Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[Jackalgirl]

Curse you, Hokulele. I'm already far behind in my reading list, and now thanks to you, I have to add Ehrman to the list.

Me too -- Ocelot's post was lovely, so Ehrman's book now sounds like a beautiful and uplifting book. Gonna have to hop over to Amazon and get me a copy. : )

 

[thaiboxerken]

His response is counter to mine which is faith. I have faith that tells me no matter how crummy or painful life gets for me or those around me God will one day wipe every tear away and restore us. Why he allows so much suffering is still and will always be a mystery.

To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer. - Ayn Rand

 

[Hokulele]

Me too -- Ocelot's post was lovely, so Ehrman's book now sounds like a beautiful and uplifting book. Gonna have to hop over to Amazon and get me a copy. : )

I certainly don't want to discourage anyone from reading it, but probably the best word to describe this book is "honest". Some sections are difficult, and not everyone will agree with his conclusions (ahem, at least not all of those who actually bothered to read/listen to it). What I did like is that he didn't just leave it at "I don't like the biblical suggestions for why suffering exists and what I should do about it", he did offer up his thoughts on a possible resolution.

And yes, personally I did find his suggestion to be uplifting, but that might just be the lurking idealist in me.

 

[CriticalSock]

Can I check that I've got the right book? There's quite a few by this Ehrman chap...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gods-Problem-Answer-Important-Question-Why/dp/0061173975/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1239886424&sr=1-5

 

[joobz]

There's quite a few by this Ehrman chap...

Yup.

I have Misquoting Jesus, which I thought was extremely good.

The funny thing about his writing is that he holds dear the stories of the bible and of jesus. He doesn't write with the intent to discredit the meaning or to slander them. But it's almost like a person writing candidly of a dear love one. Painfully highlighting both the wonderful aspects and the faults of the person.

 

[Moochie]

Thanks for bringing Ehrman to our attention, Hokulele. After you mentioned him I came across the interview with him in Salon, which I linked to in post #241 -- most interesting perspective! I'm looking forward to the segment of Colbert that he appears in -- I have it on PVR.


M.

 

[joobz]

Thanks for bringing Ehrman to our attention, Hokulele. After you mentioned him I came across the interview with him in Salon, which I linked to in post #241 -- most interesting perspective! I'm looking forward to the segment of Colbert that he appears in -- I have it on PVR.


M.

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/224128/april-09-2009/bart-ehrman
Saw The Colbert one. It was actually quite funny, but rather superficial and akward at points. Colbert raised a good counterargument, but due to the Colbert format there was never a chance to respond to it.

 

[Hokulele]

Can I check that I've got the right book? There's quite a few by this Ehrman chap...

Yep, that's the one. Enjoy!

Thanks for bringing Ehrman to our attention, Hokulele. After you mentioned him I came across the interview with him in Salon, which I linked to in post #241 -- most interesting perspective! I'm looking forward to the segment of Colbert that he appears in -- I have it on PVR.


M.

My pleasure.

Looking back on this thread, I guess it is possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

 

[joobz]

Yep, that's the one. Enjoy!




My pleasure.

Looking back on this thread, I guess it is possible to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Only if Step 1 is "throw away sow's ear" and step 2 is "Buy silk".

 

[kurious_kathy]

Oooh that sounds interesting. Ehrman's book contains a suggestion regarding the problem of suffering.

Kathy I wait with baited breath for you to let us know what Erhmans proposal was.

Ehrman discusses in this book his own personal anguish of not being able to reconcile the claims of faith with the facts of life and thus challenges everyone to evaluate what we believe about how God engages with the world. In his experience it pretty much sounds like he finds that if there is a God he could not allow such pain and sufferring in the world so he has concluded there is no God. He is just plain wrong and blinded to who God really is. God is Holy and we cannot fathom what that means. He must deal with sin and judge this world for it. If we repent and hold onto Jesus we know are sins are forgiven, but that doesn't mean bad things won't happen to us either. It just means when we die,(which we all will due to the penalty for sin is death) we will not stand judgement and we will go onto heaven our permanent home. "The sufferings of this world do not compare to all the Lord has planned for those who love and put their trust in him!" This is my response to Ehrmans book, true faith makes this belief possible and we can know the one true God who saves through Christ our Lord.

 

[Hokulele]

Ehrman discusses in this book his own personal anguish of not being able to reconcile the claims of faith with the facts of life and thus challenges everyone to evaluate what we believe about how God engages with the world.

OK, so you have now shown that you read the dust cover.

What is Ehrman's suggestion as a response and solution to the issue of suffering and what do you think of it as a solution?

 

[kurious_kathy]

Kathy lies.

Why do you throw stones at me RT? Do you not realize when you point your finger acusing someone you have 3 more pointing back at you?

