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Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

No secret. It is free to anyone.
Thanks, Red Baron Farms, but you are actually confirming that
So far you are hinting that it is a deep, dark secret only known to Savory and his chosen few :rolleyes:!
The chosen few are his trainees.

You missed that nowhere in your quotes do the totally subjective guesses give a number for the Savory brittleness :jaw-dropp!
Those quotes are a repeat of the vague guesstimates that we already know are the basis of the Savory brittleness scale.

And then there is the fact that this is an training manual from a web site selling a product. That is not science, Red Baron Farms.

The question remains:
Red Baron Farms: Can you cite an official definition of the Savory brittleness scale that is complete enough so that anyone (for example you or me) can use it to calculate/estimate/guess a value?
That is the point of a scientific scale - you do not have to pay someone to take a course in using a thermometer :D!
A scientific scale just needs the ability to make the appropriate measurements and plug them into an equation. Or at least to make observations and match them to detailed descriptions - see the descriptive part of the Beaufort Wind Scale.
 
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BTW, HM has not been shown to work. Not in any way that counts. Your "millions of acres" don't mean squat if you don't have proper controls in place.
Actually there has been plenty of trials. I posted multiple times. It gets routinely ignored. For me the most compelling is this one:

Convincing evidence Notice the first picture the tailings are split, one side with HM and the other side not. The side without even has irrigation!:eek: HM is quite literally being trialed side by side against the absolute best conventional BMP available that money can buy. It would be quite difficult to find a more difficult test scenario. Tailings are as bad as it gets, and the technique is consistent enough that so far it hasn't failed for him ever on many sites all over the West with mine tailings problems. It is consistent enough that mining companies use it. They have a financial and legal stake. Not likely to go for something not proven to work consistently.

Of course in their arrogance, many in the entrenched academia dismiss this sort of evidence out of hand, even though there is a control. Terry Wheeler is not a Phd, and hasn't published his evidence in a scientific journal as far as I know. It doesn't mean Wheeler isn't educated. He is a graduate of the University of Arizona and holds a Bachelor of Science Degree with majors in Animal Science and Range/Watershed Management, plus completed graduate work in those areas as well as Agricultural Economics, Horticulture and Administration. He is an accredited professional ecologist with a lot of experience, over 50 years experience domestic and international, including working with leading universities, energy and mining corporations, industry associations, the United States’ federal, state and local governments, the governments of several other nations, and numerous village and tribal authorities. So ranchers and farmers and even mining companies may accept such evidence (I do), but many in academia either ignore it completely or call it "anecdotal". Mayor Terence O. Wheeler
 
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Savory brittleness scale:
"Think about where you live:"
* "the amount of rainfall you get" (lots)
* "the level of humidity in the air" (moderate)
* "how it is distributed throughout the year" (mostly in winter)
* "see moss growing on brick buildings" (on some)
* "recently fallen logs already partially decayed" (yes)
* "living organisms moving about on the soil surface" (of course :eek:!)
So I live in a non-brittle environment but ....
* "tall stands of dead gray-colored grass (in summer yes)
* "logs that have been lying in the same place for years but have not changed significantly in appearance" (yes)
* "only two or three types of plants with large areas of bare ground" (yes)
So I live in a brittle environment :jaw-dropp!
 
It is growing at an astounding rate, partly because it is so effective, and partly because the USDA NRCS and SARE are actively educating HM.
Red Baron Farms, what is your evidence that the USDA NRCS and SARE actively educating HM (i.e. Savory's methodology that seemingly only he teaches)?

"the results are consistent" - what results and what are they consistent with?
That changing the management of degraded land improved the land - well Doh :eye-poppi.

Show us where Savory's HM has been conclusively shown to be more effective than other land management methods.
ETA: There is at least one small sample study that showed that high capacity methods are worse then adaptive methods:
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie

Citations please to the "millions of acres throughout the world that it has been shown to be effective", Red Baron Farms?

P.S.
Red Baron Farms (28th May 2014): Evidence for HM is actually very popular and widely used in NZ and Australia?.

Red Baron Farms: Evidence that "dry" grassland will turn to desert if the herds of herbivores are removed (and the reverse)?

Red Baron Farms: Evidence for the "The australian megafauna decreased, in brittle areas that ecological change resulted in desert, but in areas that were not brittle, change still happened, but didn't result in desertification" claim?
Please not based on any rather silly "deserts formed thus the land was brittle". But the rational: here is an area that was "brittle", megafauna decreased then desert formed.
 
