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Homeopathy banned in Belgium.
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RationalVetMed
Graduate Poster
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How can we be sure that such degrees will never exist? What is to stop a group of pro-homeopathic medics setting up a homeopathic medical school and issuing degrees to other pro-homeopathic doctors who have completed the course as a post-graduate qualification?
Cheers,
Yuri
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
I think that is the issue. If what you suggest is possible then doctors would be able to continue to practice. Otherwise homoeopathy will soon be illegal as no one will have the qualifications to perform in Belgium.
wardenclyffe
Master Poster
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Does the decree say that the institute of higher learning must be in Belgium? Can a Belgian practitioner have a degree from a school in the Netherlands or France?
Ward
Ward
FromBelgiumWithLove
Unregistered
The realities of the educational system in Belgium, which is almost entirely taxpayer-funded. You can't just set up a private entity, call it a "homeopathic medical school", start issuing meaningless pieces of paper, and then expect those pieces of paper to be recognized as proper medical qualifications by the Ministry of Health. Also, the several different Ministries of Education would not be amused, nor would the various professional bodies that regulate doctors, dentists and midwives (the only people who would qualify for these non-existent additional "homeopathy degrees").
FromBelgiumWithLove
Unregistered
Yes. If it's proper degree, from a properly accredited academic institution, accepted as such in Belgium. Do you know of any such universities or medical schools, anywhere, who offer degrees in homeopathy?
And remember: the "homeopath" will also first have to qualify as either a doctor, a dentist or a midwife, be properly licensed in Belgium with the Ministry of Health, and be a member of their professional body. Those bodies would no doubt be a bit suspicious of new applicants for membership with some foreign piece of paper as their credential. Especially when that piece of paper says
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Daylightstar
Philosopher
It appears to me that the for this decree accepted training is the unnamed one Onkelinx refers to in the link which Micheal H gave above:
Chrome translation French>English.This was mentioned in the section about transitional provisions for fifty identified homeopathic practitioners which are currently not a doctor, dentist or midwife but otherwise provide standard professional health care.
Having standard health care givers acting as homeopaths be subjected to the same rules as their main practice is a good thing.
As implied by the same link as given above, Royal Decree No 78 on the practice of the professions of health care might be an interesting document to study ....
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wardenclyffe
Master Poster
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I know of no such institution, but it would not surprise me to learn that there are many. Perhaps there are none.
How hard is it to qualify as a midwife? I'm genuinely asking. I have no idea. I would assume that it's a much lower bar than doctor or dentist.
Ward
Daylightstar
Philosopher
Apparently, according to Onkelinx, there are/is.
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
I suggest you google midwife qualifications. Then you will, like I did find sites like this one http://www.midwives.org.au/scripts/cgiip.exe/WService=MIDW/ccms.r?pageid=10189
ddt
Mafia Penguin
So, why don't we look at the Royal Decree?
Here it is. (click on the "FR" button in the top-left if you prefer the French version).
It starts with a cover letter of Ms. Onkelinkx to the King, which contains some comments as to the procedure and the actual implementation; then it's followed by the advisory of the Raad van State (somewhat like the Privy Council), and finally, with the line with the date "26 maart 2014", the actual Royal Decree starts.
Ms. Onkelinx says in her cover letter clearly:
See also article 3 of the Decree, second hyphen. To me, this says that the homeopathy diploma can only be given by public, officially acknowledged institutes of higher learning, not some quack institute which calls itself university.
BTW, the first condition for registering as homeopath is that you have an accredited education as physician, dentist or midwife.
She acknowledges that there is no such education yet. But there's also a grandfather clause, and anyone who has had some homeopathy education which is recognized by the Kamer voor Homeopathie (Chamber for Homeopathy) can register before five years from the date of the Decree. That chamber is appointed by the Minister, and consists of five people from universities and five
ETA: According to this question of a Belgian MP to the Minister, from 2012, Prof. Wim Betz - a noted opponent of homeopathy - has been appointed to the Chamber for Homeopathy after all.
When I read the Decree - as well as Ms. Onkelinx' comments - correctly, it's interesting to note that the Chamber for Homeopathy only has a say on past educations (for the grandfather clause), but not on future educations.
