Holistic Grazing (split from Cliven Bundy thread)

[Red Baron Farms]

Once more time: Red Baron Farms are you going to ignore the science that debunks an assumption of HM?

Reality Check
1) You made a false premise. I am not ignoring you. In fact I am probably answering your charade of posts too much.
2) You made a false premise. Nothing in the link debunks HMPG in any way what-so-ever.
3) Your argument based on false assumptions is quite tiresome. The fact that you actually found a link to someone else actually making the same false assumptions not withstanding. Maybe try and address an actual issue with actual evidence and maybe just maybe I can answer your concerns.

ETA Try actual evidence based science, instead of that poorly patched together synthesis you are relying on. Here is actual science showing what Savory was talking about:

Comparisons of the Serengeti data with information on the foraging of domestic ungulates indicated that individual grazers obtain a foraging advantage by membership in a herd because of the greater forage yield per bite from grazing lawns compared with lightly grazed vegetation. Thus, natural selection at the individual level, acting on both animals and plants to produce coevolution among members of the same trophic web, can regulate such ecosystem processes as energy flow and nutrient cycling, and contribute to species coexistence and the resultant species diversity of communities.[1]

 

[Reality Check]

Reality Check
1) You made a false premise. I am not ignoring you. In fact I am probably answering your charade of posts too much.
2) You made a false premise. Nothing in the link debunks HMPG in any way what-so-ever.
3) Your argument based on false assumptions is quite tiresome. ...

Red Baron Farms
1) You made a false premise. I am saying you are ignoring the science in the review paper, not me.
2) You made a false premise. Everything in the review paper debunks the HM assumptions using real world facts.
3) Your inability to acknowledge the real world in which Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals is extremely worrying.

Thus my conclusion that Red Baron Farms is ignoring science that debunks an assumption of HM (Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?).
You can say that you read the evidence that Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals and produce evidence that they are wrong.
But going on irrelevant rants is not addressing the debunking of HM assumptions in the review paper. That is either ignoring the science (to be charitable) or knowing and being in denial of the science.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Reality Check,
Look up. I added this, but apparently you posted a reply in the meantime.

Try actual evidence based science, instead of that poorly patched together synthesis you are relying on. Here is actual science showing what Savory was talking about:

Comparisons of the Serengeti data with information on the foraging of domestic ungulates indicated that individual grazers obtain a foraging advantage by membership in a herd because of the greater forage yield per bite from grazing lawns compared with lightly grazed vegetation. Thus, natural selection at the individual level, acting on both animals and plants to produce coevolution among members of the same trophic web, can regulate such ecosystem processes as energy flow and nutrient cycling, and contribute to species coexistence and the resultant species diversity of communities.[1]

 

[Reality Check]

[Try actual evidence based science, instead of that poorly patched together synthesis you are relying on. Here is actual science showing what Savory was talking about:

Try reading and understanding some English , Red Baron Farms:

• Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems is not about just the Serengeti !
• Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems is not asserting that there are no grasslands that have adapted to hooved animals .

To show that this HM assumption, which you have just extended to every grassland in the world , is correct you will have to show that every grassland in the world has adapted to large hooved animals. Your task is smaller than that - you just have to show that all of the Western North American Ecosystems (grasslands) are adapted to herds of large hooved animals!
This will be kind of hard because in the real Western North American Ecosystems, the large hooved animals are bison and their range is not over every grassland.

The actual HM assumption that is addressed and found wrong in this post and listed 6 days ago:

Red Baron Farms
1) You made a false premise. I am saying you are ignoring the science in the review paper, not me.
2) You made a false premise. Everything in the review paper debunks the HM assumptions using real world facts.
3) Your inability to acknowledge the real world in which Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals is extremely worrying.

Thus my conclusion that Red Baron Farms is ignoring science that debunks an assumption of HM (Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?).
You can say that you read the evidence that Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals and produce evidence that they are wrong.
But going on irrelevant rants is not addressing the debunking of HM assumptions in the review paper. That is either ignoring the science (to be charitable) or knowing and being in denial of the science.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Reality Check,
Are you just being obtuse? What part of false premise don't you understand? The false premise that grasslands didn't co-evolve with large grazers? The false premise that the co-evolution requires hooves of a certain size (or lack thereof). The false premise that HM requires only beef cattle? The false premise that the Western grasslands evolved without herds? They are all false premises, every one of them. There is no evidence for ANY of them. The only evidence is that when the herds are removed for whatever reason, the grassland deteriorates. THAT is your evidence.

 

[Reality Check]

Reality Check,
What part of false premise don't you understand?