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Red Baron Farms, what is your evidence that the USDA NRCS and SARE actively educating HM (i.e. Savory's methodology that seemingly only he teaches)?

I already posted enough evidence of that you shouldn't even question it. Spoilered in case others don't want to see it again.
This from USDA SARE:


USDA NRCS:


Not to mention major grants to HMI
Fiscal year 2009 recipients include:

...
Holistic Management International, Albuquerque, N.M., $639,301 Link
...

And also funding for NCATT ATTRA who has many resources to educate people in HM. Holistic Management: A Whole-Farm Decision Making Framework

Show us where Savory's HM has been conclusively shown to be more effective than other land management methods.
ETA: There is at least one small sample study that showed that high capacity methods are worse then adaptive methods:
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie

Then when you say silly things like this I have even more confirmation you are simply not paying attention. Please at least read the abstract of the study.
evaluated the impact of multi-paddock (MP) grazing at a high stocking rate compared to light continuous (LC) and heavy continuous (HC) grazing
That "adaptive" method is taken directly from HM. It isn't HM in it's entirety, just a study of certain biophysical effects claimed by Savory. Since the adaptive is at high capacity, your statement "sample study that showed that high capacity methods are worse then adaptive methods" doesn't make sense.
 
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I already posted enough evidence of that you shouldn't even question it.
YouTube videos that are not USDA NRCS and SARE actively educating HM (i.e. Savoy's methodology that seemingly only he teaches) are not evidence, Red Baron Farms jaw-dropp!
There is the possibility that these YouTube videos mention HM. But lying about the content is bad: The first video is a presentation by a farmer.
However the second video is presented by someone from USDA NRCS.

Not to mention major grants to HMI
Not mention that you have not mentioned USDA NRCS or SARE "major" grants to HMI :jaw-dropp

Holistic Management: A Whole-Farm Decision Making Framework
Oh dear - the notion that a web page containing a brochure is somehow an organization educating people about HM. It is a web page selling HM. It is basically an advertisement, Red Baron Farms!

ETA
The correct term to use is that the USDA NRCS acknowledges the existence of Savory's HM.
As for SARE - I get results from "Holistic management Savoy" that are mostly personal accounts, a conference event and books.

I actually got the results reversed in
ETA: There is at least one small sample study that showed that high capacity methods are worse then adaptive methods:
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical, physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie
Pity you resorted to insults rather than pointing it out.
What that study says: multi-paddock (MP) grazing at a high stocking rate is better (I will emphasis the small sample size) than light continuous (LC) and heavy continuous (HC) grazing :eek:.
 
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The USDA NRCS (National Resource Conservation Service) is oddly enough about conservation.

The USDA service that should really be interested in Savoy's HM is the Agricultural Research Service but there is a enormous 5 results for "Savoy holistic management!
All you are proving by your last 2 posts is your knowledge of the subject is based entirely on a brief google search. Not only do you not know anything about HM, (even though it is free and available to anyone just for the asking) You can't even watch a USDA NRCS or SARE educational vid on HM and even recognise it as such! How could you possibly miss that the "Farmer" in the vid (his name is Gabe brown) is a HM practitioner discussing HM and the educational seminar was produced and published by USDA SARE? Who do you think pays for all the scientific research on his land, being that it is a case study? Who do you think Jay Fuhrer, Dr. Duane Beck, Dr. Kris Nichols, Dr. Rick Haney, Ray Archuletta, David Brandt and Dr. Jill Clapperton are? Just random people? Do you understand what a cooperator is? The second vid by Doug Peterson, 25 year employee of the USDA NRCS and uses HM on his own ranch. You didn't see the intro?
 
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It's a nice try, but it's neither convincing nor compelling, because it's entirely anecdotal. Even if it wasn't, and they had bothered to care about doing it properly, what they claim as "evidence" (the freak rain storm that washed away the hydroplanter plot) is not evidence, but actually the experiment being ruined, because that wasn't what they were testing.

You've said you're a farmer, right? I assume you've participated in seed studies, you must know how these things generally work.

So ranchers and farmers and even mining companies may accept such evidence (I do), but many in academia either ignore it completely or call it "anecdotal". Mayor Terence O. Wheeler
Because it is. Millions of people believing prayer works doesn't make the "evidence" for it more than anecdotes.
 
