".

That's a far cry from your claim - that "Randi himself has often claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed".

Would you agree that you claim is, so far, entirely unfounded?
 
Peter Morris said:
I don't understand what you mean by that, please explain.

One of the central theories of homeopathy is like cures like. In order to use this you need to find out what symptoms are produced in a healthy person by the stuff you are going to use. So what homeopaths do is get a small (8 or less is typical) group of people to take the remedy see what symptoms are being produced and then claim the remedy can cure thoes symptoms. In short a remedy that can cure something will produce the symptoms of the thing being cured if given to a healthy person or so homeopaths claim (studies show otherwise)


You might be right, I don't know a lot about homeopathy, and I've never heard of isopathy before. However, term 'homeopathy' is derived from two Greek words: homeo (similar) and pathos (suffering).


The simplest way of thinking about this is that homeopathy is like cures like while isopathy is same cures same. Isopathy would involve making up a remedy from the thing that caused the illness. Homeopathy involves giving a remedy that is made up from something else that homeopaths thinks cause the same symptoms as the illness.

Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

A single does will have no effect on most people acording to homeopathic principles. It is multiple does over a length of time that will have an effect.


Once again, let me point out that I am not supporting homeopathy, I am just pointing out the flaws in one particular test. You can show me a thousand other tests, it won't change the flaws in this particular test. The only thing demonstrated by that test is Randi's lack of critical thinking ability.


The test was legit as far as it goes. It just doesn't go very far. Also the homeopath doesn't know his homeopathy. PRoving does not need to be indivdualy taliored.
[/B]
 
CFLarsen said:

Would you agree that you claim is, so far, entirely unfounded?

No, of course not.

In links posted already, we've seen :
Randi commenting DIRECTLY that one may safely drink snake venom.
Another comment about handling snakes, and drinking other types of poison.
another comment about how even direct snake bites may not be lethal.

All of them back up my original comment, that "So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely"

If I quoted a hundred examples of such, you would still deny it. You are just desperately grabbing at straws, making trivial objections because you can't stand criticism of your hero.

How about this, then:

"Randi has commented on at least three occasions that you can drink snake venom or other poisons safely, and even being bitten by a snake isn't nearly as dangerous as many people think."

Satisfied?
 
Peter Morris said:
No, of course not.

In links posted already, we've seen :
Randi commenting DIRECTLY that one may safely drink snake venom.

He does no such thing. He says "Since ingesting this (snake venom) substance isn't necessarily dangerous". He even went on to say that "and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth".

Peter Morris said:
Another comment about handling snakes, and drinking other types of poison.

But not snake poison.

Peter Morris said:
another comment about how even direct snake bites may not be lethal.

But not about drinking snake poison.

Peter Morris said:
All of them back up my original comment, that "So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely"

No, your original comment was about snake poison:

Peter Morris said:
Another flaw in the logic - Randi himself has often claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed, its only dangerous when injected into the blood directly through a bite. So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely.

You have not been able to show where Randi has claimed this just once.

Peter Morris said:
If I quoted a hundred examples of such, you would still deny it. You are just desperately grabbing at straws, making trivial objections because you can't stand criticism of your hero.

First, Randi is not my "hero". Second, I have yet to see you quote just one example.

Peter Morris said:
How about this, then:

"Randi has commented on at least three occasions that you can drink snake venom or other poisons safely, and even being bitten by a snake isn't nearly as dangerous as many people think."

No, not "safely".

Peter Morris said:
Satisfied?

It's not a question about me being satisfied, it's a question of you providing evidence of your claims. So far, you have been entirely unsuccessful.
 
geni said:
One of the central theories of homeopathy is like cures like. In order to use this you need to find out what symptoms are produced in a healthy person by the stuff you are going to use. So what homeopaths do is get a small (8 or less is typical) group of people to take the remedy see what symptoms are being produced and then claim the remedy can cure thoes symptoms. In short a remedy that can cure something will produce the symptoms of the thing being cured if given to a healthy person or so homeopaths claim (studies show otherwise) ... The simplest way of thinking about this is that homeopathy is like cures like while isopathy is same cures same. Isopathy would involve making up a remedy from the thing that caused the illness. Homeopathy involves giving a remedy that is made up from something else that homeopaths thinks cause the same symptoms as the illness.

