Homeopathy challenge question

[Mojo]

This has often been done as a publicity stunt by skeptics, including a number of very public "suicide attempts" by them using whole bottles each of homeopathic sleeping pillules.*

The homeopaths were aghast! Thought there would be bodies littering the streets! Result: Some mild sugar-highs only, no changes otherwise noted.

I've seen homoeopaths claim that any number of pills will just count as a single dose if they are all taken at the same time, so no overdosing will have occurred.

 

[Gr8wight]

And it is this very process that confuses the heck out of the homeopaths. They naively calculate that the sum of the discards from each step of a serial dilution constitutes the overall dilution factor. For example, after 10 dilutions at 1:10, they reckon that the end dilution ratio is (10*9):1, or 90:1. The reality is that it is 10¹⁰:1, or 10,000,000,000:1 It gets worse, believe me. Their maths abilities are remarkably weak...

On the contrary. I have just done some research on the web for a blog article I wrote on the subject, and most of the Alt-Med and Homeopathy websites I consulted were very open about the extremities of the dilutions. Some openly admitted that dilutions past 12C were unlikely to still contain any of the original ingredient. Yet, they insist that the potentising succussions between dilutions maintained the beneficial properties of the medications. It is truly a belief in ritual magic, as another poster here has said.

 

[brodski]

I've seen homoeopaths claim that any number of pills will just count as a single dose if they are all taken at the same time, so no overdosing will have occurred.

Taking lots of homeopathic "remedies" at the same time won't lead to an overdose, in fact each additional pill you take will lessen the effects of the remedy. if you really want to OD on homeopathy, take half a tablet (for double the effect), or if your really really want to overdose don't take it at all!

 

[Yahzi]

If you can do this then there is something fundamentally wrong with our understanding of basic chemistry. Good luck.

It never ceases to amaze me.

Somebody comes into the forum and breathlessly announces, "I can prove fundamental chemistry is wrong, revoke a half-dozen Nobel prizes, and overturn the last 100 years of science! Do you think it's worth Randi's million?"

Why is it the woos, who whine about our lack of imagination, are so... unimaginative?

 

[MRC_Hans]

'cuse me. For a proper challenge protocol, where the claimant can use any method he chooses t odistinguish between a homeoapthid remedy and blanks, we need to make sure there is no spurious difference, which would put his random chance at 50%. Thus remdy and control should be prepared along these lines:

Assume the remedy is to be 30C.

Then some 12C or thereabouts is aquired (if not available it is made from scratch). At 12C one drop of remedy is placed in a new container, and topped up with 99 drop of solvent. In another container, 100 drops of solvent are placed. Both are now succussed. One drop from each is transferred to a new container, topped up, succussed, etc, till the desired potency of both is reached. The resultant vials, with coded labelling are then presented to the claimant for identification.

Of course, the claimant must identify a number of such prepard vials to pass, and other soafeguards need be introduced, but the point of this is to ensure that the only differende between the remedy and the control is the (putative) presense of a potency of the mother tincture.

Hans

 

[Zep]

I've seen homoeopaths claim that any number of pills will just count as a single dose if they are all taken at the same time, so no overdosing will have occurred.

True. Which leads to the obvious conclusions:

1) That you can take many remedies at once in bulk, and not overdose; and thus...

2) Tap-water is a cure-all for every known illness!

 

[Zep]

On the contrary. I have just done some research on the web for a blog article I wrote on the subject, and most of the Alt-Med and Homeopathy websites I consulted were very open about the extremities of the dilutions. Some openly admitted that dilutions past 12C were unlikely to still contain any of the original ingredient. Yet, they insist that the potentising succussions between dilutions maintained the beneficial properties of the medications. It is truly a belief in ritual magic, as another poster here has said.

Ah, sorry - my mistake. I'm far more familiar with the Pakistani homeopaths, and so had them in mind when I wrote my post. Their level of knowledge of basic mathematics, let alone basic chemistry and physics, is about on par with a 4th-grader. What is more, magic and ritual, and especially religion, already play a large part in their lives. So it is comfortable for them to incorporate magic and ritual into their medical knowledge instead of facts, to not question same because it is a matter of faith, and to actively reject facts that defy these beliefs.

