"Holocaust is Jews own religious fault"

[Slayhamlet]

I think something that's overlooked is that godawful phrase 'Chosen People'. If you are an early Christian, a Gentile convert for example, however much your religious leaders may assure you that your faith in Jesus will get you to this paradise called Heaven, that Jews were no longer as favoured as they were, surely there would always be this nagging doubt that they were after all God's Chosen and you, you obviously weren't.

It's there in black and white in the Old Testament. Your God's word.

This doesn't matter if Christianity remains a small cult. That it essentially becomes the state religion of an empire (and succesive Western empires), such that word of its teachings spreads throughout the known world, together with its attendant prejudices, is the Jewish tragedy.

Combine that with the exclusivity of Jewish diaspora communities (i.e not 'marrying out') and you have a combination of jealousy and ignorance that ultimately leads to visceral hatred in individuals and groups.

Well, there might have been some resentment on the part of Christians that Jews called themselves the chosen people, but it's not like Christians hadn't appropriated that title for themselves (supersessionism and all that), and I doubt Jews in predominantly Christian societies were wont to proclaim such outside the synagogue. I think the more deadly ideological position was that Jews were held to have rejected Christ by their very association with Judaism, and were therefore, according to (then) Catholic dogma, outside of God's grace. Not only that, but since the Gospels implicate certain Jews in the crucifixion of Christ, by continuing to reject Christ the Jews were believed to be the spiritual descendants of those who had actually killed him, hence the accusation of Deicide. Add to this the occasional and almost always unsubstantiated charges of blasphemy or sacrilege against the Christian religion, like host desecration, and you have a very precarious situation for the Jews of any Christian nation.

 

[bookitty]

Funny, I had a similar conversation with an acquaintance. Except it was about the Hispanic illegal aliens in California. He explained that, while he doesn't have anything them or their culture, they would be more accepted if they tried harder to assimilate. There was quite a long list of what this assimilation would entail, followed by a short lecture on why this was not racist.

 

[Debaser]

Well, there might have been some resentment on the part of Christians that Jews called themselves the chosen people, but it's not like Christians hadn't appropriated that title for themselves (supersessionism and all that), and I doubt Jews in predominantly Christian societies were wont to proclaim such outside the synagogue.

But that's the thing, they wouldn't need to proclaim it because every Christian would know it (so long as they knew the Old Testament).

It's like the Inuit being a translation of 'The People' (I believe it's close). That could sound quite arrogant, that they consider themselves THE People, THE Humans*. However, since they are not the antecedents of a religious movement or empire the wider population is generally unaware and doesn't much care what they call themselves.

That the Old Testament forms, or has come to form, a foundation for many Christians means that what was essentially a self agrandising phrase a small group of religionists applied to themselves, became known to a much larger population, and became a source of extreme jealousy for some.





* I am aware I am ascribing to the translation an idea which is not necessarily reflected in the original meaning.

 

[Pardalis]

Any news from your friend Oliver?

Oliver, are you going to respond?

Did you talk to your friend since the OP, and what has he said? Have you changed your mind yourself? What's going on?

This is kind of an important topic.

 

[Pardalis]

bump for Oliver

 

[Elizabeth I]

bump for Oliver

You're a persistent type, I'll give you that.

 

[Pardalis]

You're a persistent type, I'll give you that.

Oliver is a genuinely nice guy, I hate to see him being slowly brainwashed by this hate ideology of his "friends".

 

[Darth Rotor]

Nobody deserves to be treated as the Jews were in the Holocaust.

That's my sentiment as well, however, "deserve" has naught to do with it. Power and its pursuit has led people to do many strange, and sometimes vile, things.

I wonder how common renouncing Judaism was? (Though I understand the point others have made--the violence directed against Jews was not about religion.)

I understand it that way as well.

 

[McHrozni]

Yesterday I had a conversation about the whole Middle East mess with a colleague and we also talked about Israel as a part of it. When the Holocaust came up as an "accelerator" for immigration into Palestine, he argued that "the Holocaust probably never had happened if the Jews wouldn't have sticked to their religion and instead, integrated themselves into European societies so they wouldn't have been the scapegoat for centuries".

Now that striked me as a loaded argument against Religion, Judaism in particular, but I have no Idea how much of that POV is accurate. Sure, from History we know that Jewish People in strong Christian Societies [and other religious communities] were seen as "different" and probably in many cases in a negative meaning, but would integration have avoided the Shoah, I don't know.

Your thoughts?

