Holocaust Denial.

[Dave1001]

He´s one of these Conspiracy-Theorists who are not able to explain themselves. It might have to do with the things they´ve learned during growing up within an anti-semitic environment - i still don´t know much about these type of people...

Cheers,
Oliver

It's this type use of "anti-semites" to manufacture majoritarian sensibilities that raises my eyebrows (I'm not addressing this to you personally Oliver, as much as something I notice generally in discourse). It's so Orwellian and indicates to me that future totalitarianism is likely to creep from that direction, rather from neo-nazis or such fringe elements.

 

[Oliver]

It's this type use of "anti-semites" to manufacture majoritarian sensibilities that make me want to hurl. It's so Orwellian and indicates to me that future totalitarianism is likely to creep from that direction, rather from neo-nazis or such fringe elements.

You may want to find out more about these people by writing him a letter - since my english is not that good to get him to the point to explain me his thoughts about his "Holo-Hoax-thinking"...

Mailto:

Eric Hufschmid
PainfulQuestions@aol.com

Regards,
Oliver

 

[CurtC]

Here's the 'reason' for it.

"IN ORDER to reconcile the wartime 1944 photograph with the postwar "eye-witness testimony" of smoke billowing from Crematorium building chimneys, the historians and scholars of the Simon Wiesenthal Center have helpfully inserted smoke into the photograph, thereby avoiding injurious puzzlement among school children and other innocent visitors to its Website who might otherwise fall foul of the lies of the Revisionists."

The wording on that statement makes it sound like it came from the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Can you show me where they said that?

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

I've done some research on this. While I don't support holocaust denial, here are a few of the arguments from those who do.

1) The smokestacks at auschwitz, which were apparently part of the ovens where they burned jews to death, were added after the war ended.

2) The Zyklon B gas which was used to kill jews in the 'gas showers' was actually used to delouse their clothing to keep the population of the camps healthy

3) Several propoganda images showing dead jews have been obviously doctored.

4) Census of the world jew population from before and after the war shows a definite increase in Jews worldwide, which one might not expect if 6 million of them were killed in between the census.

5) The concentration camps did not have adequate supply of fuel to burn as many bodies as is claimed.

6) They weren't all jews. I've heard the claim that the occupants of the camps consisted of more or less equal parts of criminals, hobos, jews, gays, blacks, etc.

As for why they would want to fake the holocaust, the prevailing theory among deniers is that it creates an atmosphere of victimization, eg, sympathy and pity, that the jews could exploit to get their way.

Please don't call me a denier just because I've read this stuff. I'm just trying to answer the question.

Additional claims I have seen:
* no proof of orders of the "final solution"
* the fact that the death tolls have been revised over the years brings in to question any values put forth

 

[G-K-4]

Hufschmid Eaten for Lunch by Loosers!

Eric Hufschmid is so far out there that other conspiracists don't like him. I had the recent opportunity to hear some of the infighting from a "Patriot" radio show hosted by a guy named John Stadtmiller.

Hufschmid came across as a whiner who wants his pet theory to be at the center of the 9/11 "truth movement". He wrote an essay calling for investigations of folks like Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas. http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html Stadtmiller was also criticised, so he put Hufschmid on his show with Avery and Bermas.

It was hilarious to hear Dylan Avery questioning a conspiracy theory, demanding evidence, and trying to be a little rational!

MP3's:
First Hour: http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller1.mp3
Second Hour:
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller2.mp3

I also liked the fact that Stadtmiller stated at least twice that 9/11 "truth" is important to the Christian Patriot Movement.

Readers here at JREF might also be interested to know that Stadtmiller has interviewed Jason Bermas, Dylan Avery, and "Killtown" as recently as September 6, 2006; Avery, Bermas, and Korey Rowe on August 30; and Christopher Bollyn on July 10.

And for your information, Oliver (since you are from out of town), the "Patriot Movement" is an ultra-reactionary, nativist political tendency in the United States. They are known for hatred of the Federal government, desire to establish county-level authoritarian regimes under their personal control, and belief in a long series of obscure conspiracy theories, among many other things.
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_2.html#P204_52991

 

[Oliver]

Eric Hufschmid is so far out there that other conspiracists don't like him. I had the recent opportunity to hear some of the infighting from a "Patriot" radio show hosted by a guy named John Stadtmiller.

Hufschmid came across as a whiner who wants his pet theory to be at the center of the 9/11 "truth movement". He wrote an essay calling for investigations of folks like Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas. http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-Rowe-Bermas-Hufschmid-phonecall.html Stadtmiller was also criticised, so he put Hufschmid on his show with Avery and Bermas.

It was hilarious to hear Dylan Avery questioning a conspiracy theory, demanding evidence, and trying to be a little rational!

MP3's:
First Hour: http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller1.mp3
Second Hour:
http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Stadt/0607/20060714_Fri_Stadtmiller2.mp3

I also liked the fact that Stadtmiller stated at least twice that 9/11 "truth" is important to the Christian Patriot Movement.

