Homeaopatic pill contents

[joesixpack]

This was briefly alluded to before, but I think it's worth emphasizing:

It is common (at least in the US) to mix homeopathic "remedies" with random herbal "remedies", and market the result as homeopathic. So seeing "homeopathic" on the label is no guarantee that you're getting a plain sugar pill! Do not eat a whole bottle unless you're sure!

Yeah, this is seriously creepy when you consider the possibility of what you might be getting. I'm under the impression that there is virtually zero regulation of the supplement industry.

 

[bigred]

...which is why it's so lucrative. Well that and all the naive idiots out there just itching to piss away their money.

 

[Craig B]

The very popular homeopathic remedy Oscillococcinum shows on the box that the ingredients are 100% sugar (0.85 g sucrose, 0.15 g lactose). But the "active" ingredient is bird organs, which is pretty funny since a lot of vegetarians/vegans seem to be into homeopathy (and not into sugar).

The vegans have little to worry about. Per wiki.

The preparation is derived from duck liver and heart, diluted to 200C—a ratio of one part duck offal to 10^400 parts water.

By contrast, there are a mere 10^80 atoms in the universe.

 

[cosmicaug]

Don't forget, not all homeopathic preparations are 200C. For instance, There was an intranasal zinc gluconate gel product under the Zicam brand which was promoted as being homeopathic and which was sold years ago which had enough zinc so that it has been blamed for causing anosmia.

Another thing that I have seen in a product called Tag-Away is the listing of an ingredient both as an active ingredient (using a fairly standard homeopathinc concentration) and as an inactive ingredient (using, I would assume, the sorts of concentrations you might expect from carriers). Unfortunately, the ingredient in question (cedar oil), seems unlikely to be useful for its intended application according to Harriet Hall.

Another related bit of homeopathic bizarreness I have seen is the mixing, in a particular preparation, of different homeopathic dilutions (like having a 30C and a 200C of the same substance). You might also be interested in knowing that there are actually two different ways of diluting homeopathic dilutions: the traditional Hahnemanian way and the Korsakovian way. Perhaps which is the best way may be a great controversy for homeopaths but I think we can rest assured that, if performed correctly, both are equally worthless.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Of course, I know that. But I really want to know what the believers' answer would be.

As noted above, apparently some homeopath big wig says you have to go by what's on the label. That's flabbergasting that anyone would actually accept it.

It IS flabbergasting, but nevertheless true. I was at a homeopathic forum, and it was hotly debated if flight trips might ruin homeopathic remedies (security X-ray and increased cosmic radiation). I asked them: "Why don't you simply take some remedies on an airtrip and test them afterwards?". ... I can't say the replies were constructive.

In fact, some homeopaths have taken considerable trouble to try to argue why homeopathic remedies don't lend themselves to testing. Needless to say without making much sense.

Hans

 

[Information Analyst]

Is it just sugar and some sort of binding agent? Or are there some other ingredients? Some flavoring and citric acid would make them taste like Smarties (Canadians, please note, I'm referring to the US version of Smarties, not M&Ms, so keep your candy ethnocentricis, in check please) which could only be an improvement.

I think you'll find that most of the rest of the world share the Canadian view on Smarties, which aren't M&Ms either.

 

[bigred]

It IS flabbergasting, but nevertheless true. I was at a homeopathic forum, and it was hotly debated if flight trips might ruin homeopathic remedies (security X-ray and increased cosmic radiation). I asked them: "Why don't you simply take some remedies on an airtrip and test them afterwards?". ... I can't say the replies were constructive.

In fact, some homeopaths have taken considerable trouble to try to argue why homeopathic remedies don't lend themselves to testing. Needless to say without making much sense.

Hans

Stupidity from alt med groupies? Dude I'm all no way!

 

[jimtron]

The vegans have little to worry about. Per wiki. By contrast, there are a mere 10^80 atoms in the universe.

Right. But I think many folks who buy Oscillo would be unpleasantly surprised to hear that Boiron kills animals to make it. And the active ingredient, according to Boiron, is animal organs (euphemistically named, and non-existent). My point is that it might be good to share this information with users of this product. For some people the scientific arguments don't mean much, but letting them know that animals are killed to make a product that is 100 percent sugar--that might have a bit more impact.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Right. But I think many folks who buy Oscillo would be unpleasantly surprised to hear that Boiron kills animals to make it. And the active ingredient, according to Boiron, is animal organs (euphemistically named, and non-existent). My point is that it might be good to share this information with users of this product. For some people the scientific arguments don't mean much, but letting them know that animals are killed to make a product that is 100 percent sugar--that might have a bit more impact.