So you mean that instead of saying: "So, if homeopathy is true, a dilution of snake venom would be an antidote to a smakebite " I should have said "A dilution of snake venom would treat diseases with symptoms similar to those caused by a snake bite" Is that right?

Thank you for clarifying that point.
 
What is needed is for the homoeopaths themselves to come up with a test they agree is valid. Strangely, they never do.

Randi has made it very simple, and he repeated this in the latest commentary:
Simply show us that you are able to differentiate between homeopathic and non-homeopathic preparations, by any means, and you win the million-dollar prize. By "any means," we mean chemical (qualitative or quantitative analysis), biological (in vivo or in vitro), physical (polarization, spectroanalysis, microanalysis), or metaphysical (Tarot cards, intuition, vibrations, auras, Kirlian, I Ching, guessing, spirit communication), or any other means.
By "non-homeopathic" I presume he means the stock solvent - the chemically identical material which just hasn't had the dilute-and-shake mojo applied.

This actually leaves the door wide open for any design the homoeopath likes. (I'm surprised nobody mentioned dowsing, because some homoeopaths skip the tedious symptom-matching bit and dowse for the right remedy, and they claim that works just as well. I'm sure it does! :D )

The problem is that homoeopaths have over the years developed a sufficiently sophisticated "theory" that no matter what happens it can be accommodated within their belief system. This is easily seen in their approach to their "patients". Patient improves, great, homoeopathy triumphs again. Patient deteriorates, well, this was expected because homoeopathic aggravations are often a feature of the treatment and this shows that the remedy is doing something. Patient stays the same, must not have got the right remedy, start again, repeat until some change occurs (as it always does). Long-term failure is usually attributed either to the patient presenting too late, or to irreversible screwing up of the system by any "allopathic" medication tha patient may have taken, going right back to childhood vaccinations if nothing else can be found.

All the in vitro experiments are a waste of time, because every time an alleged effect turns out to be irreproducible (like Benveniste), it's, well, we didn't say that's how homooepathy works, we don't know how it works, must be some other way then.

The "provings", as Geni said, seem to provide the most fruitful avenue for investigation. These are the symptoms supposed to be caused by the magic water in healthy people. Many homoeopaths claim that they are so unmistakable that even a sceptic will be forced to admit there's something going on if they undertake a "proving", in fact many of them claim to be able to make even sceptics ill using the remedies. (Funny, these are the remedies that are so safe they don't need to be regulated in any way....)

However, if a sceptic takes them up on this, and then reports no effect, the backpedalling starts immediately - ask MRC_Hans, he's the one who tried it. Many excuses were offered, but the possibility that the whole thing was a pile of nothing couldn't even be considered as an explanation.

How can Randi possibly agree to a test which essentially states that someone takes a remedy, and anything that then happens is consistent with the theory that homoeopathy works?

So, it has to be up to the homoeopaths. Distinguish between remedy and solvent blank, any way at all. Seems to me that there are two areas where they must be able to do it, 'cos if they can't then their fundamental assertions have been disproved.

Treating patients. Get a bunch of patients with roughly comparable clinical complaints. Get the homoeopaths to agree that homoeopathy should be able to "cure" this problem. Send all the patients to the homoeopaths to be individualised and prescribed any way they like. Then make sure that only half get the prescribed magic water (or magic sugar pills), the other half get the blanks. Monitor the patients very closely, using as many objective tests as possible, and see if there is an obvious differnce between the groups. This has been done once. Guess what, the homoeopaths (who had originally agreed that the test was valid), picked it to pieces as very poorly designed and proving nothing.

However, it's highly doubtful that a test like this could ever be arranged in such a way as to satisfy the requirements for the JREF prize. The other approach, the "provings", certainly could though.

The obvious design is to give a homoeopath claimant 20 or 30 batches of a remedy of his or her choosing, half of which are the real deal and the other half are shams. All he has to do is sort them out. This ought to be possible by taking the preparations himself and seeing whether or not the characteristic proving symptoms happen. Remember, these provings are the absolute bedrock of homoeopathic theory, the basis for selection of the remedies for patients, and if they're not real, the whole edifice falls apart.

