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Homeopathy challenge question

Mojo said:
They should be able to tell them apart by observing "proving" symptoms (if they exist outside the imaginations of homoeopaths).
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Yes, they should be. But not every applicant might make the same claim as homoeopathy itself does.

Heck, they *should* be able to name you the ingredient even without being given a limited set of options. "here's a little flask of water, taken from an entire ocean into which we poured 5 drops of ...?"

Rasmus.
 
brodski said:
Where would one find a "trustworthy" supplier of homeopathic remedies?
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Personally, I wouldn't trust anyone who makes a living selling homoeopathic remedies. But there could still be trustworthy sources: A regular lab that is being paid to perform the necessary steps for example.

Outsourcing the process seems reasonable, I guess it would be difficult and expensive, to produce the solution whilst ensuring that everything is done right, with no contaminations, etc.

Rasmus.
 
Lothian said:
What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.
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The problem with that idea, and what shot down the previous homeopath who applied, is that it requires for the test that real medicine be withheld from someone who needs it. This is against the stated policy of the JREF, and so cannot be tested.

JREF said:
JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort
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Gr8wight said:
The problem with that idea, and what shot down the previous homeopath who applied, is that it requires for the test that real medicine be withheld from someone who needs it. This is against the stated policy of the JREF, and so cannot be tested.
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It would also be very time consuming (the process could take weeks or months), and very difficult to control (the homeopaths themselves couldn't know whether they give the placebo or uhmm... the other placebo to each patient).
I say testing the efficacy of homeopathic drugs should be left to the medical researchers.
Oh wait, they already tested those pills. And decided they're ineffective.
As someone told me in a different thread: how many times should we test them?
 
Gr8wight said:
Lothian said:
What would pass a test is a homeopathic mixture (with none or very few mother molecules) in it producing results beyond placebo.
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The problem with that idea, and what shot down the previous homeopath who applied, is that it requires for the test that real medicine be withheld from someone who needs it. This is against the stated policy of the JREF, and so cannot be tested.
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They could try to tell the difference by observing proving symptoms. These are symptoms that homoeopaths claim their remedies produce in healthy people. No need for the subjects to be ill; no question of withholding medication.

If proving symptoms are as obvious and dramatic as homoeopaths claim they are, this should be a perfectly simple way for them to win the challenge. None of them have taken this up yet.
 
I really don’t think it matters how the homeopath is going to tell the difference between the vials of properly prepared solutions and the vials of solvent. Maybe it would be best not to ask. Just give them a box full of numbered vials and have them determine which is which by what ever means they choose (like Rolfe’s idea).

LLH
 
Mojo said:
They could try to tell the difference by observing proving symptoms. These are symptoms that homoeopaths claim their remedies produce in healthy people. No need for the subjects to be ill; no question of withholding medication.

If proving symptoms are as obvious and dramatic as homoeopaths claim they are, this should be a perfectly simple way for them to win the challenge. None of them have taken this up yet.
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Not to mention, of course, that rational people fail to see harm in letting people consume water.
 
Call me an optimist.

If the million is won I would like it to be for something that will change the world for the better. Someone that can see into the future, find water with just sticks or cure the ill with sugar pills.

Telling apart water capsules, while statistically fantastic, doesn’t provide the exciting breakthrough the world has been promised by the supernatural believers.

It might pass the test, but what use is it ?
 
Mojo said:
They could try to tell the difference by observing proving symptoms. These are symptoms that homoeopaths claim their remedies produce in healthy people. No need for the subjects to be ill; no question of withholding medication.

If proving symptoms are as obvious and dramatic as homoeopaths claim they are, this should be a perfectly simple way for them to win the challenge. None of them have taken this up yet.
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I don't find it beyond belief that feeding healthy people high concentration doses of various substances can cause deleterious effects. That claim is not extraordinary in any way. The claim that is extraordinary is the one that states that remedies made of extreme dilutions of said substances can have any effect at all on people, be they healthy or ill.
 
