I just want to be very clear that I was diagnosed by colonoscopy with Ulcerative colitis and Crohns disease. I had about 5 colonoscopies over the years - 2 gastros diagnosed Crohns and the last one diagnosed UC . I just want to make sure that it is understood that the diagnosis was NOT IBS - a functional disease - but always IBD, a structural disease. Both Crohns and UC are incurable (well, short of a colostomy for UC). My last colonoscvopy was 2 years ago and the gastro doc said that the results were so good he was unsure if he could call it IBD anymore - his very words were "whatever you are doing, keep doing it." That is just what I intend to do.
Homeopathic tablets
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Rolfe said:
Hello Rolfe,
It wasn't a view, rather an observation. It was pretty much the same observation Snoopy had - that people come to the homeopaths last. I also add that when conventional meds work they have no need to look to alternative medicine. The fact is that people are unhappy with convejntional medicine and so they do look for alternatives. I have said before that if you want alternative medicine gone all you need to do is make conventional medicine better.
Regarding the company I associate with - I think SNoopy is a fabulous homeopath, and person. I have followed her practice for years and have never seen her act in an irresponsable or risky manner regarding any real life clients.
Divina, I don't know very well and haven't seen her practice as she doesn't do online consults but she certainly follows the rules of classical homeopathy.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Yes, yes, I've just been reading your sycophantic grovelling posts to that lying fraud Wim Pardaan, and the rest of your anti-"troll" rants. Sigh.
Barb, for the sixty-fifth time, Wim is no more a vet than you are. Wim is a policeman or customs officer or something like that who says he has taken some sort of course in homoeopathy for animals. Probably that wasn't taught by people with veterinary qualifications either (even if it actually exists at all). He constantly makes the most elementary medical mistakes. He doesn't even know the difference between hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism. As far as I've been able to ascertain, he is not legally allowed to treat animal patients in Holland, so he is either grossly exaggerating (lying about) what he does, or simply breaking the law.
You seem to want real medicine to be able to fix everything. Well, so do we. But we're realists. It's doing pretty well by many standards, but there are still many things that can't really be cured. So if you're saying that alternative medicine is there to amuse or distract these patients, then it will presumably be around for some time to come.
However, can I try to get it through to you one more time that my point is not directed at the homoeopaths who take the cases real medicine has already done all it can for, but the homoeopaths (like Wim and Divina and Albert and even Shirley and yes, Snoopy) who try their best to dissuade people from consulting real doctors, who demonise real medicine to try to frighten people away from it, and who will do and say anything they can to try to prevent even the information that there is a reliable and safe treatment for the condition in question from appearing on their web site.
Snoopy may observe that people come to homoeopathy last, but she's sure doing her damndest to persuade them to change that habit, isn't she? How do you really feel about that?
Do you really, honestly, believe that the constant deletion of my posts giving the facts about conventional treatment for hyperthyroidism (including a direct quote from the published data sheet for methimazole to counter Wim's hysterically-hyped-up demonsation of the situation, which was allowed to stand) is the behaviour of responsible people?
Rolfe.
Barb, for the sixty-fifth time, Wim is no more a vet than you are. Wim is a policeman or customs officer or something like that who says he has taken some sort of course in homoeopathy for animals. Probably that wasn't taught by people with veterinary qualifications either (even if it actually exists at all). He constantly makes the most elementary medical mistakes. He doesn't even know the difference between hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism. As far as I've been able to ascertain, he is not legally allowed to treat animal patients in Holland, so he is either grossly exaggerating (lying about) what he does, or simply breaking the law.
You seem to want real medicine to be able to fix everything. Well, so do we. But we're realists. It's doing pretty well by many standards, but there are still many things that can't really be cured. So if you're saying that alternative medicine is there to amuse or distract these patients, then it will presumably be around for some time to come.
However, can I try to get it through to you one more time that my point is not directed at the homoeopaths who take the cases real medicine has already done all it can for, but the homoeopaths (like Wim and Divina and Albert and even Shirley and yes, Snoopy) who try their best to dissuade people from consulting real doctors, who demonise real medicine to try to frighten people away from it, and who will do and say anything they can to try to prevent even the information that there is a reliable and safe treatment for the condition in question from appearing on their web site.
Snoopy may observe that people come to homoeopathy last, but she's sure doing her damndest to persuade them to change that habit, isn't she? How do you really feel about that?
Do you really, honestly, believe that the constant deletion of my posts giving the facts about conventional treatment for hyperthyroidism (including a direct quote from the published data sheet for methimazole to counter Wim's hysterically-hyped-up demonsation of the situation, which was allowed to stand) is the behaviour of responsible people?
Rolfe.
Rolfe said:
No No Rolfe - I'd like it to be able to fix just a handful of things - but really fix it - not just give symptomatic relief with the risk of side effects. Name the many things that conventional medicine can actually cure which means ture attainment of health withoput the need for meds or continual medical treatment - just what can it cure??? ANd of course I am not saying alt meds are just there to amuse people - come on.
Lisa Simpson
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Barbrae said:
You seem like such a reasonable person, Barb. Do you not get that offering medical advice when one has no medical knowledge is a dangerous thing?