Nobody has ever come forward to do this, though one of the participants in the Homeopathy Home forum did say recently that she'd like to try it. The main excuse (expressed as a serious concern by the possible claimant) is that "proving" a remedy makes you ill, and doing this ten or 15 times is too much to ask, even for a million dollars. Funny, when you read the accounts of actual provings, nobody seems particularly worried about getting ill - most of the "symptoms" are apparently normal everyday occurrences or psychological things (can you spell "psychosomatic"?) The second excuse is that trying to prove the same remedy again and again will only confuse the system, and it will become impossible to tell what is what before enough repetitions have been done to satisfy the statistical requirements for the prize.

You could cut down the number of real provings by decreasing the proportion of real remedies in the mix, but this would be at the expense of markedly increasing the total number of tests to be done (a lot more blanks). It gets a bit impractical after a while.

So, a friend of mine came up with a better idea. You get 20 or 30 homoeopaths, each of whom is confident that he can prove a remedy of his choice. You give them exactly what they say they can prove - half of them get the real deal, the other half get a chemically identical sham.

I can't see anything wrong with this idea. It seems to answer all the homoeopaths' objections. The only wrinkle is that presumably the prize would have to be split 20 or 30 ways. Still, it would be a reasonable hunk of money each, but not only that, the blow struck for the cause of homoeopathy would be immense.

Why aren't they queueing up to give it a shot? Because they know perfectly well, in their heart of hearts, that they can't do it. Homoeopathy only works when you're allowed to claim any outcome as success. When a falsifiable test is devised you can't see them for dust.

Rolfe.
 
CFLarsen said:
He does no such thing. He says "Since ingesting this (snake venom) substance isn't necessarily dangerous". He even went on to say that "and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth".

Yes, exactly. My point proven.

My original statement : "Randi himself has often claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed, its only dangerous when injected into the blood directly through a bite. So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely."

Two parts to it :
1) Safe to drink
2) Dangerous if enters the blood through a snakebite.

Now lets quote Randi exactly
"Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous, and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth, we declined the idea on ethical grounds."

Two parts to it:
1) Safe to drink
2) dangerous if enters the blood through a cut in the mouth.

So, Randi said 'ingesting' not 'drinking' and he said 'cut in the mouth' not 'bite' Most people would agree that is this exactly the same.

But to CFLarsen, the two are a million miles apart.
 
Peter Morris said:
Yes, exactly. My point proven.

Huh??

Peter Morris said:
My original statement : "Randi himself has often claimed that snake venom isn't poisonous when swallowed, its only dangerous when injected into the blood directly through a bite. So, even if the solution was a poison, the doctors could drink it safely."

Two parts to it :
1) Safe to drink
2) Dangerous if enters the blood through a snakebite.

Now lets quote Randi exactly
"Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous, and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth, we declined the idea on ethical grounds."

Two parts to it:
1) Safe to drink
2) dangerous if enters the blood through a cut in the mouth.

So, Randi said 'ingesting' not 'drinking' and he said 'cut in the mouth' not 'bite' Most people would agree that is this exactly the same.

Where does Randi say it is "safe" to drink? "Safely" means "free from harm or risk" (Webster).

Peter Morris said:
But to CFLarsen, the two are a million miles apart.

I simply showed that you are in error. You have been completely unable to show where Randi has actually claimed what you said.
 
Peter Morris said:


So you mean that instead of saying: "So, if homeopathy is true, a dilution of snake venom would be an antidote to a smakebite " I should have said "A dilution of snake venom would treat diseases with symptoms similar to those caused by a snake bite" Is that right?

Thank you for clarifying that point.

Belive me homeopaths will never shut up if you get that on wrong.
 
CFLarsen said:
Where does Randi say it is "safe" to drink? "Safely" means "free from harm or risk" (Webster).


When he said "Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous"

Not dangerous = safe.

I simply showed that you are in error. You have been completely unable to show where Randi has actually claimed what you said.

Apart from when he said "Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous, and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth, we declined the idea on ethical grounds." which is exactly what I claimed.

And when he talked about drinking rat poison.

And when he talked about handling snakes.

If you ignore those three, then he never said anything about it, other than on a few TV shows, and so on.
But you're right, apart from that.
 
