Homeopathy, again!

[fishbob]

Would "quantum" properties of water be something like the "purple" properties of gravity or the "magnetic" properties of the legal system?

 

[geni]

Evidence of water behaveing in ways not allowed for by our current models?

And this brings me to my next question: Are all you sceptics of homeopathy sure that there is nothing scientific about it that we have not yet discovered? Are the scientific principals at play in homeopathy all been 100% verified or do we still have room for improvement on some knowledge level that we apply to dismissing homeopathy? Like maybe still not fully understand the properties of liquids etc?

Can't rule out the posibilty that there is a dragon in my garage. What of it?

I do in my absolute minimal knowledge of quantum physics disagree with Slimething when he said:
These mathematics deal with energy transitions and states, not macro effects like "water memory" or any other such nonsense
These energy trasitions and states will be able to influence another energy system surely.
The proponents of homeopathy will quickly jump on this argument as state that the water's "energy" is entangled in the water molecules or something to that extend.

Yeah but you get hit by the uncertianly principle which puts a limit on information storage.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Sigh:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39548

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6451

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40321

There are a few others... but I believe that there is sufficient discussion to go back on about this paper.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Just to add 2 cents, Rey's paper reported a solid-state phenomenon; it was not a solution phenomenon. He hypothesized that what he was seeing related to the structure of water, but did not test that hypothesis by recording the equivalent spectra of salts that are water-structure breakers. Finally, all his experimental results could be invalidated by contamination; it wouldn't have taken a lot.

I'm sure meme will not understand any of this. First he would have to understand what the difference is between a solute, solution, solid, and gas.

Does he know what is meant by contamination?

Heck, getting crystals that were barely over 0.009 contaminate lost me many marks on my lab work in Organic Chemistry. Er, that was 10 years ago, I think I know what I'm talking about. Basically, 0.01 was a pass, and 0.0150 was not good at all, and often yielded ugly crystals that looked more like sand in some cases.

Um, salts?

Anyways, I'm wondering why Meme figures there is anything to homeopathy, never mind that quantum hooey.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

These energy trasitions and states will be able to influence another energy system surely.

OHHHHH ENERGY!!! Heh. That mysterious FORCE. Hmm.

Trasitions and states too! I'm seeing it all more clearly now.

Basically science is ignored in place of wishy washy definitions of energy and states and uh... transitions.

Grade school should have cleared that up long ago, but for some reason people aren't even that educated anymore. Sigh.

 

[Jackalgirl]

My first major post here so please bear with me. ...

Howdy, Meme, and welcome --

Am I correct in that you're working from the assumption that homeopathy works, and you're trying to figure out how? I just want to make sure I'm understanding your OP.

Do you think that there is something to homeopathy? Why? Is it because of the studies you've mentioned?

If so, could you post some links? I know this has been asked before, and I know you're also new so there are some limits, but you can do it if you just put spaces into your links: h t t p : / / www. thisplace. org

So far, folks have come up with a pretty good rundown of experimentation protocol (and how a bad protocol can lead to bad conclusions) and the importance of being able to independently duplicate an experiment's results. So far, homeopathy hasn't held up to any kind of rigorous study -- that's the gist of things.

It is quite true that the explanation of how something works might be beyond us -- that we may simply not understand (yet) the scientific principles that explain how something works. Totally, completely true statement. However, the important part of that statement is "how something works" -- that is, the assumption that "something works".

With homeopathy, as has been pointed out, it isn't a case of "it works, we don't know how". It's a case of "it doesn't work at all."

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

With quantum properties of water I was trying to say that maybe we do not yet know all there is to know.

First of all, you're attempting to use an argument from ignorance (which is a fallacy). What science does NOT know isn't evidence in support of anything.

Second, we do know that "quantum" is a term for sub-atomic structures. Mixing various things with water and shaking them up will NOT split apart atoms. In fact, it won't even break apart molecules of water.

If you are claiming that water has a capacity for memory, it's up to you as the claimant to come up with some proof. (And saying we don't know everything there is to know in the universe is not proof of anything.) In fact, I defy you to discriminate between a homeopathic remedy and plain old water if you are presented with unknown samples of each.

I also defy you to find any lab capable of creating solutions as dilute as are claimed in homeopathy. There is no lab able to keep contaminants out (from the air, from the machines used to do the mixing, from the containers, etc.) at the ultra-dilute levels claimed (like way beyond parts per trillion).

Did you know that the homeopathic remedy called Oscillococcinum purports to be a 200C preparation of rotten duck's heart and liver? 200C means a dilution of one part per 10^400--which is orders of magnitude larger than the estimated number of particles in the entire universe. So that's one molecule of rotten duck's heart (or liver) to a quantity of absolutely pure water many times larger than the entire universe if the universe were nothing except water. Get it? That's why we say it's magic.