What part of the English "Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?" do you not understand, Red Baron Farms ?
What part of the fact that "Herds of Large Hooved Animals" did not range over all of the "Western North American Ecosystems" do you not understand, Red Baron Farms?

I will cite and quote the review paper on this one debunked assumption one last time for just for you, Red Baron Farms: Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

2. Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?
Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals. ...
Conclusion. Western US ecosystems outside the prairies in which bison occurred are not adapted to the impact of large herds of livestock. Recent changes to these grassland ecosystems result from herbivory by domestic livestock which has altered fire cycles and promoted invasive species at the expense of native vegetation.

Simply put:
Moist ecosystems ("Great Plains of North America and subtropical grasslands in Africa") supported "historically supported millions of herbivores". ETA - this includes the Serengeti!
Dryer ecosystems did not have these herds, e.g. as supported by the lack of dung beetles ("Whereas 34 native species of dung beetle (g. Onthophagus) are found east of the Rockies on the plains where bison were numerous, none are found west of the Rockies").

 

[Red Baron Farms]

What part of the English "Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?" do you not understand, Red Baron Farms ?
What part of the fact that "Herds of Large Hooved Animals" did not range over all of the "Western North American Ecosystems" do you not understand, Red Baron Farms?

I will cite and quote the review paper on this one debunked assumption one last time for just for you, Red Baron Farms: Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems


Simply put:
Moist ecosystems ("Great Plains of North America and subtropical grasslands in Africa") supported "historically supported millions of herbivores". ETA - this includes the Serengeti!
Dryer ecosystems did not have these herds, e.g. as supported by the lack of dung beetles ("Whereas 34 native species of dung beetle (g. Onthophagus) are found east of the Rockies on the plains where bison were numerous, none are found west of the Rockies").

Still falling back on that poor synthesis? I already told you a week ago, if you actually look at the evidence, even the citations presented in that poor synthesis, there is no evidence of that claim. Bison as well as several other large herding herbivore species like mule deer did in fact evolve and were present in the Western USA grassland biomes.

 

[Reality Check]

Still falling back on that poor synthesis ...

Still falling back on ignorance about the review paper?
I looked at the citations in that section and they back up what it states.
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems
2. Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?.
* Evidence that there are grasslands adapted for large hooved animals [9–11].
* Evidence that there are grasslands that did "not evolve with significant grazing pressure from bison (Bison bison) [9, 12, 13]".
* Evidence that bison "occurred in limited numbers across western Wyoming, northeastern Utah, and southeastern Idaho [12, 14]".
* Evidence that "but these animals are smaller and lighter than bison and are not ecologically comparable [9]" (the alternative of pronghorn antelope).
* Evidence of lack of dung beetles "none are found west of the Rockies [15]."
* Evidence that "the plant communities have changed in the intervening time [16]" from the Pleistocene epoch.
etc. etc. etc.
makes up evidence that you are lying about the citations not supporting the statement that

Conclusion. Western US ecosystems outside the prairies in which bison occurred are not adapted to the impact of large herds of livestock. Recent changes to these grassland ecosystems result from herbivory by domestic livestock which has altered fire cycles and promoted invasive species at the expense of native vegetation.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Reality Check,
Just read the citations offered by that link! I mean don't you think ANY skeptic should actually read and investigate the sources for something they posted BEFORE they post? Why should I have to read and then copy post it back to you! You should have investigated the quality of the source long before you attempted to use it in a debate with me. I already posted the embarrassing scientists crawling on their hands and knees with scissors being used in that poor synthesis. Now you want embarrassed further? OK fair enough.

citation 12 from YOUR source that supposedly debunks HM.

R. Daubenmire, “The western limits of the range of the American bison,” Ecology, vol. 66, no. 2, pp. 622–624, 1985

Archaeologists hold that at least two species of Bison occurred west of the Rockies at the close of the Wisconsin glaciation .....snip..... It became extinct as a wild species west of the Rockies early in the 19th century.

THIS is supposed to be evidence HM is wrong or that the grasslands of the west didn't evolve in the presence of large herbivore herds? Seriously?

AS I said, a very poor unproven synthesis at best. I won't quite call it junk science, but it comes pretty close.

 

[Reality Check]

Reality Check,
Just read the citations offered by that link!

I read the citations offered by the link! Any one who can read can see that R. Daubenmire, “The western limits of the range of the American bison,” Ecology, vol. 66, no. 2, pp. 622–624, 1985 is about the western limits of the range of the American bison !
This is evidence that HM is wrong when it assumes that all of the grasslands of the west did evolve in the presence of large herbivore herds because bison were not significant west of the Rockies
ETA: As you quote

Archaeologists hold that at least two species of Bison occurred west of the Rockies at the close of the Wisconsin glaciation .....snip..... It became extinct as a wild species west of the Rockies early in the 19th century.

