Holocaust

[Aquila]

I'm not sure whether this is the best place to put this, but I've been having a conversation with some freemasons over in the "members only" part of this forum,

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64460&page=4

and would like to bring it into the regular part of the forum, so everyone can see it.

Stimulated by that discussion, I recently found some websites which describe Hitler's obession with the occult, especially the German Thule society.

http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html

and

http://www.threeworldwars.com/world-war-2/adolf-hitler.htm

and

http://www.shoaheducation.com/secret.html

So what do you guys think?

 

[SuperSquirrel]

Wow, I never thought that my question would get so many people worked up. I basically wanted a book to tell me what happened, and even have some survivor stories. Being part German myself I always got teased about it growing up once people heard that my great grandma came from German. Just thought it would be nice to learn something about it.

 

[timhau]

If the personal level is interesting, after Anne Frank, one might try Primo Levi's two memoirs (in the US, they're published as Survival in Auschwitz, and The Reawakening.

I found The Warsaw Diaries of Adam Czerniakov pretty interesting too.

In addition to these, I'd like to put in a recommendation for Fateless by Imre Kertész. It is fiction, but it's deeply rooted in the author's own experiences

 

[Beady]

Wow, I never thought that my question would get so many people worked up. I basically wanted a book to tell me what happened, and even have some survivor stories. Being part German myself I always got teased about it growing up once people heard that my great grandma came from German. Just thought it would be nice to learn something about it.

This place will teach you enough to keep you awake at night. I don't know where you are, but it's definitely worth a visit.

http://www.ushmm.org/

 

[MG1962]

I was going to start a new thread, but thought I would tack on here, and see what happens. I have a couple of questions

When do historians consider the Holocaust to have begun. I have seen 1933 and 1939 given as dates - while staying with the generally accepted figure of 5.7 million deaths

Is the figure for the Holocaust only include those who were subjected to the death camps and concentration camps - Or do the activites of the death squads and SS units in the Soviet Union get included?

 

[drkitten]

I was going to start a new thread, but thought I would tack on here, and see what happens. I have a couple of questions

When do historians consider the Holocaust to have begun. I have seen 1933 and 1939 given as dates - while staying with the generally accepted figure of 5.7 million deaths

The most common event I have seen for the "start" of the Holocaust was Krystallnacht, "The Night of Broken Glass" (9-10 November 1938). Although there were of course many anti-Jewish events in the decade or so prior (for example, passage of the Nuremberg Laws), this was the first instance of large-scale, state-sponsored anti-Semitic violence. Before, most of the anti-Semitic policies involved economic and social limitations, now violence was on the table.

ETA: I.e. it doesn't matter that much, since there weren't many deaths due to anti-Semitic activity between 1933-1938. Even Krystallnacht itself resulted in fewer than 100 deaths (but was the first large-scale shipment to concentration camps). When you're looking at killing 5+ million, 100 more or less is unfortunately just a bit of statistical noise.

Is the figure for the Holocaust only include those who were subjected to the death camps and concentration camps - Or do the activites of the death squads and SS units in the Soviet Union get included?

The death squads and SS units definitely get included.

 

[MG1962]

The most common event I have seen for the "start" of the Holocaust was Krystallnacht, "The Night of Broken Glass" (9-10 November 1938). Although there were of course many anti-Jewish events in the decade or so prior (for example, passage of the Nuremberg Laws), this was the first instance of large-scale, state-sponsored anti-Semitic violence. Before, most of the anti-Semitic policies involved economic and social limitations, now violence was on the table.

ETA: I.e. it doesn't matter that much, since there weren't many deaths due to anti-Semitic activity between 1933-1938. Even Krystallnacht itself resulted in fewer than 100 deaths (but was the first large-scale shipment to concentration camps). When you're looking at killing 5+ million, 100 more or less is unfortunately just a bit of statistical noise.

Okay thanks for that - I had always had the impression that after '33 Once the NAZIs had finished with the Communists and Catholics, they started on the Jews well before '38 in pretty big numbers.

The reason I asked about the death squads - most tallies I see that come to 5.7 million usually only attribute 1 million Jews in Russia, yet the death squads own paper work point to at least 1.1 million, plus SS activity which seems to have an agreed value of around 300,000. So that blows almost a 400,00 hole in the accepted value, which to me should be closer to the 6 million mark

 

[Oliver]

Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen is a good one. It examines the reasons ordinary Germans would do the things they did.

Oh, please educate us about the difference between Germans, Humans and Caucasians when it comes to genocide -aka- Holocaust...

 

[ddt]

The reason I asked about the death squads - most tallies I see that come to 5.7 million usually only attribute 1 million Jews in Russia, yet the death squads own paper work point to at least 1.1 million, plus SS activity which seems to have an agreed value of around 300,000. So that blows almost a 400,00 hole in the accepted value, which to me should be closer to the 6 million mark

With the death squads, you mean the Einsatzgruppen^WP, I presume?

The operated not only in Russia, but also in Poland and in the Baltic countries. The latter may not be included in the 1 million figure for Russia. This table from wiki with numbers from Dawidowicz suggests your 1 million figure for Russia does not include victims from Belarus or the Ukraine either (so Russia indeed means nowadays Russia or the then Russian RSFSR).