When one doesn't even know the difference between hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism?
Even I know that one.
Rolfe
Adult human female
This thread just for a start. Plenty other examples where you label everyone who honestly questions homoeopaths on the homoeopathy forums as "trolls".Barbrae said:
Now, did you read what I said about Wim? Are you still going to go along with his pretence that he is a vet? Are you still going to hang on his every polypharmacy pronouncement as if it was the Word of God, and sneer at the real vets who try however futilely to point out that for some conditions we really do have effective treatments (and even cures)?
Rolfe.
Rolfe said:
I just don't see it I guess, I don't see any homeopath sitting outside doctors offices telling the patients to come to them instead. Snoopy did one article in a homeopathic emagazine directed towards homeopaths and those who already use homeopathy. How are they doing their damndest to persuade folks to choose homeopathy instead of conventional meds. If that one article or a few posts is her damndest then she isn't very motivated.
Regarding your post about the thyroid medicine. I did actually think that post should have been allowed to stay. However, you guys did it to yourselves - you played games ("wanna vote") talked about "attacking" the board several times - I mean it's pretty much your own doing. I understand the policy of the board based on the history of the Randi crew. Call it guilt by association - YOu yourself just mentioned the company I keep at hpathy - well...
However, should there ever be a situation like the thyroid thread - feel free to email me the medical info and I'd be happy to post it. I think that post would have served to allay the worries of Alphonse regarding treating Sarah conventionally.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, actually, hyperthyroidism for a start.Barbrae said:
Do you really want a full list of the bacterial infections which can be cured by antibiotics? Tuberculosis, syphillis, gonorrhoea, Lyme disease, haemobartonellosis, Campylobacter, oh for Pete's sake fill in the rest yourself.
Autoimmune disease can frequently be permanently cured by chemotherapy. So can many cancers. Even allergies can in some cases be permanently cured by desensitisation therapy.
And in a wider context, vaccines can "cure" a population of a disease so that it no longer exists within that population. This has been achieved for smallpox on a worldwide basis and is close to being achieved for measles.
(And don't knock the attainment of permanent health by regular medication - consider diabetes, Addison's disease, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, hypoparathyroidism, etc. These have been turned from certain death sentences into mere lifestyle inconveniences, and very positive advances are being made towards permanent cures. Can homoeopathy boast anything even remotely comparable?)
It's too late for me to be posting or even thinking straight. But Barb, just think about the sheer mass of successful medical management of desperately serious illness, compared to the absolute non-existence of any objective proof that homoeopathic remedies have any effect at all. Just for a minute.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
He claims to be a classical homoeopath. It's in his sig. (But then NHCoraHSarah claims to be an MFHom in her sig, so I guess sigs can take on anything.)Barbrae said:
And yet you continue not just to stay silent when others lionise Wim for being a qualified vet (and I note that he himself never corrects that one), but to add your praise of his veterinary abilities.
Oh well.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
But you haven't been banned, or had your posts here deleted, have you? I mentioned the company, but if you post sensibly here the most I'll do is sigh in disappointment when I see your posts over there which demonstrate how closed your mind really is.Barbrae said:
The deletion of my hyperthyroidism posts had nothing at all to do with JREF. It was pure disapproval of having anything said in favour of real medicine on a homoeopathy board. Frankly, I was so damn upset at Alphonse's description of Sarah's suffering that I was prepared to get banned as often as it took to get some information across, I even enlisted the help of a homoeopath acquaintance though I know he'd probably be pretty miffed at me, in order to try to get some real information there.
But all JanZy could do was mock my very real concern for the poor cat, and delete my informational posts (including two attempts at presenting just one afternoon's gleanings from the laboratory floor of case examples of cats doing well on real treatment), while Wim laughed and sneered every time the "housecleaning" was performed, and showed no concern at all for the poor animal.
No, I don't think these are very nice people.
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, if they did sit outside doctors' surgeries I think they'd be moved on pretty quickly. Snoopy seems to me to be doing all she can to promote homoeopathy as a first port of call. And indeed, as I remarked earlier, this sort of promotion can be at its most dangerous when aimed at believing homoeopaths.Barbrae said:
To go back to the Addison's situation for a moment. (The whole thread is still there, link in my sig.) Barb, if that case as described had come to you, first, with the patient not having seen a doctor at all, what would you have done? Now, if you yourself were to experience these symptoms, who would you consult first?
Rolfe.
Rolfe
Adult human female
Sorry, posting too late at night. For "measles", read "polio". (Measles will take rather longer.)Rolfe said:
Oh, more cures - scarlet fever, cholera, anyone who wants to continue with the list of infectious diseases beaten into history (which is presumably why Barb doesn't even think about them), please do.
And I'd completely forgotten about all the surgical cures, starting with appendicitis and going on for quite a long time but I really have to be going now....
Is this enough to fulfil your desire for a "handful" of things to be fixed, Barb?
Rolfe.
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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Rolfe: No, no, NO! You don't understand! All these diseases are not CURED [tm], they are only suppressed. The vital force is still malingering, it is just the symptoms that the silly allopaths have made go away, and only temporarily at that. Some day the disase will come back, and much worse. Why, every single one of these patients will DIE one day; proof that their diseases were only suppressed.