Duck liver. However, considering the dilution, all that is ever needed is a single duck liver. In fact, that duck has been jokingly referred to as "the million dollar duck".

There is, of course, a duck liver somewhere in the history of the drug, but it is diluted and stoced in some intermediate dilution, and they can just go from there, virtually forever.


Hans

 

[Craig B]

Duck liver. However, considering the dilution, all that is ever needed is a single duck liver. In fact, that duck has been jokingly referred to as "the million dollar duck".

There is, of course, a duck liver somewhere in the history of the drug, but it is diluted and stoced in some intermediate dilution, and they can just go from there, virtually forever.
Hans

There are probably more duck liver molecules floating about the environment at random than there are in the homeopathic medicine, given the super-astronomical figures of dilution.

 

[Madalch]

There are probably more duck liver molecules floating about the environment at random than there are in the homeopathic medicine, given the super-astronomical figures of dilution.

This is what really ticks me off about such "preparations"- what the duck is a molecule of duck liver, anyway? Duck livers contain proteins (huge organic molecules), water, fats (medium-sized organic molecules), salt (consists of sodium cations and chloride anions), vitamin A (large organic molecules), cholesterol (large organic molecule), riboflavin, thiamin, duck DNA, duck RNA, ATP, and thousands of other compounds. If you get down (like a duck) to the level where you've got a million molecules left, how many of those will be of each? Will it be the same for each sample? If you're down to twenty molecules, what are the odds that it will be anything other than water molecules? Will a pill containing 19 duck-derived water molecules and 1 riboflavin molecule be any different from a pill that contains 18 duck-derived water molecules and 2 cholesterol molecules?

 

[Madalch]

Okay...using data from http://www.livestrong.com/article/342046-duck-liver-nutrition/ and from http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/782/2...

If you make a "mother tincture" of duck liver by tossing a standard 44 g serving of duck liver into a litre of water and magically making the entire thing homogeneous (so no insoluble proteins precipitating out, etc), you get lots of molecules...most of them of water, but also lots of fat, sodium ions, potassium ions, etc. If you do an 8C dilution (or 16X), you are down to one molecule of vitamin B12, along with dozens, hundred, thousands or tens of thousands of particles of other substances. In a 10C dilution, you have a 0.01% chance of keeping that molecule of B12, half a % chance of getting a riboflavin, folic acid or thiamin molecule (or an atom of selenium), a ten % chance of getting a molecule of niacin, vitamin A, or an atom of zinc; a 25% chance of an atom of copper, an atom each of calcium and iron, four molecules of cholesterol, and about fifteen sodium ions and potassium ions. Along with 15 molecules of fat, 23 atoms of phosphorus (probably as phosphate ions) and 4500 molecules of water from the duck liver.

At a 12C dilution, you have a 45% chance of having a single molecule of water from the original duck liver in a litre of solution, and less than 1% chance each of getting a fat molecule, sodium ion, phosphate ion, or other particle.

So, yes, you have a chance of getting a molecule from the liver in the pill. But it's probably a water molecule. How is this different from all the water molecules in the ordinary tap water that have passed not only through duck livers, but duck kidneys and bladders as well?

 

[Kumar]

As already mentioned, real homeopathic pills contain only lactose, where a highly diluted solution has been dripped on. Most of the dilutions in use preclude any active ingredient.

However, since homeopathic remedies have a free pass in many government regulation bodies (including the FDA), because they are considered to be in themselves harmless, the label "Homeopathic" is slapped on a lot of stuff, so they may contain various substances in significant amounts: Taste correction, herbal concoctions, even steroids and antibiotics!

Hans

First, since science is not yet final, it can not be taken for sure that remedies do not contain anything curative. We have to wait and watch till science become final or if remedies are not beneficials, we may have to wait till it die by itself due to it.

Second, intentional cheatings should be least in homeopathy. Hence it is odd to think that these remedies are polluted intentionaly with odd substances as you indicated. Still, exceptions do not justify that common odd practices exists in it. Exceptions can be there everywhere for some vested intrests and that do not invaidate any system.

 

[cosmicaug]

First, since science is not yet final, it can not be taken for sure that remedies do not contain anything curative. We have to wait and watch till science become final or if remedies are not beneficials, we may have to wait till it die by itself due to it.