Peter Morris said:
When he said "Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous"

Not dangerous = safe.

He did not say "not dangerous". He said "isn't necessarily dangerous".

Peter Morris said:
Apart from when he said "Since ingesting this substance isn't necessarily dangerous, and yet might kill the man if he had a cut in his mouth, we declined the idea on ethical grounds." which is exactly what I claimed.

Nope.

Peter Morris said:
And when he talked about drinking rat poison. And when he talked about handling snakes.

Which was not part of your claim. You never mentioned either of these.

Peter Morris said:
If you ignore those three, then he never said anything about it, other than on a few TV shows, and so on.
But you're right, apart from that.

I am not "ignoring" them, because they were not part of your claim.
 
Rolfe wrote:
Why aren't they queueing up to give it a shot? Because they know perfectly well, in their heart of hearts, that they can't do it. Homoeopathy only works when you're allowed to claim any outcome as success. When a falsifiable test is devised you can't see them for dust.

Indeed. That's because the majority of homeopaths are undeniable fraudsters. However, what about honest ones who are merely deluded? Why arn't they breaking down Randi's door? There must be a reason.

My suspicion is that such persons who are stupid enough to actually beleive homeopathy works would find mingling with the likes of Randi incredibly intimidating... These 'skeptics' with all their big long words and clever sounding sentances indeed! And the way they don't let me get away with spouting off ad-hominem nonsense! Oh no no no, must not talk to these people. These skeptics are the enemy. They are the devil. They must be avoided at all costs, even if there's a chance of getting rich. I don't like money really. Money is the root of all evil. Money is the devil.

:rolleyes:

At the end of the day, people can whinge and moan at Randi's technique all day long. It is highly irrelevant. The fact that the only consistent thing about homeopathy is that it ALWAYS fails proper testing speaks for itself, and overrides any transgressions of fairness and objectivity Randi may or may not have made when assesing applications for the million dollar prize.
 
tommjames said:
However, what about honest ones who are merely deluded? Why arn't they breaking down Randi's door? There must be a reason.
I think you're pretty close with your explanation.

The other thing that comes into play is the natural "what's the catch?" reaction. Why is this prize still available for something that should be as easy as proving that gravity works? They really don't want to consider the obvious explanation, which is that actually, homoeopathy doesn't work. So they're very open to the other explanation which is that Randi is a fraud, any test they agree to will be falsified, and the million dollars doesn't exist anyway.

Unfortunately I think the thread was deleted in the big Homeopathy Home purge, but there was a sincere believer there, Anna Bryant, who said she'd like to give it a shot. She started asking for details about how often she'd have to do the proving to satisfy the statistical requirements for the definitive test. Then she apparently had a number of PMs from the most devious and underhand proponents, telling her not to associate with the enemy, it would all be faked to make sure she failed, and the money didn't exist.

I think the ordinary people who believe in homoeopathy don't understand a lot of the details of the provings, or even know about the Challenge. Once they really get into it, I suspect there comes a point where doubts begin to creep in, and that's when the religious quality of the belief puts up the barriers to considering anything that might challenge that belief.

The supreme irony is that one of the most blinkered and vituperative homoeopaths on the H'pathy forum actually has a definition of "cognitive dissonance" as her sig line.

Rolfe.
 
Okay, I stand corrected.

Randi didn't say it's safe to drink snake venom unless it enters the blood directly through a bite.

What he really said was its's not necessarily dangerous to drink snake venom unless it enters the blood directly through a cut.

And on another occasion he said that its safe to drink poison, in an article about handling snakes. That's its safe to drink poison, rather than its safe to drink venom.

Yes, I was wrong, because I quoted Randi as saying its safe, when he really said that it isn't necessarily dangerous.

I'm sure that everyone will agree that's a huge difference there. "not necessarily dangerous" rather than "safe".

I'm glad we've got that cleared up.

sheesh.
 
CFLarsen said:
He did not say "not dangerous". He said "isn't necessarily dangerous".

Expanding the contraction, we get: "is NOT necessarily DANGEROUS." Since necessarily here means the same thing as "always" in this useage, and since the modal-logic opposite of always is "sometimes": it means "is sometimes NOT DANGEROUS".

Give it up Larsen, you're wrong on this (silly) point.
 

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