Holocaust denial: is it conspiracy?
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Oliver
Penultimate Amazing
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The holocaust is based on facts.
The Creator is based on scriptual fiction.
Don't mix facts with opinion-based fiction.
Also, any conspiracy theories based on non-Jesus opinions won't get you elected. Think about it before you reply.
NWO Sentryman
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Em there ia a good website called Nizkor, which has it from the horses mouth as to the reason for holocaust denial,
Chaos
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The point of the whole thing is, it is forbidden to publicly make claims that
1) have been proven over and over and ****ing over again to be false, beyond the possibility of doubt by anyone with two brain cells to rub together
AND
2) falsely accuse MILLIONS of people of complicity in the greatest scam in history and at the same time turn the worst monsters of the 20th century into innocent victims.
Which facts, Oliver?
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.
For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.
8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.
(I will not erase my answer, but I will say that the fact of holocaust is not questioned. Question is: why can't I deny holocaust? As I understand, everything can be questioned)
Only number of poor people who has died.
But all facts that crematories can't "deal" with such numbers of slaughtered humans.
For example:
Biggest death camp had 8 crematories. Most advanced crematory today can "handle" 25 dead bodies in 24 hours.
8 x 25 x 365 x (max 3 years) = 219'000
and we're told that 1,6 million of humans are burnt there.
I have some doubts.
(I will not erase my answer, but I will say that the fact of holocaust is not questioned. Question is: why can't I deny holocaust? As I understand, everything can be questioned)
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Oliver
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erm...
There have been christian god deniers for 2000 years and do we send them to prisons in 21-st century?
(English isn't my first nor my second language)
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Holocaust denial is explicitly or implicitly illegal in 13 countries: Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic, France, Germany, Israel, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Romania, and Switzerland. Slovakia made Holocaust denial a crime in late 2001 but repealed the legislation in May 2005. Spain decriminalized Holocaust denial in October 2007. Italy rejected a draft Holocaust denial law proposing a prison sentence of up to four years in 2007, the Netherlands rejected a draft law proposing a maximum sentence of one year in 2006 and before this the United Kingdom twice rejected a Holocaust denial law. Denmark and Sweden also have rejected Holocaust denial legislation. (from wikipedia: holocaust denial)
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headscratcher4
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Doubts you may have, but that just shows a distinct lack of curiosity as to facts. For example, your little straw man above. It is well known, documented and witnessed that huge numbers of bodies were first burried in mass pits, later disintered and burnt in open fire pits. In short no one reciting the facts of the holocaust is claiming that the crematoria at, for example, Auchwitz were responsible for the elimination of the dead bodies -- they did have a part in the exersize, but as noted other methods were also involved.
But once again, in the face of what will appear to be your "reasonable" denile -- your argument is going to eventually become this: the burden of evidence (witnesses, documents, photos, etc) is simply too great, it must be evidence of deciet, whereas the absense of evidence is actually evidence that the holocaust didn't happen. The convoluted nature of such thinking is, essentially, magical.
On a personal note, I happen to disagree with laws that limit speech and make holocaust denile illegal. Given the emence ammount of proof of the Nazi extermination program -- one, broader than simply Jews but also geared toward the enslavement and elimination of Slavs, Gypsies and other "inferior" "races" -- there is no real need. Holocaust denires -- like creationists -- are ultimately left to mine the gaps as opposed to any sort of big-picture theory of what happened or any truly compelling re-interpretation of facts.
On the other hand, in countries that were directly affected by Nazi policies and Nazi barbarity, it is understandable if not excusable. The fact remains that holocaust denile is first and formost not a historical method of factual interpretation -- i.e. it doesn't start from the documents, the testimony, the pictures, etc. and work forward into a coherent interpration of the facts that eliminates mass murder as the logical conclusion -- instead it starts with: the Jews are lying. The Jews have manipulated the Facts. Governments are helping the Jews to manipulate, distort or "create" the facts. Ergo: the holocaust as a fact is a creation of the Jews.
As I said, like creationism, it starts with a premis that no set of facts seems to be able to shake. Indeed, the only way a denirer can conclude that the holocaust didn't happen is to deny (not re-interpret) most facts. Writen orders, testimony, train logs, engineering schmatics, camps on the ground, etc. all must be dismissed, minimized or ignored in order to jimmy history to reach the desired conclusion.
Perspective
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Well, as soon as the crematories couldn't handle more bodies, they would dig large pits outside the campbuildings, and just throw the bodies into those, pour gasoline over them, and burn them there. They had various ways of getting rid of bodies.