It's a nice try, but it's neither convincing nor compelling, because it's entirely anecdotal. Even if it wasn't, and they had bothered to care about doing it properly, what they claim as "evidence" (the freak rain storm that washed away the hydroplanter plot) is not evidence, but actually the experiment being ruined, because that wasn't what they were testing.

You've said you're a farmer, right? I assume you've participated in seed studies, you must know how these things generally work.


Because it is. Millions of people believing prayer works doesn't make the "evidence" for it more than anecdotes.
I can agree that the evidence is anecdotal. I have no problem with that. It is strong anecdotal evidence though because it is consistently repeatable. Your example of prayer is a good one and highlights this difference. I can pray for rain and it might rain and it might not rain. Thus in actuality the prayer is really for me. As evidence for prayer, rain is very weak anecdotal evidence at best. Kind of like the prayers and comments surrounding a funeral. That whole ceremony isn't for the dead, it is for the living and helps them deal with the loss.

In so much as this evidence was obtained by Wheeler, a trained professional observer, and did have a control, this type of anecdotal evidence invites further more rigorous detailed study. It is not the same as anecdotal evidence that is not based on facts or careful study.

I think the biggest problem people have with HM is the concept of Holism in Science. It is not stand alone. It actually needs to work in conjunction with reductionism. It's like the old saying "can't see the forest because of all the trees blocking your view". Yes you do need a perspective that views the forest as a whole system, but it does not relieve the requirement that you also view each part of that forest ecosystem as well. The two scientific methods (holism and reductionism) work together, each complimenting the other.

So when the system thinking holistic method that is used in HM does obtain consistent repeatable results, (and it does) There is still the need for reductionism to break it down and test each part. That has been done and is still being done. So when Gabe Brown who is a HM practitioner volunteers himself to be a cooperator and his farm to be a case study, there is a whole team of other experts in their individual fields that work on the individual parts each according to their specialty. Any papers they may write and publish will be in their individual fields. For example: The Teague study I posted. That isn't HM per se. The study has simply defined and tested rigorously part of HM. In other words Teague analyzed some important parts of HM and the claims made by Savory. It is immediately obvious once you actually read the whole paper instead of just the abstract. It is a direct rebuttal to Briske et al. which is being used to claim Savory's claims can't be confirmed scientifically.

Our study contradicts a recent review of grazing studies (Briske et al., 2008) which suggested MP grazing does not improve vegetation or animal production relative to continuous grazing.

On the evidence we present here we propose the following hypothesis as an alternative to Brisk et al. (2008). At the ranch scale, when multi-paddock grazing is managed to give the best vegetation and animal performance it is superior to continuous grazing regarding conservation and restoration of resources, provision of ecosystem goods and services, and ranch profitability.
link

Keep in mind Teague actually participated in the Briske study (D. D. Briske, J. D. Derner, J. R. Brown, S. D. Fuhlendorf, W. R. Teague, K. M. Havstad, R. L. Gillen, A. J. Ash, W. D. Willms). They are colleagues. He knows very well both the strengths and weaknesses of the Briske review. Both are well respected and published scientists. But it is time to lay to rest the incorrect assumption that Savory's claims have been refuted and can't be scientifically confirmed or repeated. Science moves forward. That's why I refer to HM as a breakthrough. Of course there are more studies that need to be done (both reductionist and holistic). That's how the scientific method handles exciting breakthroughs. You know that.

ETA PS Yes I am a farmer. I also am running trials on my own experimental system. I too have volunteered to be a cooperator. Those applications are still pending however.
 
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The two scientific methods (holism and reductionism) work together, each complimenting the other.
Yeah... I'm putting you in the woo bucket. Protip: anytime you have to redefine all of science to be right, you're wrong.

Have fun with him, guys.
 
Yeah... I'm putting you in the woo bucket. Protip: anytime you have to redefine all of science to be right, you're wrong.

Have fun with him, guys.
Holism does not even come close to redefining all of science.