Slightly more seriously, this is one of the more circular arguments. From the homeopathic paradigm, "allopathic" treatment, as a matter of definition, cannot cure, only suppress (surgical procedures somewhat excepted), so it becomes a truth that "allopathy" cannot cure.
The stark facts are that patients get well, life expectancies rise dramatically, while we have yet to see homeopathy score a single victory outside the realm of single-case anecdotes.
Hans
Slightly more seriously, this is one of the more circular arguments. From the homeopathic paradigm, "allopathic" treatment, as a matter of definition, cannot cure, only suppress (surgical procedures somewhat excepted), so it becomes a truth that "allopathy" cannot cure.
The stark facts are that patients get well, life expectancies rise dramatically, while we have yet to see homeopathy score a single victory outside the realm of single-case anecdotes.
Hans
Surely you jest. But, *sigh*, I've been down this road with your ilk before and know full well you really believe this nonsense.
Let us start with the simplest of cures: vaccination. It gets out in front of the disease in a natural way. (Yes, I wrote "natural" quite deliberately. Despite alt med quacks claims to the contrary, vaccination is an intelligent use of natural systems. It is, simply, a calculated exposure of the body to enough identifying components of a disease organism to allow the body to catalogue it and file away effective defense against it the next time the body is encounters that organism.)
Now the anti-vaxers love to blather on about improved hygiene and general dietary and sanitary improvements and on and on. They do so blithely ignoring signal events of the last century that inarguably demonstrated the pivotal role of vaccination. The signal event that is perpetually swept under the rug by credophiles is the eradication of smallpox. Eradication. Period. It is absent from our population, and has been for decades. This total absence was achieved by a world-wide WHO initiative of world-wide vaccination. Poof. Gone. (Oh no! Quick! Change the subject! The evil medical establishment is trying to confuse us with facts! EEEEEEEEEK!)
The next bit of evidence stems from one of the last great accomplishments of the anti-vax contingent. They managed to whip up hysteria in several countries in the 1970s that resulted in multiple waves of pertussis epidemics. (Anybody here who had pertussis? Anybody under the age of 30 even know someone who had it? Okay, keep that tally firmly in mind, and then go ask your grandma how many of her schoolmates died from it, or, if she is too young, ask about great-grandma. Now compare her off-the-top-of-her-head tally with yours.)
But, happily, there is an object lesson and the absolute undercutting of this nonsense about medicine curing nothing in the anti-vax fever of the 70s. You can get some background on this from this Jewish World Review article as well as a Skeptical Inquirer article that figured prominently in the first.
But, let me, with the author's permission, highlight the clearest data:
This is the graph of pertussis rates for Japan. Japan stopped mandatory pertussis vaccination in the late 70s due to anti-vax fears and mounting hysteria. Look at the curve rise a few years later. The Japanese watched that curve rise, too, with alarm, and quickly returned to mandatory vaccination. A few years later, the curve fell right back down to the status quo ante botchum.
So, there it is: one of the clearest examples of medicine curing. An extreme example it is at that, for this cure protects not only the individual, but the community around them. This cure does something even greater: it prevents infants (who cannot be vaccinated against pertussis) from being even exposed to pertussis.
[Edited per Capsid's correction, below - wjh]
Capsid
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I'd like to make 2 qualifying statements to Bill's post. First, the idea that improved sanitation lead to reduction in disease is false. Chicken pox has not declined and polio increased as a result of better water quality in the early 1900s.
Second, smallpox was not eradicated by 100% vaccination, the figure was much smaller. This is an argument the anti-vaxers use to try and demonstrate that the smallpox vaccine can not take the credit for the eradication of smallpox. But what really happened was that pockets of smallpox outbreaks were identified and then everyone was "ring" vaccinated in the surrounding region to prevent spread of the virus. It was not necessary to vaccinate everyone to achieve eradication.
Second, smallpox was not eradicated by 100% vaccination, the figure was much smaller. This is an argument the anti-vaxers use to try and demonstrate that the smallpox vaccine can not take the credit for the eradication of smallpox. But what really happened was that pockets of smallpox outbreaks were identified and then everyone was "ring" vaccinated in the surrounding region to prevent spread of the virus. It was not necessary to vaccinate everyone to achieve eradication.
Capsid said:
Capsid,
Thanks for that correction. Somehow, I'd missed that contorted line of argumentation. I've corrected my post so as not to fuel those fires.
IIRC, the original stated goal was 100% vaccination, but was soon modified due to logistics problems and financing issues with various governments. As incidence fell off, the strategies and tactics switched to heightened surveillance and post-infection ring vaccination. But my recollection is that this was adopted only after WHO was fairly certain that basic herd immunity was largely in place world-wide.
Chris Haynes
Perfectly Poisonous Person
Barbrae said:
I think you would be interested (or more amused) by this "theory"... I present it here just as an idea of what goes around Usenet, it has absolutely nothing to due with homeopathy:
http://ascc.healingwell.com/info/gailfaq.htm