By "science is not yet final" are you addressing various not very homeopathic remedies which have the homeopathic label slapped on or are suggesting that the science of high homeopathic dilutions (such as the typical 200CK of Oscillococcinum) is not yet final?

 

[xtifr]

First, since science is not yet final, it can not be taken for sure that remedies do not contain anything curative.

Since science is not yet final, it cannot be taken for sure that falling off the Empire State Building is not curative. Nevertheless, you'd have to be incredibly stupid to jump off in hopes of curing your cold. Nearly as stupid as someone who thinks some 19th century superstition is going to cure his cold.

Your endless, tedious quest to find some possible mechanism whereby homeopathy might work is pointless, since it's been proven that homeopathy doesn't work any better than plain sugar pill. Even if there were a way it could work, it still doesn't! There's no point in hunting for a cause when there's no effect.

Second, intentional cheatings should be least in homeopathy.

Why? Ignorant, superstitious people have always been a great source of revenue for conmen and tricksters. People who don't demand proof (or even suggestive evidence) that their medicines work are just asking to be fleeced.

 

[pakeha]

...It is common (at least in the US) to mix homeopathic "remedies" with random herbal "remedies", and market the result as homeopathic. So seeing "homeopathic" on the label is no guarantee that you're getting a plain sugar pill! Do not eat a whole bottle unless you're sure!

Don't forget, not all homeopathic preparations are 200C. For instance, There was an intranasal zinc gluconate gel product under the Zicam brand which was promoted as being homeopathic and which was sold years ago which had enough zinc so that it has been blamed for causing anosmia.

Another thing that I have seen in a product called Tag-Away is the listing of an ingredient both as an active ingredient (using a fairly standard homeopathinc concentration) and as an inactive ingredient (using, I would assume, the sorts of concentrations you might expect from carriers). Unfortunately, the ingredient in question (cedar oil), seems unlikely to be useful for its intended application according to Harriet Hall. ...

I'd like to think these warnings serve to alert the readers here to the very real dangers of trusting in the scruples of the homeopathic products merchandising.

 

[pakeha]

This is what really ticks me off about such "preparations"- what the duck is a molecule of duck liver, anyway? Duck livers contain proteins (huge organic molecules), water, fats (medium-sized organic molecules), salt (consists of sodium cations and chloride anions), vitamin A (large organic molecules), cholesterol (large organic molecule), riboflavin, thiamin, duck DNA, duck RNA, ATP, and thousands of other compounds. If you get down (like a duck) to the level where you've got a million molecules left, how many of those will be of each? Will it be the same for each sample? If you're down to twenty molecules, what are the odds that it will be anything other than water molecules? Will a pill containing 19 duck-derived water molecules and 1 riboflavin molecule be any different from a pill that contains 18 duck-derived water molecules and 2 cholesterol molecules?

Do you reckon homeopath practitioners know a liver isn't made up of liver molecules?

...Second, intentional cheatings should be least in homeopathy. Hence it is odd to think that these remedies are polluted intentionaly with odd substances as you indicated. Still, exceptions do not justify that common odd practices exists in it. Exceptions can be there everywhere for some vested intrests and that do not invaidate any system.

Why do you think that, Kumar?
Someone prepared to sell 'specially' shaken water as a cure for anything is hardly going to baulk at adding some other product to the bottle/sugar pill to give the buyer a bit more bang for their buck.

 

[MRC_Hans]

First, since science is not yet final, it can not be taken for sure that remedies do not contain anything curative. We have to wait and watch till science become final or if remedies are not beneficials, we may have to wait till it die by itself due to it.

No, you are wrong. Science can say for sure that nothing is in the remedies, and their effects have been tested, with negative results.

We should not let people continue to be cheated.

Second, intentional cheatings should be least in homeopathy.

Why?

Hence it is odd to think that these remedies are polluted intentionaly with odd substances as you indicated.

Kumar, this is a fact. There are idealists, of course, but mainly people are in alternative meds for the easy money. They have no inhibitions at all.

Hans

 

[Craig B]

Why ever not?
We know, for example, that even to a professional homeopath, it's impossible to tell the difference between two homeopathic products except by reading the labels on the containers.
What do you think that means, Kumar?

If I may answer instead of Kumar: it probably means you would benefit more from swallowing the labels on the containers than from taking the pills in the containers.

 

[pakeha]