Readers here at JREF might also be interested to know that Stadtmiller has interviewed Jason Bermas, Dylan Avery, and "Killtown" as recently as September 6, 2006; Avery, Bermas, and Korey Rowe on August 30; and Christopher Bollyn on July 10.

And for your information, Oliver (since you are from out of town), the "Patriot Movement" is an ultra-reactionary, nativist political tendency in the United States. They are known for hatred of the Federal government, desire to establish county-level authoritarian regimes under their personal control, and belief in a long series of obscure conspiracy theories, among many other things.
http://www.publiceye.org/apocalyptic/Dances_with_Devils_2.html#P204_52991

Thank you, G-K-4 - the "patriot-movement" was an unknown organization to me - do they have a website, too?

I still love this radio-show because it shows so clearly how stupid they are...

Cheers,
Oliver :")

 

[bjb]

What mechanism is that? (I see more then one mechanism...)

Yes, there are several mechanisms at work with Holocaust deniers. I'm glad you want to know how these people think because it is important for all of us to know how these people think because they are not alone in their method of deceptions. Shermer uses two chapters in his book to describe the Holocaust deniers but I am too lazy to summarize them here. You all should already have his book "Why People Believe Strange Things" but if you're interested mainly in Holocaust deniers, he's written another book called "Denying History". Also, here's a slideshow I found from my alma mater, UCSB, on the techniques of Holocaust denial. Slide #6 entitled "Strategies of Denial" has a good summary of Holocaust denial techniques, and they are very similar to the techniques used by other conspiracy theorists.

 

[drkitten]

Let me just clarify something.
I was referring to a specific doctored photo.

You may have seen it. It showed a group of prisoners, and in the background, smoke billowing from a chimney. In the original photo, there was no smoke coming from the chimney, so it was edited. Here's the 'reason' for it.

"IN ORDER to reconcile the wartime 1944 photograph with the postwar "eye-witness testimony" of smoke billowing from Crematorium building chimneys, the historians and scholars of the Simon Wiesenthal Center have helpfully inserted smoke into the photograph, thereby avoiding injurious puzzlement among school children and other innocent visitors to its Website who might otherwise fall foul of the lies of the Revisionists."

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/fake/SWCsmokeFake.html

Er, fpp.co.uk? Focal Point Press? David Irving's imprint and web site?

You may not be familiar with Mr. Irving and his history. But he has a long and legally-established history of falsifying documents in support of his Holocaust denial.

In short -- he lies.

And so the claim that "the historians and scholars of the Simon Wiesenthal Center have helpfully inserted smoke into the photograph" carries no credibility with me or with anyone else who's familiar with his body of work.

Essentially, this organization said, "We know the holocaust happened, but it doesn't really look like it in this picture, so lets add some burning jews so the children wont get confused."

Er, no. Someone with a long history of telling lies about Jewish organizations said that this organization said (and did) that. But I'd want independent confirmation before I believed anything he said.

 

[Oliver]

Yes, there are several mechanisms at work with Holocaust deniers. I'm glad you want to know how these people think because it is important for all of us to know how these people think because they are not alone in their method of deceptions. Shermer uses two chapters in his book to describe the Holocaust deniers but I am too lazy to summarize them here. You all should already have his book "Why People Believe Strange Things" but if you're interested mainly in Holocaust deniers, he's written another book called "Denying History". Also, here's a slideshow I found from my alma mater, UCSB, on the techniques of Holocaust denial. Slide #6 entitled "Strategies of Denial" has a good summary of Holocaust denial techniques, and they are very similar to the techniques used by other conspiracy theorists.

Mhmmm - what are these techniques described in these books?

I personally know these types of deniers:

The ones who just cant believe it: "Our Gov wouldn´t do such a thing!" (Harmless)
The ones who do not know the facts: "This is so stupid to believe in this crap!" (Harmless and naive)
and the ones who know the truth and spread their hate anyway:
"The holohoax was faked, no matter what you believe in!". (Dangerous because not naively)

I personnally hate the last ones at most - they know the truth but they don´t care.....

Cheers,
Oliver, Germany

 

[bjb]

Er, no. Someone with a long history of telling lies about Jewish organizations said that this organization said (and did) that. But I'd want independent confirmation before I believed anything he said.

Well, he says the doctored photo came from the Wiesenthal website but the links are dead. The smoke is very poorly faked. I've done a better job faking clouds with Paint. It is easier for me to believe a Holocaust denier created a fake picture himself than to believe the Wiesenthal people came up with such a poorly altered picture. Besides, those smokestacks were added after the war, weren't they?

 

[Oliver]

Well, he says the doctored photo came from the Wiesenthal website but the links are dead. The smoke is very poorly faked. I've done a better job faking clouds with Paint. It is easier for me to believe a Holocaust denier created a fake picture himself than to believe the Wiesenthal people came up with such a poorly altered picture. Besides, those smokestacks were added after the war, weren't they?