Yes, the situation you describe of dilution far beyond molarity are obviously apparent to most educated people in the world, most homeopaths included. But even Nobel laureates in physics can succumb to ludicrous faith-based crackpottery - Professor Brian Josephson, for example.

 

[macgyver]

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but if all we need to do is test whether or not a 12C or 30C dilution still contains some "mother tincture", couldn't we just dillute some radioactive isotope to the required dillution, and then test the resultant dilluted solution?

No measurable radioactivity = no molecules of mother tincture

Plus it would have the benefit of being an incredibly powerful anti-radiation medication.

 

[Ririon]

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but if all we need to do is test whether or not a 12C or 30C dilution still contains some "mother tincture", couldn't we just dillute some radioactive isotope to the required dillution, and then test the resultant dilluted solution?

No measurable radioactivity = no molecules of mother tincture

Plus it would have the benefit of being an incredibly powerful anti-radiation medication.

You would get to background radiation long before Avogadro's limit. The problem is getting somebody who actually believes that there are still molecules there even if you explain the simple reason why there aren't, and still is sane and intelligent enough to go through the application process...

Most homeopaths, however, do not claim that there are any of the original molecules left. It's all magic vibrations and quantum nonsense.

 

[macgyver]

You would get to background radiation long before Avogadro's limit. The problem is getting somebody who actually believes that there are still molecules there even if you explain the simple reason why there aren't, and still is sane and intelligent enough to go through the application process...

Most homeopaths, however, do not claim that there are any of the original molecules left. It's all magic vibrations and quantum nonsense.

I'm still trying to figure out the "like cures like" logic....forget the dilution issue.

 

[LordoftheLeftHand]

Most homeopaths, however, do not claim that there are any of the original molecules left. It's all magic vibrations and quantum nonsense.

The part that drives me nuts is they want us to believe not just one ludicrous claim; they want us to believe several (and forgive me if I have mentioned this before):

1. That like cures like - That a substance that causes headaches in a healthy person will also cure a headache!

2. That diluting something makes it stronger - contrary to every experience you have ever had!

3. That a solution diluted past Avogadro's limit will be somehow (the claims differ here) different than just plain solvent. - This is a more technical argument, but basically there are a certain number of molecules of active ingredient. If you dilute them past a certain point the chance that even one of the original molecules remains in the solution because less and less. At 30C the chance of a single original molecules remaining is astronomically small. Others believe the original molecules are gone but have had their properties "rubbed off" onto the remaining solvent (water).

4. That the solutions contain the "good aspects" of the original ingredients, but not the "bad aspects/side effects" - That somehow this magical process intuitively knows what is good and bad about a substance and systematically increases the good and removes the bad.

LLH

 

[Yahzi]

That the solutions contain the "good aspects" of the original ingredients, but not the "bad aspects/side effects"

This always bugs me too. How does that work? It can only help, never hurt? How does that match any natural process we have ever experienced?

 

[Pope130]

This always bugs me too. How does that work? It can only help, never hurt? How does that match any natural process we have ever experienced?

And: How does it "know" what is helpful or harmful? For example, if my boss (who suffers from high blood pressure) took a nostrum that lowered blood pressure she would be helped. On the other hand if I (who have low blood pressure) took it I would be harmed.

Enquiring minds want to know.
Robert

 

[Qureshi1_78]

Pope the point is that you want to understand things according to your own make up of mind. The man who was thinking ridicolous things three hundred years ago, now a routine matter in todays life. To understand something we must understand first

The observation and then the causes of observations. An observation is observed in patients when causticum in dribling of urine is given and the man got cured. How it was happend it is the second part. If the anser is not yet available then this does not mean that dribling of urine was not there.

 

[rjh01]

Most people who were thinking ridiculous things 300 years ago are now forgotten people. Just because there are a few exceptions does not mean that people who think ridiculous things now have any validity. This means that people who use such arguments are probably talking junk.

Remember the people you are posting to do tend to question things. You post rubbish and they will point out the rubbish. This is not NCH where such things are not allowed.

 

[rjh01]

Deleted. Double post