(i.e. just 2 species ~11,000 years ago and you do not quote the numbers).
You ignore the other 2 references
* 9. R. N. Mack and J. N. Thompson, “Evolution in steppe with few large hooved mammals,” American Naturalist, vol. 119, no. 6, pp. 757–773, 1982
* 13 .G. Wuerthner, “Are cows just domestic bison? Behavioral and habitat use differences between cattle and bison,” in Proceedings of an International Symposium on Bison Ecology and Management in North America, L. Irby, L. Knight, and J. Knight, Eds., pp. 374–383, Bozeman, Mont, USA, June 1998.

Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

These publications by Savory and his colleagues show that HM is based on the following assumptions: (1) plant communities and soils of the arid, semiarid, and grassland systems of the world evolved in the presence of large herds of animals regulated by their predators ...
We address these five assumptions of HM with a focus on western North American arid and semiarid ecosystems, principally in the desert, steppe, grassland, and open conifer woodland biomes as described by [8]. We use the broad term, grassland, to be inclusive of these types.

2. Are Western North American Ecosystems Adapted to Herds of Large Hooved Animals?.
...
Conclusion. Western US ecosystems outside the prairies in which bison occurred are not adapted to the impact of large herds of livestock. Recent changes to these grassland ecosystems result from herbivory by domestic livestock which has altered fire cycles and promoted invasive species at the expense of native vegetation.

And what does western North America mean, Red Baron Farms?
It does not mean only that part of North America that contains bison ! It does not mean just the Great Plains that are basically in the center of North America which is the historical range of the bison.

As the review paper states

Lands west of the Continental Divide of the USA, including the Great Basin, Sonoran, Mojave, and Colorado Plateau deserts, along with the Palouse Prairie grasslands of eastern Washington, western Montana, and northern Idaho, did not evolve with significant grazing pressure from bison (Bison bison) [9, 12, 13]. Though bison were abundant east of the Rockies on the Great Plains, they only occurred in limited numbers across western Wyoming, northeastern Utah, and southeastern Idaho [12, 14].

Thus the grasslands of western Wyoming, northeastern Utah, and southeastern Idaho did not adapt to herds of large hooved animals (not even pronghorn antelope).

 

[Reality Check]

Evolution in steppe with few large, hooved mammals

Evolution in steppe with few large, hooved mammals, RN Mack, JN Thompson - American Naturalist, 1982 - JSTOR
Abstract

The morphology of rhizomatous and caespitose grasses reflects the two extremes to which perennial grasses have evolved at least in partial response to continuous high versus low selection pressure by large congregating mammals. In North America steppe of the Bouteloua Province east of the Rockies is dominated by a mix of mainly rhizomatous C3 and C4 grasses which have long been associated with large herds of Bison and more recently with cattle. Introduction of cattle into these grasslands had much less effect on community structure than did livestock introduction into steppe of the Agropyron Province west of the Rockies which lacked large herds of mammals throughout the Holocene (and perhaps earlier). The underlying cause of native ungulate sparseness may have been related to the moisture cycle of the Prevailing Westerlies, which may have largely excluded C4 species, thereby severely controlling Bison numbers. In these communities both the dominant C3 caespitose grasses and the prominent cryptogam layer were soon destroyed by domestic ungulates and replaced largely by alien winter annuals. The relative changes in these two Provinces over the past 200 yr illustrate the importance in plants of herbivore-adapted traits in generating the overall physiognomy of some steppes and the resiliency of those grasslands to the introduction of novel selection pressure.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Evolution in steppe with few large, hooved mammals, RN Mack, JN Thompson - American Naturalist, 1982 - JSTOR
Abstract

The morphology of rhizomatous and caespitose grasses reflects the two extremes to which perennial grasses have evolved at least in partial response to continuous high versus low selection pressure by large congregating mammals. In North America steppe of the Bouteloua Province east of the Rockies is dominated by a mix of mainly rhizomatous C3 and C4 grasses which have long been associated with large herds of Bison and more recently with cattle. Introduction of cattle into these grasslands had much less effect on community structure than did livestock introduction into steppe of the Agropyron Province west of the Rockies which lacked large herds of mammals throughout the Holocene (and perhaps earlier). The underlying cause of native ungulate sparseness may have been related to the moisture cycle of the Prevailing Westerlies, which may have largely excluded C4 species, thereby severely controlling Bison numbers. In these communities both the dominant C3 caespitose grasses and the prominent cryptogam layer were soon destroyed by domestic ungulates and replaced largely by alien winter annuals. The relative changes in these two Provinces over the past 200 yr illustrate the importance in plants of herbivore-adapted traits in generating the overall physiognomy of some steppes and the resiliency of those grasslands to the introduction of novel selection pressure.