It seems Ms. Onkelinx is confident universities will outfit such a homeopathy specialization. In that respect, I think it's interesting to note from the list in the SKEPP thread, that of the five university representatives, only 2 actually work at the university and 3 are GPs. In other words, those people can waste their time in the Chamber, but the universities easily can say "no" to such an education in the end.
There's a EU-wide regulation that degrees of higher learning for educations of at least four years must be recognized in other countries, directive 89/48/EEC, since 1989.
So, a Dutch dentist probably can just set up shop in Belgium. Physicians often have local requirements beyond the BSc/MSc/MD/whatever diploma, like internships, before they may call themselves "physician".
As to the specialization as "homeopath", the Royal Decree sets forth only some minimum requirements on number of hours theoretical training and number of hours internship with a registered homeopath; and that it is given by an accredited university or institution of higher learning. If a recognized Dutch or French university, for instance one that is on the list of the Belgian implementation of the above EU directive, would offer a course that satisfies the above requirements, you may have a very strong case that it must be recognized.
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Yes. You can also get degrees in such things as acupunture and herbal medicine, although that article incorrectly claims that homeopathy is no longer available. There are still homeopathic hospitals in the NHS.
FromBelgiumWithLove
Unregistered
Exactly. This is part of what I earlier referred to as the "sunset clause", and someone else referred to as the "grandfather clause". It only applies to about 50 people in Belgium. These are people without medical qualifications but who have set up shop as homeopaths, and they're given a grace period of five years, during which time they will have get themselves in line with the newly-introduced regulations. Which in their case would mean, first of all, getting a real medical degree. And also try and get one of those elusive properly accredited degrees in homeopathy. Plus, membership of the professional body they would have to belong to to be able to practice.
FromBelgiumWithLove
Unregistered
That is positively scary. I always thought the UK was a sensible place. And that appears to be a real university (although I'm guessing a former polytechnic), not a diploma mill.
That the NHS indulges homeopathic quackery doesn't surprise me as much, though. This is an organisation that until the 1960's provided "aversion therapy", administered by real doctors, to cure gay people from their alleged disease. And that involved the use of real, highly potent drugs. Providing "hospital care" that consists of dispensing distilled water and sugar pills seems mild by comparison.
FromBelgiumWithLove
Unregistered
There was a problem some years ago with a diploma mill, right here in town, which basically handed out meaningless non-degrees to rich kids too stupid and/or lazy to get a proper degree, in return for lots of daddy's money. They called themselves the "European University". And it turned out little could be done about it legally. It wasn't apparently against any law in Belgium to set up a company and call it a university. But the scandal surrounding them did force them to close down.
Yet I see from a quick google that they're still in the same business, but have relocated to Switzerland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_University
(A very bad article, BTW, which mostly seems to consist of stuff lifted straight from their own advertising, and doesn't mention why they fled Belgium. But in Switzerland, it seems there are at least legal attempts underway towards banning them from calling themselves a university.)
So yes, some of the various competing groups of Belgian homeopaths could set up a Belgian University of Homeopathy, and start issuing diplomas. It's not going to fly, I'm afraid. As I said before, it's not just the Ministry of Health that is going to scrutinize these supposed degrees, the various Ministries of Education will have a say in the matter too, and the professional bodies.
Or she pretends to do so, for the sake of politeness. After all, she is a politician, she needs votes, and there are lots of voters out there who firmly believe in homeopathy.
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The royals have been big on homeopathy for a century. That's been the back door through which all this stuff has crawled, supported by the likes of David Tredinnick (Tory MP).
There's been a battle going on for the past 4 years or so to get it removed from the NHS. A damning report on homeopathy a couple of years ago was ignored by the government, who were unwilling to bring in legislation to remove quackery.
Yep, I'm afraid so. A former poly, but also one of the biggest universities in the country. That just happened to be the first one I found, I'd be absolutely amazed if there weren't others - the Telegraph article suggests degrees in quackery are becoming less common, but they're far from gone.
