Holy Land's Miracle: the River Jordan Reversed its Flow!

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Maybe he meant that the splash made some of the river momentarily flow backwards. The bigger the splash the bigger the flow? In any case, I've heard bigger lame-ass claims to miracles than that. Like life sprouting from dead material spontaneously. Now that's lame-ass big time! IMHO

You are aware that scientists have created RNA enzymes which breed, compete, and evolve right? I think that says a little something about the validity of your statement.

But yes, incredibly lame-ass claim. Just like an immortal magician speaking light and the universe into creation.

 

[S.F.]

Christ was ressurected by his heavenly Father. It didn't occur by itself.

Magic man dun' it.

Passing responsability to an invisible being does not make your statement any less bogus.

You are aware that scientists have created RNA enzymes which breed, compete, and evolve right?

Before our friend here start saying yeees, but scientists did it!, he should know that everything the scientists did is something that could perfectly well happen in nature.

Also:

this study, appearing online this week in JBC, demonstrated how ancient RNA joined together to reach a biologically relevant length.http://www.geneticarchaeology.com/Research/A_simple_fusion_to_jump-start_evolution.asp

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Also:

this study, appearing online this week in JBC, demonstrated how ancient RNA joined together to reach a biologically relevant length.http://www.geneticarchaeology.com/Research/A_simple_fusion_to_jump-start_evolution.asp

Right; if it can be done in the lab it can be done in nature. What they've proven is that it is in fact possible. There are still some holes to fill in but, as Radrook has wrongly claimed previously, we're filling in those holes at a fine pace.

Thanks for responding by the way, I meant to ask someone else to do it since Rad has me on his ignore list I think.

 

[Radrook]

Magic man dun' it.

In case you are unaware, which it's more than obvious that you are, the practice of magic is considered a sin in the Bible. Not that you should care only that you should know in order for your accusations not to be woefully bogus.

Passing responsability to an invisible being does not make your statement any less bogus.

Neither does your unsolicited proclamation that you think it bogus make it so despite your fervently hopeful belief that it does. But if you chant mindlessly enough, I'm sure you'll eventually unconvince yourself.

BTW
I consider the scientific claims you are making slippery-slope

 

[joobz]

In case you are unaware, which it's more than obvious that you are, the practice of magic is considered a sin in the Bible. Not that you should care only that you should know in order for your accusations not to be woefully bogus.

So, doing magic* is bad unless god does the magic?

Or does god use the Nixon explanation,
"It's not magic when I do it!"

*Magic as defined as acheiving an outcome through supernatural means.

 

[Hokulele]

So, doing magic* is bad unless god does the magic?

Or does god use the Nixon explanation,
"It's not magic when I do it!"

*Magic as defined as acheiving an outcome through supernatural means.

I am guessing it would be the first one. After all, Radrook's god is a jealous god...

 

[Madalch]

I am guessing it would be the first one. After all, Radrook's god is a jealous god...

Nah, it's the second one. If a person does it, it's magic. If God does it, or one of his Chosen Followers/Disciples/Saints/Incarnations/Sons does it, it's a miracle.

Sheesh- didn't you ever play D&D? Wizards do magic, clerics do religion.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

In case you are unaware, which it's more than obvious that you are, the practice of magic is considered a sin in the Bible. Not that you should care only that you should know in order for your accusations not to be woefully bogus.

You're only hurting your case here. Then again, it's no surprise, because we all know that you believe it's not murder when your God slaughters children, since everyone is promised resurrection*. Therefore it's not sinful when God and his clerics perform magic--I'm sorry, miracles. When you pull special pleading, you can justify anything!

Neither does your unsolicited proclamation that you think it bogus make it so despite your fervently hopeful belief that it does. But if you chant mindlessly enough, I'm sure you'll eventually unconvince yourself.

I was going to ask you for evidence to support your claim that Jesus rose from the dead like a zombie, but then I remembered that when it comes to encounters with brain-eating zombies, there's nothing more reliable than a firsthand witness.


* = Yet Jerry Falwell is still dead.

 

[Kthulhut Fhtagn]

Can someone repost this? Radrook has me on his ignore list.

In case you are unaware, which it's more than obvious that you are, the practice of magic is considered a sin in the Bible. Not that you should care only that you should know in order for your accusations not to be woefully bogus.