See...that's a good hypothesis. Notice how good science leads to more good science? They made a hypothesis that the grasses limited the bison. On the other hand, it could be the declining bison that changed the grasses present, since they are both part of the same trophic community. So this is a testable hypothesis. Right or wrong it advances science.

So we test that hypothesis. Was the deteriorating grassland responsible for the decline in Bison or vice versa? We test it with domestic livestock raised in a manner that mimics the large herds, and bingo...instant ecosystem recovery starts.[1][2] We test that hypothesis with removing livestock and culling other large wild herbivores, and oops continuing deterioration of the grassland, in severe cases a complete loss of the habitat as it shifts to a desert biome.[3]

Savory tested one side, Belsky the other. Savory succeeded, Belsky failed. That's how science works. Remember, both Savory and Belsky started at the same place. It's called following the evidence instead of trying to force the evidence to fit your bias.

 

[Reality Check]

See...that's a good hypothesis. Notice how good science leads to more good science? ...

See how that is a reference from more good science, Red Baron Farms: Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems !

You should read your references:
Operation Hope is a web site advertising Savory's disputed and untested reverse desertification hypothesis as a winner of an award. No science there.
Grazing management impacts on vegetation, soil biota and soil chemical,
physical and hydrological properties in tall grass prairie (PDF) is not duplicating bison herds or their behavior. The word bison only appears in 2 references . Plenty of actual science there but irrelevant to bison and cherry-picked because there is science disputing HM:

• Nilsson, C., and B. Malm Renöfält. 2008. Linking flow regime and water quality in rivers: a challenge to adaptive catchment management. Ecology and Society 13(2): 18.
• Briske, D. D. "Origin, Persistence, and Resolution of the Rotational Grazing Debate: Integrating Human Dimensions Into Rangeland Research". Rangeland Ecol Manage 64:325–334.
• D. D. Briske, J. D. Derner, J. R. Brown, S. D. Fuhlendorf, W. R. Teague, K. M. Havstad, R. L. Gillen, A. J. Ash, W. D. Willms, (2008) Rotational Grazing on Rangelands: Reconciliation of Perception and Experimental Evidence. Rangeland Ecology & Management: January 2008, Vol. 61, No. 1, pp. 3-17
• and ... Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems[/URL
  

[URL="http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/News_ONDA_HartMountain.htm"]An update on the Hart Mountain Antelope Refuge in Oregon is a nice web site. No relevant science there.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

No relevant science there.

No relevant science? Seriously? It's not relevant that cattle were removed, and the land continued to deteriorate and several species of wildlife are at all time lows? Technically it may be the result of the application of flawed science (even more technically the application of a flawed unproven scientific synthesis) as opposed to the actual flawed science itself, but that in no way makes it irrelevant. It is extremely relevant. No matter how convincing Belsky's arguments may seem to you, if they fail in the field, they are wrong. And no matter how unconvincing Savory's arguments may seem to you, if they work in the field, it's evidence they are right. If you can't understand that very simple concept, then you need to find a new thread to troll. Science is EVIDENCE driven, not synthesis driven. A synthesis does have a purpose in science, but it is pseudoscience to think a synthesis that doesn't work in the field is still valid just because it sounds good.

 

[Reality Check]

You have not mentioned the other evidence in that section about dung beetles yet, Red Baron Farms.
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

Evidence for this general lack of large herds of grazing animals west of the Rockies also includes the lack of native dung beetles in the region. Whereas 34 native species of dung beetle (g. Onthophagus) are found east of the Rockies on the plains where bison were numerous, none are found west of the Rockies [15].

This is that bison were not numerous enough west of the Rockies to support a population of dung beetles.

 

[Reality Check]

No relevant science? ...snipped irrelevant rant...

Seriously - you do not understand that we are talking about bison and that papers about bison are relevant, Red Baron Farms.
Cattle are not bison, You can at least read that the names are spelt differently . And:
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

G. Wuerthner, “Are cows just domestic bison? Behavioral and habitat use differences between cattle and bison,” in Proceedings of an International Symposium on Bison Ecology and Management in North America, L. Irby, L. Knight, and J. Knight, Eds., pp. 374–383, Bozeman, Mont, USA, June 1998.