I'd have thought the two pretty much go hand in hand, which is why I posted it. The NHS is far from perfect, but it generally tries to at least give the appearance of legitimacy. If you can get homeopathic treatment on the NHS, you can bet that those homeopaths will have some sort of official qualification. And when it comes to the thread topic, I'd be very surprised if officially endorsed qualifications that allow you to offer treatment on the NHS would not be accepted as valid by other EU states. So while the Belgian legislation certainly seems to be a step in the right direction, I can't see it getting rid of homeopathy without the rest of the EU following along.
ddt
Mafia Penguin
Two small corrections: if you read article 8 of the Royal Decree, those who are grandfathered in must have both
(1) at least a bachelor degree in some health area
(2) have followed (or are following) homeopathic education which is recognized by the Chamber for Homeopathy.
both on the date the Royal Decree has been issued. So, no one without a proper education in normal healthcare practices is grandfathered in. The only grandfathering-in is for the lack of accredited homeopathy courses in the past.
Wow, I'm surprised the name "university" is not protected. Has that loophole been closed? And did they also try to cash in on confusion with the renowned College of Europe in Brugge (Bruges)?
Of course not, the Federal state decides on registration, and any sensible judge will understand the term "university" within the law on higher education - and EU regulation, so you could have a problem with that British homeopathy education.
I hope so. It would be a masterful stroke, to regulate homeopathy out of existence this way.
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FromBelgiumWithLove
Unregistered
I've finally had some time to look into this a bit closer, and it seems it has been closed. Though not in the Netherlands, where they're apparently still working on it and hope to get it fixed by 2015. I will also have to correct something I wrote earlier in the thread. Googling was a bit problematic, because I had to use search terms in Dutch and kept finding things about the situation in the Netherlands, not Belgium. But one of those was interesting, it's an advisory report from 2010 prepared for the Dutch ministry of education that was looking into this problem, and it includes a survey of how these things are handled legally in other countries. It can be found at:
http://www.scienceguide.nl/media/451761/rapport%20bescherming%20namen%20en%20titels.pdf
It only talks about the situation for the Dutch-speaking part of the country (since there is no federal authority over education in Belgium), but that's where the European University plied its trade. In 2003, the Flemish Parliament passed something entitled "Decreet betreffende de herstructurering van het hoger onderwijs in Vlaanderen (B.S.14/08/2003; Structuurdecreet)". BTW, this use of the word "decreet" is why I prefer to use the term Royal Order for what started this thread, rather than Royal Decree. It avoids confusion, because the one is just a ministerial decision implementing existing legislation. This "decreet" is actual legislation.
To try and summarize briefly, they took a two-pronged approach.
First, instead of trying to come up with a set of legal rules for who can or cannot call themselves a university (or other names for institutes of higher education), they simply included a list in the law, while giving the government the power to amend that list should necessity arrive, in the case of mergers or splits for instance. If you're not on the list, you're not allowed to call yourself a university, it's that simple.
Second, the original draft legislation included penal clauses for those in violation. However, during the process of passage it was discovered that this wasn't needed. There already was a law on the books, from 1933, about the protection of academic titles. This law was passed when Belgium was still a unitary state, so it later became what we now call federal legislation. Here, the European University comes into play again. Googling confirmed some long-dormant memories about that scandal. The reason they closed up shop in Belgium and fled to Switzerland was that someone had remembered that law, and they ran the risk of prosecution. It basically makes it a criminal offense for anyone to ape an institution of higher education, and hand out degrees that could be mistaken for proper academic ones. It's not a very serious offence, it only carries a jail sentence of 8 days to 3 months, and/or a fine of 200 to 1000 francs (I have no idea how much that would be in today's money, there's a multiplier formula applied to these amounts). But still, it makes you a criminal.
So I have to amend something I wrote earlier. It probably wouldn't be a good idea to set up something called a "University of Homeopathy". Although I doubt the police would come knocking on your door if that's all you did. What you definitely shouldn't do is then start handing out diplomas with names of real degrees on it, like "homeopathic nurse", or "bachelor of homeopathy" or something. Then, you'd be very definitely in breach of that 1933 law. So you'd better call yourself something like, say, the Hahnemann Institute, and invent some creative new titles to put on your diplomas, that cannot be mistaken for proper medical qualifications. Then, you can hand out meaningless pieces of paper to your heart's content.
At least, when you're operating in Flanders. What, if anything, they've done in the French-speaking education system, I have no idea.