Gr8wight said:
I don't find it beyond belief that feeding healthy people high concentration doses of various substances can cause deleterious effects. That claim is not extraordinary in any way. The claim that is extraordinary is the one that states that remedies made of extreme dilutions of said substances can have any effect at all on people, be they healthy or ill.
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Provings are carried out using the actual "remedy" rather than the crude substance it is prepared from. See here, for example:
The process of curing and the process of proving are alike, but they are the inverse of each other. A healthy person who takes a "medicine" (potentised agent) in the process of a proving will come up with symptoms determined by their susceptibility to it. A sick person who takes a remedy prescribed according to the law of similars, will experience restoration of his health.
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Note that they are talking about a "potentised agent", not the crude substance.

See also here, where Homeopath Syed is describing the horrendous symptoms allegedly produced by a 200c remedy.
 
I found that while I was looking for a site to quote in my last reply. unfortunately I was at work and had trouble keeping a straight face.

Mind you, I'm disappointed by the proving of Bewick's Swan (prepared from a feather). I was kind of hoping that they'd prepared it from a wood engraving.

In view of some of the other provings there I didn't think this was too unlikely.

Do you really approve of that site? ;)
 
rjh01 said:
I think we need to dilute the control samples as well. This is to ensure that you are not detecting the dilution process. For example if the solvent was beer, you dilute some beer with the same type of beer. Then you would have beer diluted with beer (control sample) and drug diluted with beer (drug sample).
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NOW we're talking.

To achieve homeopathic solutions of anything, you'll need to bring in Planet Beer, which is roughly the size of Jupiter and entirely made of beer.
 
Who cares about achieving homoeopathic solutions anyway? I'm off to planet beer (AKA the pub).
 
Rolfe said:
You have to look at this lot.

Rolfe.
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I am going to be so rich!

I will become a drug dealer for potentized LSD and Heroin.

All I will have to do is illegally acquire one dose of each, and then delute the entire amount to C14. The police can't touch me for storing water, or selling it.

I assume my customers will just love me - what I sell will be of the finest quality, inducing highs they have never known before.

Naturally, I will also revolutionize trafficking across borders; and in only months to come, I will control the international market. Since I will barely require any actual drugs - and mostly water - i will single handedly bring down world production of most drugs, too, as I take on new substances.

Then, since I am a good person, after milking the world markets for a year or two, I will stop the drug problem. (My plan is to slowly lowly lower the potencies to something totally ineffective like C5; I will need quite a bit of origial substance for that, but surely my customers will notice the drop in efficiency and - having nowhere else to turn anymore - will just have to stop using drugs.)

And don't tell me it doesn't work: I know it does, it's what they are doiung with American beer already!

Rasmus.
 
Rasmus said:
I am going to be so rich!

I will become a drug dealer for potentized LSD and Heroin.

All I will have to do is illegally acquire one dose of each, and then delute the entire amount to C14. The police can't touch me for storing water, or selling it.

I assume my customers will just love me - what I sell will be of the finest quality, inducing highs they have never known before.

Naturally, I will also revolutionize trafficking across borders; and in only months to come, I will control the international market. Since I will barely require any actual drugs - and mostly water - i will single handedly bring down world production of most drugs, too, as I take on new substances.

Then, since I am a good person, after milking the world markets for a year or two, I will stop the drug problem. (My plan is to slowly lowly lower the potencies to something totally ineffective like C5; I will need quite a bit of original substance for that, but surely my customers will notice the drop in efficiency and - having nowhere else to turn anymore - will just have to stop using drugs.)

And don't tell me it doesn't work: I know it does, it's what they are doiung with American beer already!

Rasmus.
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but remember homeopathic preparations are meant to have the opposite effect to the base substance. so, so for instance heroin 20C would cause you a massive amount of pain (as heroin is a pain killer) maybe
LSD 20C would make you see things exactly as they are. Perhaps coffee 200C will get you drunk tough, or maybe act as a sleeping tablet.
:p
 
brodski said:
but remember homeopathic preparations are meant to have the opposite effect to the base substance. so, so for instance heroin 20C would cause you a massive amount of pain (as heroin is a pain killer) maybe
LSD 20C would make you see things exactly as they are. Perhaps coffee 200C will get you drunk tough, or maybe act as a sleeping tablet.
:p
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Nah, 200C anabuse would be a potent way to get drunk :)

And what's the one for morphine addiction, methadone? That's the one to get high on, homeopathically.
 
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