I think that the scientific concept that would improve everyone's cognitive toolkit is holism: the abiding recognition that wholes have properties not present in the parts and not reducible to the study of the parts. - Dr. Nicholas A. Christakis, Harvard
 
We have to look at the big picture but we can't lose sight of the details like "does it work?"
What planet are you from? Seriously. How on God's green Earth could you possibly construe that from anything I have ever said? Since when is looking at the "big picture" and the "details" mutually exclusive?:jaw-dropp

Talk about people dropping woo on this thread! OMG

I specifically said and explained in pretty good detail how holism and reductionism work together and compliment each other, both in theory and in practise in the case of HM. I also explained the mistake in only relying on reductionism, especially in complex biological systems. Nothing I said on the theory of holism is even all that controversial for that matter. I am nowhere near the first person to recognise emergent properties in complex self organising systems. That idea has been around at least as long as Aristotle and always was a part of the scientific method.

the totality is not, as it were, a mere heap, but the whole is something besides the parts - Aristotle

So please explain to me how that redefines all of science when it has been part of the scientific method for at least as long as there has been a scientific method?:boggled:
 
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...snipped insults...
leaving a post that is a completely fact-less rant, Red Baron Farms!
As I said:
YouTube videos that are not USDA NRCS and SARE actively educating HM (i.e. Savoy's methodology that seemingly only he teaches) are not evidence, Red Baron Farms jaw-dropp!
There is the possibility that these YouTube videos mention HM. But lying about the content is bad: The first video is a presentation by a farmer.
However the second video is presented by someone from USDA NRCS..
The idiocy of posting YouTube videos is that no one is going to waste their time watch them unless the title or caption states that they are about the subject being discussed.
Grazing Cover Crops and Benefits for Livestock Operations - Gabe Brown
No mention of Savoy's HM. A conference presentation in the SARE YouTube channel.

Soil Health and Production Benefits of Mob Grazing
No mention of Savoy's HM. In the USDA NRCS channel.
 
leaving a post that is a completely fact-less rant, Red Baron Farms!
As I said:

The idiocy of posting YouTube videos is that no one is going to waste their time watch them unless the title or caption states that they are about the subject being discussed.
Grazing Cover Crops and Benefits for Livestock Operations - Gabe Brown
No mention of Savoy's HM. A conference presentation in the SARE YouTube channel.

Soil Health and Production Benefits of Mob Grazing
No mention of Savoy's HM. In the USDA NRCS channel.
If a teacher talks about fractions to their students, isn't he still teaching math? Is math factions? Or is it that fractions are just a small part of math?

You literally sound like a grade school child protesting that algebra can't be math because it uses letters instead of numbers!

I have pointed out a couple times here that all you need to do is educate yourself even a little on the subject instead of relying only on google searches, and you'll have no problem recognising HM when you see it. You might even be able to comment without feeling insulted when you embarrass yourself with your ignorance of the subject matter.

Both speakers are HM practitioners, teaching parts of HM in government funded and sponsored programs. I really don't care if you like YT educational vids or not. The point is that USDA NRCS and USDA SARE use them for educational purposes, and in this case, to teach parts of HM.
 
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If a teacher talks about fractions to their students, isn't he still teaching math?
No teachers in those videos. Fractions actually work. There is mixed scientific evidence about Savoy's HM and the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal.

These videos are people telling stories. That is not education that is entertainment or maybe propaganda :rolleyes:!

The point is that USDA NRCS and USDA SARE have YT channels where they put presentations. The point is these specific presentations are anecdotes, i.e. getting close to propaganda.
 
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No teachers in those videos. Fractions actually work. There is mixed scientific evidence about Savoy's HM and the majority of range scientists have not been able to experimentally confirm that intensive grazing systems similar to those at the center of holistic management show a benefit, and claim that managers' reports of success are anecdotal.

These videos are people telling stories. That is not education that is entertainment or maybe propaganda :rolleyes:!

The point is that USDA NRCS and USDA SARE have YT channels where they put presentations. The point is these specific presentations are anecdotes, i.e. getting close to propaganda.

1) Just because critics claim it, doesn't mean those claims are true. To decide that you must actually follow the evidence.

2) Your whole argument rests on dismissing the evidence supporting HM as anecdotal, even though that evidence continues to grow and much is being obtained by teams of well trained professionals, including published scientists working in their fields of expertise. That's woo. Pure and simple. In science you follow the evidence first and foremost. If the evidence doesn't fit your preconceived ideas, then it is appropriate to investigate further, not dismiss it out of hand.
 
1) Just because critics claim it, doesn't mean those claims are true. To decide that you must actually follow the evidence.

2) Your whole argument rests on dismissing the evidence supporting HM as anecdotal, even though that evidence continues to grow and much is being obtained by teams of well trained professionals, including published scientists working in their fields of expertise. That's woo. Pure and simple. In science you follow the evidence first and foremost. If the evidence doesn't fit your preconceived ideas, then it is appropriate to investigate further, not dismiss it out of hand.

Remember to send a post card when you get to China!!! :cool:
 

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