Definition of magic:

S: magic, thaumaturgy (any art that invokes supernatural powers)
S: magic trick, conjuring trick, trick, magic, legerdemain, conjuration, thaumaturgy, illusion, deception (an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers)

Relevant part underlined. So what we have here is the claim that magic is only magic if performed by beings that are not expressly defined as God and/or one of his clergy or prophets. In which case its termed as what? Miracles? And if you term it differently then why should it be termed differently? Because it’s more convenient to explain it away? If God has claimed that using magic is a sin* then why is he not a hypocrite for using it himself? Afterall we're talking about a being who used an incantation to speak the world into existence**.

Neither does your unsolicited proclamation that you think it bogus make it so despite your fervently hopeful belief that it does. But if you chant mindlessly enough, I'm sure you'll eventually unconvince yourself.

The burden of proof is on you, and you have a lot of work to do. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

BTW
I consider the scientific claims you are making slippery-slope

How so? We've provided evidence now that abiogenesis is in fact entirely possible and scientifically plausible. What was it you said?

Neither does your unsolicited proclamation that you think it bogus make it so despite your fervently hopeful belief that it does. But if you chant mindlessly enough, I'm sure you'll eventually unconvince yourself.

* I say claimed because God, assuming he, she, it, they exist has yet to make the case for why magic should be a sin. And no "God said so" is not a reason.

** Genesis 1-3 "Then God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light."

 

[temporalillusion]

Pfft, backwards river.. here's REAL magic, a helicopter that can fly without turning its rotor!

 

[maxfrost]

Isn't a part of a miracle that it has a point? The Red Sea parted so that the Jews could escape Egypt. The loaves and fishes multiplied so that hundreds could be fed. The Jordan flows backwards so that--? During one of the earthquakes along the New Madrid Fault in the early 19th century, the Mississippi reportedly flowed upstream, at least locally. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to locate a video of that event on YouTube.

 

[rakovsky]

it needs to be pointed out that both Israel and Jordan draw huge amounts of water from the river for drinking purposes. Both countries have facilities for pumping out the water, and the Jordan is a tiny little stream, so it would not be difficult to temporarily alter the direction of flow. This is highly plausible. So much water is now being taken from the Jordan that it no longer reaches its southern terminus in the Dead Sea. The Dead Sea has been shrinking for decades as a result. It now consists of two bodies of water almost completely cut off from each other.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ex.php?topic=4362.0+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Found a page which mentions the Jordan as one of many rivers prone to reverse flow at high tide at certain times of year - the Severn in the UK is another one.
https://www.facebook.com/RichardDawkinsFoundation/posts/582687545138640

Unlike many rivers, the sea that the Jordan flows into, the Dead Sea, is not connected to the ocean, and is basically a saltwater lake. I am surprised to hear the theory that tides could be affecting the Jordan that is not flowing into the ocean, unlike, say, the Thames or the southern end of the Mississippi, which are flowing there and I expect to be affected by tides.

(Map taken from Wikipedia, Free-use)

Amos Nur in New Scientist (1991 July 6 pp. 39-42) attributed the stopping of the Jordan River (Joshua 3) and the falling of the walls of Jericho (Joshua 6) to earthquakes.

In 1927 an earthquake measuring 6.5 on the Richter scale had its epicentre under a plain 15 kilometres north of Jericho. Over thirty destructive quakes have hit the region since 117 BC. Josephus, for example, mentions the destruction of the town of Qumran (of Dead Sea scroll fame) in 31 BC with 10,000 dead.

Joshua chapter 3 records that the Jordan River stopped flowing and this enabled the Israelites to easily cross over into the Promised Land.

The 1927 quake caused a mud-slide which stopped the river. This also happened in 1906, 1834, 1546, 1534, 1267 and 1160.

Probably, therefore, a timely earthquake explains the "miracle" of the Jordan ceasing its flow for the Israelites. The Bible says the Israelites set up twelve stones to mark the location as a memorial. (Joshua 4)
http://ed5015.tripod.com/BSevenMiraclesExplained58.htm

Psalm 114

2. Judah became His sanctuary, Israel, His dominion.
3. The sea looked and fled; The Jordan turned back.

About the dividing of the Jordan and stopping the flow in the Book of Joshua, chp 3:

13 And it shall come to pass, as soon as the soles of the feet of the priests that bear the ark of the Lord, the Lord of all the earth, shall rest in the waters of Jordan, that the waters of Jordan shall be cut off from the waters that come down from above; and they shall stand upon an heap.