[And I might add that my collegue isn't an Anti-Semite from what he argued besides that particular POV]

It's utter nonsense. You can't fault people for believing what they want to believe, and living the way they live, provided they don't cause harm to others. The problem of Jewish integration wasn't just their fault, but also the fault of the European and other populations at the time, the Church also played a significant role.

This is in addition to what was already said about Holocaust being racially-driven, not religiously driven, mind you.

McHrozni

 

[Thunder]

Those religious Jews who claim that we Jews deserved the Holocaust because we were not religious enough, are just showing their hatred towards secular Jews. And they are showing their insane stupidity.

 

[Pardalis]

So Oliver, any news from your coworker?

 

[Oliver]

So Oliver, any news from your coworker?

Not yet, but Religion certainly is to blame anyway, is it not?

 

[Pardalis]

Not yet, but Religion certainly is to blame anyway, is it not?

No it's not, and certainly not Judaism.
It's been months since you started this thread Oliver, you haven't learned a thing.

 

[Pardalis]

I blame Germany's school system.

It's disgusting that you are a German and haven't learned from the Holocaust's lessons. A population of idiots let it happen in the thirties and forties, and I hope you are not representative of your generation, because it would mean that another generation of those dangerous mindless idiots exists.

 

[Pardalis]

Not yet, but Religion certainly is to blame anyway, is it not?

So it really doesn't matter that it was your co-worker who said the Holocaust was the "Jews own religious fault", because you agree with him right?

So your co-worker probably doesn't even exist, or his existence is irrelevant, because it's actually you who holds this insane belief?

 

[Darth Rotor]

A thought: A lot of Jews left Germany in the thirties. What is (to me) surprising is that more didn't, but perhaps they considered themselves German Jews, with emphasis on German, and that led to a sense of belonging (like most people) that wasn't reciprocated. I understand that some nations (to include the US) had less than welcoming immigration policies. Was it lack of opportunity that left so many stranded in the face if rising societal hostility?

DR

 

[Paulhoff]

A thought: A lot of Jews left Germany in the thirties. What is (to me) surprising is that more didn't, but perhaps they considered themselves German Jews, with emphasis on German, and that led to a sense of belonging (like most people) that wasn't reciprocated. I understand that some nations (to include the US) had less than welcoming immigration policies. Was it lack of opportunity that left so many stranded in the face if rising societal hostility?

DR

Not knowing what would happen for one, Money for another.

There was a ship that bought jews to America and was turned away for a third.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

Paul

 

[Darth Rotor]

Not knowing what would happen for one
Money for another.
There was a ship that bought jews to America and was turned away for a third.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

The story of the St Louis is pretty well known. America wasn't the only possible destination. However, not seeing how far it might (and eventually did) go is certainly a good explanation. Fortune telling is not a common skill.

DR

 

[ddt]

The story of the St Louis is pretty well known. America wasn't the only possible destination. However, not seeing how far it might (and eventually did) go is certainly a good explanation. Fortune telling is not a common skill.

America wasn't the only country that didn't open up its borders. Holland, for instance, closed its borders December 1938. The German Jews who had fled over the border were interned in Camp Westerbork, which was originally built for this purpose. The construction costs were borne by the Dutch Jewish community.

In general, a lot of German Jews didn't have the means or possibility to get away in the first place. And those who went, had to leave every penny and possession behind.

 

[Jono]

The story of the St Louis is pretty well known. America wasn't the only possible destination. However, not seeing how far it might (and eventually did) go is certainly a good explanation. Fortune telling is not a common skill.

DR

Yes the situation wasn't percieved as dire by all people in Germany, wether they were jews or not. However, as a curiosa, I always found what Moses Hess wrote to have been interestingly 'prophetic':

These politicians and patriots forget, that if Germany were to conquer France and Italy to-day, it would only result in placing the entire German people under police law; and in depriving the Jews of their civil rights, in a worse manner than after the Way of Liberation, when the only reward granted by the Germans to their Jewish brethren in arms was exclusion from civil life.
...
The age of race dominance is at an end. Even the smallest people, whether it belongs to the Germanic or Romance, Slavic or Finnic, Celtic or Semitic races, as soon as it advances its claims to a place among the historical nations, will find sympathetic supporters in the powerful civilized Western nations. Like the patriots of other unfortunate nations, the German 'patriots can attain their aim only by means of a friendly alliance with the progressive and powerful nations of the world. But if they continue to conjure themselves, as well as the German people, with the might and glory of the "German Sword," they will only add to the old unpardonable mistakes, grave new ones; they will only play into the hands of the reaction, and drag all Germany along with them.
Rome and Jerusalem: The Last National Question, 1862.