Homeopathic Meds FROM MY VET!

[shawmutt]

The day my animals need special magic medicine is the day I put them to sleep.

 

[GreNME]

Homeopet- anxiety relief
http://www.1800petmeds.com/HomeoPet+Anxiety-prod2144.html

Can anyone translate?

Sure can. You're using what we're we've used here at home.

First and foremost, the "homeo" stuff on the name and label are crappy marketing junk. Why this company deigned to use that as their name and "type" of treatment is beyond me, but I guess that's marketing for you. Additionally, the "what this product is used for" part is more marketing speak, since the contents are (very mild) sedatives despite their assurances otherwise.

The ingredients list seem to make it sound like they're using more "medical" types of ingredients than they actually are. The two first ingredients are basically chamomile extract and valerian extract, and as such are mild sedatives and do have side-effects you should be aware of-- for example, chamomile extract contains coumarin, which is a blood thinner, so it's not suggested to give this regularly unless advised to by a doctor.

The doses are about twice as high as necessary, and are just as likely to make a pet sleepy as it is to have any beneficial medical effect. While I wouldn't call my own testing at home of dosages strict science, experimentation has shown that 2-3 drops on a biscuit or the tongue are sufficient (on my 95lb German Shepherd), and the effects take between 15-30 minutes (meaning not immediate). In the description of effects and dosage, they are definitely wildly guessing and exaggerating, since the effects are literally no better than that of someone who has just drank a cup or two of chamomile tea, and to consider that medically significant is stretching the meaning of the word "significant" quite a bit. The mild sedative effect shouldn't even make them tired.

Short translation: a lot of hype about its effects, and a poor use of marketing in its name and description.

 

[Stout]

Thanks GreNME

I will look into the drops on Monday, today we have tho Olympic torch relay and getting around is a real hassle with all the road closures and such. I'll go to "the kinder gentler" vet clinic as they probably have more experience with this sort of thing. They're the clinic who, when I phoned them, told me they didn't carry any insecticide and recommended that I control the flea infestation I was complaining about through cleaning everything. This wasn't an option unfortunately because I have a little kid and he was getting eaten alive. I'm hoping they'll be anti-anti-psychotic and at least have some "alternatives" to suggest. In this case, I will at least try the woo, there's nothing to lose except a bit of cash.

Other than the pulling out her fur, this cat doesn't have any quality of life issues, other than her being really skinny. I asked the vet if I should try to fatten her up and I was told, as well as being told by other siamese cat owners that this is typical. True, she's not the ninja that she used to be but she has no apparent problems getting around and when i compare her to my other cat whose 11 years old, she seems more active than him.

I'm feeding them Iams catfood and the label assures me that it's the good stuff, but I'll ask about vitamin supplements too. One other thing I hear is that siamese cats can go on a lot longer than 16 so I'm expecting she'll be around for some years to come. I will switch to the "specially formulated for older cats" variety next time I buy catfood, which is frequently, because I now have four cats eating here. Only two actually live here and I'll focus on their needs while leaving the freeloaders ( neighbours cats, I don't mind ) to sort it out at home.

TBH, the pulling out her fur isn't all that bad right now. last spring it was horrific, then she stopped, and she's started doing it again, but much, much less aggressively than she was doing before. In fact, last spring I had to but out signs in front of our place telling people that the cat was old and pulling out her own fur due to a few close calls with people trying to "rescue" her.

 

[Dogdoctor]

If I were you I would seriously consider getting a new vet. If you feel you have a good relationship you might request none of that hogwash. Unfortunately some vets do silly bs like that.

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

If I were you I would seriously consider getting a new vet. If you feel you have a good relationship you might request none of that hogwash. Unfortunately some vets do silly bs like that.

It sounds to me like the vet has given up. They don't know what is wrong, so they say "here, use this".

 

[MrQhuest]

30 mg of placebo/ twice daily
take with meals.
Rx

What sounds better? A Vet saying "I have no idea." Or the Vet saying "Here, try this."
I know which one pays better.


MrQ

 

[Amapola]

It sounds to me like the vet has given up. They don't know what is wrong, so they say "here, use this".

I agree. I think in addition the vet is trying to "treat" the owner. As the OP has said, if he did not show up with *SOMETHING* the consequences might have been dire. Sometimes, there just IS nothing useful that can be done.

I think human doctors sometimes face this same dilemma.

 

[Dogdoctor]

It sounds to me like the vet has given up. They don't know what is wrong, so they say "here, use this".