(a symposium presentation so not that convincing but common sense suggests that cattle should behave different than bison).

ETA: Are cows just domestic bison? Behavioral and habitat use differences between cattle and bison

Due to gross similarities in size, food preference, and appearance, it is often asserted that bison and domestic cattle are ecological analogues. However, a review of their evolutionary history demonstrates that they have significant differences in evolutionary pressures that manifest themselves in strikingly different modes of resource exploitation. Compared to domestic cattle, bison wander more, are less apt to regraze a site during a single growing season, will use steeper terrain, select and consume drier, rougher forage, and spend less time in riparian areas and wetlands.
In addition, bison were unable to colonize vast portions of the West due to a variety of factors. Evidence suggests these major rangeland ecosystems evolved in the virtual absence of large herding animals. The introduction of domestic livestock into these areas has had particularly negative impacts upon these landscapes.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

You have not mentioned the other evidence in that section about dung beetles yet, Red Baron Farms.
Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

This is that bison were not numerous enough west of the Rockies to support a population of dung beetles.

Dung beetles follow the herds, not the other way around. Nor are dung beetles the only thing that fills that ecological niche. You would have to consider that observation in the context of the whole ecosystem. It's interesting, but alone it is pretty meaningless.

 

[Reality Check]

So what does it mean if we take Savory's hypothesis that we should duplicate the bison era ecology in the USA seriously?
The estimates of pre-Columbian bison numbers range from 30 to 75 million animals.
Cattle inventory (as of July 1, 2014): 95 million.
This suggests reducing domestic USA cattle numbers by at least 20 million and maybe up to a third!

ETA: This assumes that 1 cow == 1 bison.

 

[Red Baron Farms]

Cattle are not bison

Due to gross similarities in size, food preference, and appearance, it is often asserted that bison and domestic cattle are ecological analogues. However, a review of their evolutionary history demonstrates that they have significant differences in evolutionary pressures that manifest themselves in strikingly different modes of resource exploitation. Compared to domestic cattle, bison wander more, are less apt to regraze a site during a single growing season, will use steeper terrain, select and consume drier, rougher forage, and spend less time in riparian areas and wetlands.
In addition, bison were unable to colonize vast portions of the West due to a variety of factors. Evidence suggests these major rangeland ecosystems evolved in the virtual absence of large herding animals. The introduction of domestic livestock into these areas has had particularly negative impacts upon these landscapes.

Absolutely correct. Every part of that quote is correct. What it doesn't mention is that the behavior of cattle is largely dependant on human management. They will only linger in riparian areas and wetlands if they are allowed to by us. They will only regraze a site during a single growing season if we allow them on that site to regraze it. They stop wandering only if we stop forcing them onto new areas. The forage they select is largely determined by the herding effect. Livestock management that was developed in non brittle European grasslands doesn't work in the brittle areas of the world and causes ecosystem deterioration. Those observations are EXACTLY what Savory observed, and changes with HM.

Once again, this is not some magical wand. It is all about real world observations, and real world results of hard work.

ETA BTW Even Bison behavior changes in the presence or absence of predators. With a resulting trophic cascade in the whole ecosystem. That goes for all herbivores.

So what does it mean if we take Savory's hypothesis that we should duplicate the bison era ecology in the USA seriously?
The estimates of pre-Columbian bison numbers range from 30 to 75 million animals.
Cattle inventory (as of July 1, 2014): 95 million.
This suggests reducing domestic USA cattle numbers by at least 20 million and maybe up to a third!

Only if we don't use our clever brains. The whole purpose of agriculture in all forms is to increase food production. Now that can be done in a way that causes ecosystem destruction and ever decreasing resources, or in a way that improves ecosystem function and regenerating resources. Choose.

 

[Reality Check]

Dung beetles follow the herds, not the other way around.

That is the point, Red Baron Farms: No dung beetles = no herds.
No dung beetles west of the Rockies means no (significant) herds west of the Rockies !
I am glad that you recognize that this is evidence for Holistic Management: Misinformation on the Science of Grazed Ecosystems

Not all of today’s grasslands, arid, and semiarid systems evolved with herds of large, hooved animals. ...
Conclusion. Western US ecosystems outside the prairies in which bison occurred are not adapted to the impact of large herds of livestock. Recent changes to these grassland ecosystems result from herbivory by domestic livestock which has altered fire cycles and promoted invasive species at the expense of native vegetation.

(my emphasis added)

However I suspect that you will retract this understanding and evoke some magic to explain why dung beetles did not "follow the herds" that were west of the Rockies.