14 And it came to pass, when the people removed from their tents, to pass over Jordan, and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people;

15 And as they that bare the ark were come unto Jordan, and the feet of the priests that bare the ark were dipped in the brim of the water, (for Jordan overfloweth all his banks all the time of harvest,)

16 That the waters which came down from above stood and rose up upon an heap very far from the city Adam, that is beside Zaretan: and those that came down toward the sea of the plain, even the salt sea, failed, and were cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

17 And the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord stood firm on dry ground in the midst of Jordan, and all the Israelites passed over on dry ground, until all the people were passed clean over Jordan.

From CNN International:

On January 2006, I had the opportunity to witness the occurrence of the miracle and along with more than 4,000 pilgrims from various nations, observed in awe this Great and Unique miracle, which was recorded with a cell phone camera by one of the pilgrims we knew...

During the ceremony which was led by Theophilus the Third, the Patriarch of Jerusalem (who was standing on the same bank with us, that is on Israel's side), and by one of Jordan's Orthodox priests (whom we were able to see on the other bank of the river, on the Jordanian side) the waters continue to flow as usual toward the right. However, as soon as the Patriarch and the Jordanian priest dropped the Cross into the river, chanting "En Iorthani Vaptizomenou Sou Kyrie" (that means "During your Baptism in Jordan, Lord"), the waters started mysteriously to bubble in places. The bubbling then spread, and the river developped two currents (!), one running to the right and another running to the left, with the two currents finally merging into each other! Eventually, after a few minutes, the miracle was completed! The new current was steadily flowing! ...

This miraculous occurrence lasted (more or less) as long as the two Crosses remained in the river. Right after the Crosses were taken out, the Jordan started reverting to its original course (to the right) until the change was complete.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-40252

 

[Dr. Keith]

That's quite a resurrection.

 

[Drs_Res]

Pfft, backwards river.. here's REAL magic, a helicopter that can fly without turning its rotor!

My favorite comment from the video:

rotor.exe Has Stopped Working

 

[Thor 2]

This must be the most lame ass "miracle" ever:
Holy Land's Miracle: the River Jordan Reversed its Flow!
w w w ireport.com/docs/DOC-40252

They claim that when the Orthodox priest throws a cross into the river, the river <b>actually changes course and flows backwards</b>!

They even got a YouTube video that <b>shows nothining of the kind</b>.
The people go "wooo" but as far as I can see the river flows in the same direction.
w w w youtube.com/watch?v=s2sf8w6F0Ao

One would think that if there was the slightest chance that this phenomena was real there would be sophisticated equipment installed to measure river flow.

But, but, but, I can hear the faithful saying "God cannot be tempted or tested" or words to that effect. God didn't stop his act because someone made a dodgy video of it though did he?

 

[rakovsky]

Some Orthodox miracles:
Jordan river reversing
Annual cloud on Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration feast
Holy Fire autolit at Holy Sepulchre
Healings with Oil
Turin Shroud / Edessa's mandylion
Apparitions of Jesus, Mary, and saints
Miracle-working and crying ikons
Prophecies
Casting out demons

Any I'm missing?

 

[Thor 2]

Some Orthodox miracles:
Jordan river reversing
Annual cloud on Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration feast
Holy Fire autolit at Holy Sepulchre
Healings with Oil
Turin Shroud / Edessa's mandylion
Apparitions of Jesus, Mary, and saints
Miracle-working and crying ikons
Prophecies
Casting out demons

Any I'm missing?

The priest turning the wine and wafers into the actual body and blood of Jesus.

 

[welshdean]

Some Orthodox miracles:
Jordan river reversing
Annual cloud on Mt. Tabor at the Transfiguration feast
Holy Fire autolit at Holy Sepulchre
Healings with Oil
Turin Shroud / Edessa's mandylion
Apparitions of Jesus, Mary, and saints
Miracle-working and crying ikons
Prophecies
Casting out demons

Any I'm missing?

Everything on your list is bollocks!
Complete and utter ...

 

[rakovsky]

The priest turning the wine and wafers into the actual body and blood of Jesus.

Yes, that's kind of like holy water, they are substances that if consumed can lead to paranormal effects in some accounts.

 

[Thor 2]

Yes, that's kind of like holy water, they are substances that if consumed can lead to paranormal effects in some accounts.

Consuming holy water!

Yes you could get all kind of nasty effects from that I imagine. Especially if you drank the stuff that everybody has been dipping their grubby fingers in.