It's a silly treatment because it is made from potentially active ingredients but diluted and never been shown scientifically to be useful for whatever undiagnosed problem the pet has. That shows how vets fool themselves. Try this miracle (fake) drug. If you pet gets better then it worked and if not then maybe we try another miracle (fake) drug. Silliness. I guess maybe the vet isn't sure or is making a guess and trying a treatment which is ok. It's only that the treatment has almost no chance of working and if the cat gets better it is very likely unrelated to the treatment.

 

[George 152]

Change your Vet.
If they have to resort to hokus pokus instead of using tested remedies go elsewhere.

 

[fls]

Sure can. You're using what we're we've used here at home.

First and foremost, the "homeo" stuff on the name and label are crappy marketing junk. Why this company deigned to use that as their name and "type" of treatment is beyond me, but I guess that's marketing for you. Additionally, the "what this product is used for" part is more marketing speak, since the contents are (very mild) sedatives despite their assurances otherwise.

The ingredients list seem to make it sound like they're using more "medical" types of ingredients than they actually are. The two first ingredients are basically chamomile extract and valerian extract, and as such are mild sedatives and do have side-effects you should be aware of-- for example, chamomile extract contains coumarin, which is a blood thinner, so it's not suggested to give this regularly unless advised to by a doctor.

I don't understand why you are under the impression that this treatment contains any molecules of chamomile or valerian?

Linda

 

[Dogdoctor]

30 mg of placebo/ twice daily
take with meals.
Rx

What sounds better? A Vet saying "I have no idea." Or the Vet saying "Here, try this."
I know which one pays better.


MrQ

I don't know about you but if they are going to charge me money for it then it better have at least some reasonable chance of working.

 

[tesscaline]

Thanks GreNME

I will look into the drops on Monday, today we have tho Olympic torch relay and getting around is a real hassle with all the road closures and such. I'll go to "the kinder gentler" vet clinic as they probably have more experience with this sort of thing. They're the clinic who, when I phoned them, told me they didn't carry any insecticide and recommended that I control the flea infestation I was complaining about through cleaning everything. This wasn't an option unfortunately because I have a little kid and he was getting eaten alive. I'm hoping they'll be anti-anti-psychotic and at least have some "alternatives" to suggest. In this case, I will at least try the woo, there's nothing to lose except a bit of cash.

Other than the pulling out her fur, this cat doesn't have any quality of life issues, other than her being really skinny. I asked the vet if I should try to fatten her up and I was told, as well as being told by other siamese cat owners that this is typical. True, she's not the ninja that she used to be but she has no apparent problems getting around and when i compare her to my other cat whose 11 years old, she seems more active than him.

I'm feeding them Iams catfood and the label assures me that it's the good stuff, but I'll ask about vitamin supplements too. One other thing I hear is that siamese cats can go on a lot longer than 16 so I'm expecting she'll be around for some years to come. I will switch to the "specially formulated for older cats" variety next time I buy catfood, which is frequently, because I now have four cats eating here. Only two actually live here and I'll focus on their needs while leaving the freeloaders ( neighbours cats, I don't mind ) to sort it out at home.

TBH, the pulling out her fur isn't all that bad right now. last spring it was horrific, then she stopped, and she's started doing it again, but much, much less aggressively than she was doing before. In fact, last spring I had to but out signs in front of our place telling people that the cat was old and pulling out her own fur due to a few close calls with people trying to "rescue" her.

Do you still have the flea infestation? If so that might actually explain things...

 

[Stout]

Do you still have the flea infestation? If so that might actually explain things...

No, it was an overnight phenomenon. I usually treat the cats in the spring and summer with Advantage but I *assumed* I wouldn't need to in October, which this year was unseasonably warm I'm just north of you, in Victoria.

When she was aggressively pulling out her fur, last April, I thought that too, and when I combed her, i found no evidence of fleas. As of now, her fur pulling is rather minimal, just on her tail but every time I see fur on the carpet I expect it to get worse.

I'll give the Chamomile a try, but the problem is this cat prefers to drink "wild water" meaning she prefers to drink out of the fishpond, the birdbath and puddles on the ground.

 

[Christian Klippel]

The effect it should have on your cat should range between a mild sleepiness to practically nothing at all .....

_Mild_ sleepiness? Sounds like making the cat more active. At least if i compare to my cats, which love to sleep for the most part of the day, and they can go out and in whenever they want (cat door installed).