 

[Slimething]

With quantum properties of water I was trying to say that maybe we do not yet know all there is to know. I am not imposing that not knowing all should now be treated with things where we cannot proof any of it. Just asking if we should not be cautious to fell judgement when we do not know all yet.

Perhaps this is where you're making your first logical error. Water is the most studied compound on the face of the planet because it is central to life, is the most abundant compound on earth, is a favored product in chemical reactions due to its stability, it has bizarre physical properties and is a marvelous solvent. So, you can't go around waving the "we don't know everything about it" flag so easily with water. The physical properties of water are very well understood. For your argument to hold any water (heh, heh), you must tell us precisely what aspect of water is not understood that leaves enough room for homeopoeitic properties to exist. So, please, do that.

And this brings me to my next question: Are all you sceptics of homeopathy sure that there is nothing scientific about it that we have not yet discovered? Are the scientific principals at play in homeopathy all been 100% verified or do we still have room for improvement on some knowledge level that we apply to dismissing homeopathy? Like maybe still not fully understand the properties of liquids etc?

Your line of questioning does not make any sense. I feel water is understood well enough that memory effects in water can be ruled out. If memory effects were true, there would be no method of making unpotable water potable. Also, there is NO science in homeopathy. None. If you believe there is, please present any such evidence that follows the scientific process. Peer reviewed would be a plus but anything that followed true scientific methodology would be a surprise. And, homeopathic claims have nothing to do with the properties of any other liquid than water, which is not always a liquid.

I do in my absolute minimal knowledge of quantum physics disagree with Slimething when he said:
These mathematics deal with energy transitions and states, not macro effects like "water memory" or any other such nonsense
These energy trasitions and states will be able to influence another energy system surely. The proponents of homeopathy will quickly jump on this argument as state that the water's "energy" is entangled in the water molecules or something to that extend.

This is where you come off really badly, meme. I can't say the rule is 100% but most skeptics are scholarly types and, as such, would extensively research our claims before posting them. You obviously have made no such effort. On my worst day, I would not have read something posted about a matter I knew little about and had the effrontery to disagree with the poster. After I'd done my due diligence, I might have disagreed if I still felt I was right but certainly not before a lot of work on my part.

"Quantum mechanics" is two words. Quantum is the name given to discrete, indivisible amounts of energy which electrons require to do what they do. Mechanics is the branch of physics which describes the effects of forces on matter. The field is a mathematically driven area of study that is backed up by a fair mountain of experiments showing agreement between the math and the modeled phenomena. Yes, electrons being excited or relaxing can and do impart energy to other molecules in their vicinity but that has nothing to do with memory effects. The quanta of energy emitted or stored by water cannot affect anything that is not there. If you still want to argue about QM or entanglement, you'll have to post your math. Otherwise, drop it as you'll just make a fool of yourself.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Meme

The biggest question that is staring you in the face, is why these papers are so few and far between when this is allegedly a powerful system of medicine whose robust affects can be achieved by nitwits who have been to a few night-classes, nitwits who apply the principles of their therapy so inconsistently that it is almost impossible to find any real agreement among a bunch of homeopaths as to what the corect theory is, yet they all claim it works.

You also should ask why the few papers that support homeopathy always involve ludicrously complex experimental models of exactly the type which can conceal deliberate cheating, or, to be more generous, make it hard to exclude subtle errors.

That would be the sceptical approach and should be applied just as actively to all medical and scientific claims. What bugs the homs is that when it is applied to them, they have nothing left- you winnow their evidence base and it turns out to be all chaff, whereas real medicine has a large mass of good wheat. Ironically, chaff has an extensive military use to distract attention from the real target and in homeopathy badly performed experimental studies are thrown out to divert attention from the vacuum of real hard evidence.

 

[Michael C]

Either water has a memory, or it doesn't.

- If water doesn't have a memory, homeopathy cannot possibly work.

- If water does have a memory, all the water on this planet must be full of memories.

How do the makers of homeopathic remedies erase the memory of water? How do they ensure that the water used for making the 10c preparation of belladonna is not contaminated by memories of duck's piss, frog's ****, chemicals from the purification plant, metal from the pipes, etc., etc.?

 

[neon]

I'm sorry, the "memory" of water?

I wasn't aware that water was a thing with a brain.

 

[cyborg]

I will dismiss all the "nice" replies (its like calling magic, quantum) and get straight to some answers.

Oh, you think it was an impertinent point do you?

Well here's the rub - anyone who says anything is 'quantum' without referring to energy quanta is merely using a section of physics whose predictions about the nature of the operation of the very small run counter to our macroscopic perspectives. As such they use the word but they do not use its meaning. The meaning they want to use is 'magic' as in:

"Water uses the principles of magic in order to store a memory of what it contains."