I've been to many of the camps in the last 10 years, and it's almost the same everywhere.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
As with any other law, the legislators in the countries in question have ruled that the cost to society of permitting a specific act to be committed is greater than the cost to society of forbidding that act. In the specific case of holocaust denial, the aim is presumably to deny a specific platform to those who seek to rehabilitate the public image of National Socialism. The latter cost, in this case, is a clear infringement of the right to free speech. The perceived former cost may be inferred from the history of Germany, 1933-1945. While many here disagree with the decision, it's at worst understandable in context.
No to both, but far more so to the second. Just evaluate the evidence, and the conclusion is inevitable in the first case.
I see that you are disingenuously asking one question in the title, then assuming an answer to that question in order to pose a different one in the text. You're then going on to present a completely specious argument against the reality of the Holocaust (why should the capability of a modern crematorium, designed to give a dignified funeral to individuals, bear any relation to that of an industrialised mass-murder operation?). Therefore, it appears that your intention in this thread is to deny the Holocaust under the guise of discussing the status of Holocaust denial.
Starting off a discussion of Holocaust denial with such brazen intellectual dishonesty, though almost universally practised by Holocaust deniers, is unlikely to improve their public image.
I'd also just like to point out, once again, that there seem to be only two camps here: those who recognise that the Holocaust happened more or less as determined by the overwhelming majority of reputable historians, and those who claim that fewer, or perhaps no, victims were actually killed. If there were a legitimate debate with real uncertainty, one would expect a third position, that the number of Holocaust victims has been significantly underestimated. The absence of this group is a strong indicator that in fact there is no real controversy, simply a concerted effort by right-wing political extremists to lie about the severity of the Holocaust in order to clean up their image.
Dave
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Edges
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Bolding mine.
But why do you think that is? Consider the difference in purpose behind the death camp crematoriums and a normal crematorium. The Nazis were not concerned with keeping the ashes of their victims separated, whereas normal crematoriums are usually providing a service for bereaved family members who would like to scatter their loved ones ashes somewhere. With that in mind, the death camps crematoriums could handle a much greater volume of bodies. And, as others have pointed out, when they couldn't, mass graves were utilized.
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geni
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Modern crematoria are not designed to deal with large numbers at high speed but have other objective. A more legitimate comparision would be the large scale descrution of animal remains. UK managed to dispose of 10 million in a few months in 2001.
Meaningless since you are talking about completely different designs.
What country are you in?
As it should be but the penalty should be much much more severe2. Holocaust denial isn't a conspiracy theory but it is just stupidity and I would say a fear of something (in this case jews) that is unknown and in alot of respects it is one based on jealousy. Those who think it is a valid thought to "revise" the number of dead to a lower value are just as much scum as those who deny the holocaust outright.
headscratcher4
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And, as I tried to point out, it is meaningless to try to quantify the scope of the holocaust using assumed capacities of industrial crematoria at some death camps. Crematoria were not the only...or possibly the broadest...method of disposing of bodies....open pit burning was responsible for the disposal of many....for example.
In short, he has posed a meaningless question that fails on so many levels...from factual to logical...and thinks that he's somehow mastered history. Sad really.
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
[Holocaust denial mode]
They dug pits for the bodies? Pits for bodies are called graves. You're asking us to believe that in the middle of a war, the Germans wasted thousands of years worth of manpower to dig six million graves?
[/Holocaust denial mode]
Hey, it's not any sillier than the original version...
They dug pits for the bodies? Pits for bodies are called graves. You're asking us to believe that in the middle of a war, the Germans wasted thousands of years worth of manpower to dig six million graves?
[/Holocaust denial mode]
Hey, it's not any sillier than the original version...
vho.org/GB/Books/hoh/index.html#Contents
It's the "denials" side of the history.
I don't say it is the true, but always examine essays of opponents.
My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?
It's the "denials" side of the history.
I don't say it is the true, but always examine essays of opponents.
My concern still is: why denial of holocaust is criminal act in more than 10 countries in Europe?
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
Because it is seen as an attempt to make a far-right wing, racist agenda appear palatable, and in those countries it is seen as less damaging to democracy simply to ban it. And again, this isn't the question you asked in the thread title.
Dave
timhau
NWO Litter Technician
Does the fact that some countries have criminalized Holocaust denial have any bearing on whether or not the Holocaust is real?
No.
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