 

[drkitten]

The reason I asked about the death squads - most tallies I see that come to 5.7 million usually only attribute 1 million Jews in Russia, yet the death squads own paper work point to at least 1.1 million, plus SS activity which seems to have an agreed value of around 300,000. So that blows almost a 400,00 hole in the accepted value, which to me should be closer to the 6 million mark

My understanding -- and I am far from a Holocaust specialist -- is that many of the "Russian" deaths get lumped under the Polish category when you do the overall deaths by nationality, as they were Polish refugees. The spot at which the SS would report your death is not necessarily the same as the spot where you had lived prior to the war....

 

[Ian Osborne]

The most common event I have seen for the "start" of the Holocaust was Krystallnacht, "The Night of Broken Glass" (9-10 November 1938).

I would have suggested 20th January 1942, after The Wannsee Conference. It was then the Nazis' systematic persecution and violence turned into the outright genocide which defined the Holocaust.

 

[MG1962]

Thanks ddt and drkitten - both explanations make sense. When I think of Russia I think of the whole Soviet Union - Clearly this was why the numbers did not add up

 

[MaGZ]

I was going to start a new thread, but thought I would tack on here, and see what happens. I have a couple of questions

When do historians consider the Holocaust to have begun. I have seen 1933 and 1939 given as dates - while staying with the generally accepted figure of 5.7 million deaths

Is the figure for the Holocaust only include those who were subjected to the death camps and concentration camps - Or do the activites of the death squads and SS units in the Soviet Union get included?

The Holocaust began around 1970.

Before that there was no reference to it in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

 

[MaGZ]

The most common event I have seen for the "start" of the Holocaust was Krystallnacht, "The Night of Broken Glass" (9-10 November 1938). Although there were of course many anti-Jewish events in the decade or so prior (for example, passage of the Nuremberg Laws), this was the first instance of large-scale, state-sponsored anti-Semitic violence. Before, most of the anti-Semitic policies involved economic and social limitations, now violence was on the table.

ETA: I.e. it doesn't matter that much, since there weren't many deaths due to anti-Semitic activity between 1933-1938. Even Krystallnacht itself resulted in fewer than 100 deaths (but was the first large-scale shipment to concentration camps). When you're looking at killing 5+ million, 100 more or less is unfortunately just a bit of statistical noise.

The death squads and SS units definitely get included.

Krystallnacht was a one time thing. The German people were angry over the murder of their ambassador in Paris by a Jew assassin. Modern history today overlooks this fact. Hitler intervened to stop the attacks on Jewish shops.

 

[bruto]

Oh, please educate us about the difference between Germans, Humans and Caucasians when it comes to genocide -aka- Holocaust...

Presumably you mean that it could happen to anybody, and that genocide is not unique to Germans. True enough, but in this case the holocaust in question is not being discussed in the abstract, but as a particular event that occurred. Since the holocaust in question was perpetrated by Germans, it does not seem particularly odd or eye-rollingly inappropriate for an author to discuss how the relevant Germans came to accept and participate in it.

It may be true that the factors that lead people to accept and participate in genocide are universal, but the instances of genocide are not. To dismiss the idea of discussing them at the particular level seems short-sighted. Of course, the book in question may or may not be any good - I haven't read it - but I don't see why that should disqualify the idea of analyzing the holocaust in context.

 

[drkitten]

Krystallnacht was a one time thing. The German people were angry over the murder of their ambassador in Paris by a Jew assassin. Modern history today overlooks this fact. Hitler intervened to stop the attacks on Jewish shops.

... according to the convicted liar David Irving; the proof was amply demonstrated in H.M. courts that, in fact, Hitler did not intervene to stop the attacks. Actually, he encouraged them by demanding that the police NOT intervene in the attacks except in cases of arson where Aryan-owned property might be at risk.

Basically, every sentence in your post above, MaGZ, is a lie. I know this. You know this. The regular readers of this forum know this. But just on the off chance that a casual reader drifts in, I thought I would point out yet another deliberate untruth by a neo-Nazi Holocaust denier.

 

[mrbaracuda]

the NAZIs

Sorry, what are NAZIs? I only know Nazis.

 

[Gregory]

The Holocaust began around 1970.

Before that there was no reference to it in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

How often do you think encyclopedias and dictionaries are updated, MaGZ? The revised fourteenth edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica, for example, was published from 1933–1973. So ... yes. The first reference to the Holocaust in that encyclopedia would have had to have been in the 1970's. Proving ...?

Besides, so what? There were many, many books on the subject prior to 1970. What makes encyclopedias and dictionaries so special?

 

[ddt]

The Holocaust began around 1970.

Ah, the resident Holocaust denier comes again with his lies.

Here is the truth about the Holocaust, from the horse's poultry farmer's mouth:



The October 4, 1943, Posen/Poznan speech.

 

[abenja1]

The Holocaust began around 1970.

Before that there was no reference to it in any dictionary or encyclopedia.

So MAGZ (the coward) you would like to get off topic? Okay, I shall too. You have yet to answer my question: Do you think it is normal to deny historically proven facts?