That would be accurate.

"Water uses the principles of quantum mechanics in order to store a memory of what it contains."

That would be nonsense. You might as well say:

"Water uses the principles of black holes in order to store a memory of what it contains."

Black holes containing a significant amount of physics that the lay person finds hard to comprehend. All three statements are just as explicative - i.e. they are not at all.

With quantum properties of water I was trying to say that maybe we do not yet know all there is to know.

That is obvious. However we do know what quantum mechanics is because that is the physical explanation we have derived for quantum effects. If you're not talking about quantum effects you are not talking quantum mechanics. As such one cannot interject random musings on possible phenomena and insert random physics terminology because the validity of talking about the phenomena in that domain has not been established.

I am not imposing that not knowing all should now be treated with things where we cannot proof any of it. Just asking if we should not be cautious to fell judgement when we do not know all yet.

The irony of course is that such statements are usually followed up with some made-up explanation which the adherents of whatever unscientific nonsense then expect scientists to take seriously.

Are all you sceptics of homeopathy sure that there is nothing scientific about it that we have not yet discovered?

Just as sure as there's nothing scientific about trying to purify lead in order to create gold.

Are the scientific principals at play in homeopathy all been 100% verified or do we still have room for improvement on some knowledge level that we apply to dismissing homeopathy? Like maybe still not fully understand the properties of liquids etc?

Homeopathy does not require us to attain a fuller understanding of liquids - it requires that we abandon what we do know, not simply about liquids but more fundamental things like thermodynamics.

The proponents of homeopathy will quickly jump on this argument as state that the water's "energy" is entangled in the water molecules or something to that extend.

That's nice of them. Now when they pony up the mathematics that shows the plausibility of this statement with regards to the well-established quantum mechanics we have thus far people might take this seriously. Until then quoting "energy" merely sets off the bullsh*t alarm.

 

[Meme101]

I bow down humbly before the majority of contributors on this threat. Even though I sense the fury that you defend this issue with (and I am not a converted Homeopathy believer), I would dread to feel that unleached on a true devout homeopathic surporter.

But I really did get a fire christening from this round one that I learned a lof from. It is clear that the majority of your contributors are knowledgeable in various field of science. I am persue my scientific studies further in order to be able to support remarks with more facts.

Thanks for having me on this round. I will take a lot of your arguments with me and trust to meet you all again in a few months time, maybe a bit wiser, but surely trying a bit harder to make sense of it all.

Regards

MEME101

 

[Mojo]

Homeopathy does not require us to attain a fuller understanding of liquids - it requires that we abandon what we do know, not simply about liquids but more fundamental things like thermodynamics.

More than that, it requires us to abandon what we know while providing no good evidence that we need to do so.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I'm sorry, the "memory" of water?

I wasn't aware that water was a thing with a brain.

...or any other information storage mechanism.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I will take a lot of your arguments with me and trust to meet you all again in a few months time, maybe a bit wiser, but surely trying a bit harder to make sense of it all.

Hmm, so Meme has the skeptic side on this issue now. He assures us that our questions have answers in trying to figure this out? Or will the "creative" answer be just as mind boggling incredible as they always have been?

Hey, I watched a really dumb show-Sons of Hollywood-or something. These quantum woo weirdos were trying to get Rod Stewart's son to appear in yet another "energy" movie. This time it will be about the moon.

Yep, the moon's ENERGY causes tides, it is soo strong this moon energy, so this moon energy must affect us humans too! The stupid lady going on about all this was talking about her "theory" about how this quantum moon energy affects us all! Yes, because quantum energy is just the smallest measure of all things' afffects on each other, blah blah.

 

[Jeff Corey]

I bow down humbly before the majority of contributors on this threat. Even though I sense the fury that you defend this issue with (and I am not a converted Homeopathy believer), I would dread to feel that unleached on a true devout homeopathic surporter...

No true devout homeopathic supporter should go unleached.
Bring on the leaches.

 

[Rolfe]

Hi Xanta.

Rolfe.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Hi Xanta.

Rofe.

That is not how you spell Rolfe.

*squints*

And that is totally the wrong avatar. It's not even a cat.

Hmph.

And I was all excited that Rolfe was back. Sigh.


*jumps up and down and points*

*and yells, "heyyyy everyboddyyyy, look, it's Rolfe, Rolfe is back!!!*

 

[Rolfe]

Oops, butterfingers. (Fixed it.)

The avatar will return after the election. How long after depends on whether I can ever get an internet connection at the New House with this different account system BT insists on giving me, which will inactivate my current dial-up number.

I'm not accusing anyone of sockpuppetry, really. Just try to remember who last jumped into the forum with her first post a hymn to the Rey experiment.

And wonder.

Rolfe.