Greetings,

Chris

 

[jasonpatterson]

First and foremost, the "homeo" stuff on the name and label are crappy marketing junk. Why this company deigned to use that as their name and "type" of treatment is beyond me, but I guess that's marketing for you.

Short translation: a lot of hype about its effects, and a poor use of marketing in its name and description.

But why would they falsely include 6C and 20C on the label? I guess my question is really, "What makes you believe that this isn't a bottle of water?" I've had dogs and cats, and falling asleep within 15-30 minutes is pretty much par for the course.

If it were me, I would double dose the dog and see what happened, or better yet, not dose the dog at all and see what happened, just in case they really have lied.

 

[jsfisher]

If it were me, I would double dose the dog and see what happened, or better yet, not dose the dog at all and see what happened, just in case they really have lied.

My God, man! What are you thinking! This is a homeopathic remedy after all. No dose at all might put the dog in a coma.

 

[foxholeatheist]

The day my animals need special magic medicine is the day I put them to sleep.

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[RationalVetMed]

Chamomile may or may not have sedative properties but at a dose of 1 drop in a bowl of water even the 6c remedy which could actually have some molecules in it is going to do nothing whatsoever. This remedy is ineffective, no question. If you are happy with that and with the idea of a CAVM metaphorical pat on the head and a "there there, never mind" then fine, 'cos that's what you've been given! The vet is hoping it's going to get better on its own, and if it's a seasonal dermatitis it may well do so.

If you want it treated properly you need to go back and say so - there are empirical treatments you could try such as evening primrose oil or a pheromone treatment called Feliway which relieves anxiety. Some people believe that pharmaceutical doses of Valerian compound (obtained from a veterinary supplier, not the human version) can have a sedative or anxiolytic effect although I'm not aware of the research behind that. In cases of feline skin disease there is often a significant stress component so these might be worth thinking about.

Diagnostics which should have been offered are skin scrapes and biopsies; swabs for bacterial culture are less useful tho I did hear from a dermatologist that resistant strains of skin bacteria have been identified recently so it could be that bacteriology is more useful than was believed previously.

The commonest cause of this type of thing is allergic dermatitis and although the treatments above can help such cats usually end up being treated with strategic doses of anti-inflammatories as clinical signs indicate. There are other potential causes such as parasites, hormone problems, liver problems and, rarely, some types of cancer so if the signs persist you need to get this dealt with properly.

Cheers,

Yuri

 

[RationalVetMed]

The vitamin B-1 powder is more complex, because what it actually is, as far as the science is concerned, is a component of an amino acid that, when in deficiency can contribute to some problems that often display as behavioral problems.

I'm not clear what you are saying here, I wasn't aware that thiamine was a component of an amino acid - do you have a reference for this?

A cat can suffer malnutrition eating only dog food, because dog food doesn't have enough protein in it to sustain a cat's diet.

The missing component for cats fed dog diets is taurine, an amino acid which dogs can make for themselves but cats can't. Without it cats suffer problems with eyes and heart.

At 16 years old it's difficult to say, but vets usually tend to not want to take extreme life-preserving measures on pets of very advanced ages because the procedures are often invasive (and thus risky) and quite likely to lower the quality of life, which isn't a positive for the pet itself.

An unpalatable truth, but a truth nevertheless.

Cheers,

Yuris

 

[GreNME]

But why would they falsely include 6C and 20C on the label? I guess my question is really, "What makes you believe that this isn't a bottle of water?" I've had dogs and cats, and falling asleep within 15-30 minutes is pretty much par for the course.

Well, we could contact the manufacturer and see if they care to respond. However, having observed behavior of my own animals (not falling asleep, but calming down under duress) the results do not match their "homeo" claims of dilution and match actually having a concentration of the chemicals they mention.

If it were me, I would double dose the dog and see what happened, or better yet, not dose the dog at all and see what happened, just in case they really have lied.

I've done both to more than one dog of different constitutions and dispensations. So far the results are consistent, which is why I distrust their marketing it as a "homeo" product. That they keep a non-FDA-tested status makes their labeling suspect as far as being trustworthy.

As I've pointed out, though, since the effects don't differ in intensity from that of a person drinking chamomile tea, the expectations put forward by the marketing for the product are unrealistic. It's not going to "cure" anything, the effects aren't "immediate," and if "sleepy pet" is what you're going for feeding them a helping of turkey meat (with tryptophan in it) is going to yield better results (I know this also through testing).