It´s part of my job to edit photos - i don´t believe in this crap at all.... Proof me wrong...

 

[grunion]

Like all conspiracy theories, Holocaust Denial starts with the gut-level belief of a conspiracy and then through a combination of cherry-picking and concocting evidence and ignoring evidence to the contrary paints what can seem to a naive observer to be a complete picture.

In this case the "gut-level belief" is the centuries-old scam that there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world. It has been perpetuated through the generations with various hoaxes, like blame for the crucifixion of Jesus, the "Blood Libel" hoax, the Protocols, and now Holocaust Denial. Facts are concocted to align with and bolster the specious arguments created by irrelevant factoids taken out of historical context.

It all comes from the warped agenda to single out a minority as a sinister social force.

Seeing as there is no "truth" agenda in the first place it is futile to argue logic with these people. In fact I believe it is harmful to do so in a public forum because that just gives them a stage to spout more lies and possibly indoctrinate other naive people.

 

[Oliver]

*snip*
In this case the "gut-level belief" is the centuries-old scam that there is a Jewish conspiracy to control the world.
*snip*

As a german i didn´t know much about zionism - even if i have studied my german history - this has nothing to do with the holocaust. So where did it come from?....

 

[grunion]

As a german i didn´t know much about zionism - even if i have studied my german history - this has nothing to do with the holocaust. So where did it come from?....

If I recall my history correctly, Zionism officially started in the 1890's by Theodor Herzl as a political movement in response to the Palestinian Mandate which was England's way of absolving itself of the flummox it had made of the Middle East when it no longer had the might or political will to reign over the dominion it had created there. Sounds kinda familiar.

Essentially, Jews were not factored into the equation.

There were quite a few Jewish communities in Palestine before that, who generally coexisted with local Moslems (with some exceptions) but Zionism was an organized movement to bring European Jews to Palestine that started building momentum in the 1920's much to the dismay of the local Muftis, who consequentially aligned with the Nazis in the 30's.

I think one minor link can be made between Zionism and the Holocaust, that is the Dreyfus case. Here was a French Jew who was exiled for treason, the primary evidence brought before the court being that on account of his Jewishness he could not be loyal to France. This confirmed for many Jews that a Jewish homeland in Palestine was essential. For European anti-Semites it confirmed that Jews were secretly plotting their overthrow.

 

[EGarrett]

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Hufschmid-Dylan-Korey-Jason.mp3

Eric's voice is the one that's clear and live, the other three guys are on the phone. About 13 minutes in, they start getting their conspiracy theories tangled. Hilarious.

 

[Peephole]

Some are extremists - but most of them are stupid kids like the ones in the "9/11-denial-movement". Thanks god we fight them very hard so they don´t have a big voice here.

Isn't the NPD to get a couple seats in parliament?

 

[Oliver]

Isn't the NPD to get a couple seats in parliament?

They tried to get seats within the parlament but they don´t have enough support to do so and on the other hand there are attempts to forbid the NPD-Party... Muhawawaw

 

[Peephole]

My father was in the US Army in Europe during WWII, and was the official photographer for his platoon or regiment or some such group.

When I was a young child I discovered a shoebox in my parent's closet. In that box there were literally hundreds of photographs that would make your skin crawl. I saw human bodies stacked 8 or 10 high in which every single rib was clearly visible. The skin on their faces was drawn tight across the cheekbones. You could clearly see that each arm and leg had two bones in the lower half. It was evident that the femur is a very large bone.

As I say, there were hundreds of these photos. My sister says that our father took these photos at Dachau. I know for damn sure that none of them was faked. I certainly do not know the ethnicity or the sexual orientation of these brutally murdered people, but I do have a clear image of the kinds of things human beings will do for the glory of Church and State.

I do not believe that what happened in Nazi Germany was a vast departure from the misdeeds of other campaigns of organized violence conducted in the name of Holy Causes. But I did learn at a very young age that it is very important to be careful about which ideas you let get inside your head.

I wish I was in possession of these photos so that I could pass them along to an appropriate organization that would preserve them for historical reference.

It was an unique event though. No other genocide was ever so systematic. And it happened in a Western democracy.

Did your father ever publish or release those pictures? You should donate it to a holocaust museum or something if he didn't.

 

[Peephole]

They tried to get seats within the parlament but they don´t have enough support to do so and on the other hand there are attempts to forbid the NPD-Party... Muhawawaw

But they did get representatives in a regional state, right?

Here in Belgium the neo-nazi party just suffered a small defeat.

 

[Peephole]

How does this work? What mechanism do they use to explain the videos of the dead bodies and what reason do they give for Jewish people wanting to fake the Holocaust?

One tactic they often use is that they refer to earlier deniers to justify their own "research", even if they have been proven wrong.

Can anyone think of an other movement which does exactly the same?

While there is an ideological basis for many Deniers, there is also a substantial body of people that are simply misinformed CTers.

Actually, in Belgium at least, most deniers are all concentrated in the far right.