Do not judge or you will be judged by the righteous one who will one day make everything right. None of us are perfect because we are sinners, but I do not ever purposely tell lies so please stop with the rude accusations! I may not be a genius and know all things but do you really think it's fair to go around calling me a liar? I would appreciate an apology.

 

[Hokulele]

Why do you throw stones at me RT? Do you not realize when you point your finger acusing someone you have 3 more pointing back at you?

Do not judge or you will be judged by the righteous one who will one day make everything right. None of us are perfect because we are sinners, but I do not ever purposely tell lies so please stop with the rude accusations! I may not be a genius and know all things but do you really think it's fair to go around calling me a liar? I would appreciate an apology.

Let's try this as a direct question.

Did you listen to the entirety of Ehrman's book, yes or no?

 

[kurious_kathy]

OK, so you have now shown that you read the dust cover.

What is Ehrman's suggestion as a response and solution to the issue of suffering and what do you think of it as a solution?

I have listened twice to this book and all it does is get me upset that this guy is leading others to believe his twisted version of thinking. Satan's favorite game is scripture twisting and from what I see in this book Ehrman is doing the same thing. Yes when we look at the sufferings people have gone through it doesn't seem to make sense but God has a purpose for all he allows.

I find it harmful to read this book and advise others to stay away from the authors wrong influence. He will one day stand before God and I do not think he will be happy with his judgement and how he is accountable for misleading others in his writings.

I'll stick with the Bible and studying God's word with spirit filled Pastors and Teachers thanks! If you want to truly know God I suggest you do the same!!

 

[Hokulele]

Well, no one can say that I didn't try. Since you clearly will not address any of the points made in the book, other than to complain about Ehrman personally, I will try and summarize for the others following this thread.

This book is broken into sections dealing with the way suffering is presented throughout the bible, and the biblical explanations for why suffering exists. These range from KK's favorite of punishment for sin through being necessary for salvation (sort of a New Testament version of "no pain, no gain"). Of all the biblical depictions of suffering, the only one that rings true to him is the one presented in Ecclesiastes, which by coincidence has always been my favorite chapter of the bible. It is pretty explicit in stating that life just isn't fair, and it isn't reasonable for any person to expect it to be. As far as the author of Ecclesiastes is concerned, faith should be a response to life's reality, not a fantasy of what we imagine life should be (in direct contrast to the article by Charlie Campbell discussed back on the first page).

After examining and commenting on the various biblical responses to suffering, Ehrman then offers his own take. In a nutshell, he believes that suffering does not exist for any higher purpose, it is just a fact of life. The most humane response, and the one that gives him the greatest comfort, is to acknowledge that we are all here for a brief time, and to take all possible steps to not just offer comfort to the afflicted, but do all one can to reduce their pain and its sources. In other words, making this the best of all possible worlds takes effort, but the result is worth it.

In the classic Jamesian-Paulian conflict, Ehrman comes down solidly on the side of works, not faith.

And no, KK, Ehrman never claims that god doesn't exist, he simply states that he can no longer have faith in your version of god.

 

[Hokulele]

I have one last comment and then this thread can either drop into obscurity or turn into a general discussion on these topics.

I find it harmful to read this book and advise others to stay away from the authors wrong influence.

So you are advising censorship? Viewpoints that you do not agree with are to be avoided rather than honestly examined? I find this stance completely abhorrent and impossible to reconcile with your earlier pleas for open-mindedness. One of the firm foundations of my faith (to be ironic for a moment) is that it must be open to challenge. If it cannot withstand such a challenge, I should rethink what it is I think I know. I would never, ever tell anyone they shouldn't read/listen/watch any piece of material, no matter how much I disagree with it.

I do hope that the people who have been inspired to read Ehrman's book due to the existence of this thread, regardless of their beliefs, would have similar honesty and courage to examine not only what they believe, but what others do as well. Clearly, you believe otherwise.

 

[paximperium]

I find it harmful to read this book and advise others to stay away from the authors wrong influence. He will one day stand before God and I do not think he will be happy with his judgement and how he is accountable for misleading others in his writings.

A suggestion coming from someone who didn't the book is less than useless and Kathy's judgment of Ehrman based on her ignorance is more than vile.

 

[kurious_kathy]

A suggestion coming from someone who didn't the book is less than useless and Kathy's judgment of Ehrman based on her ignorance is more than vile.

He actually put a lot of scripture in this book which surprised me but then what he did with it is insulting for those of us who have true faith.

If I thought Ehrman was trying to reason anything true I would not be so harsh but he has made it okay to doubt God in his writings and thats not right. God is not mocked and people will do better if they learn this.

 

[kurious_kathy]

I have one last comment and then this thread can either drop into obscurity or turn into a general discussion on these topics.




So you are advising censorship? Viewpoints that you do not agree with are to be avoided rather than honestly examined? I find this stance completely abhorrent and impossible to reconcile with your earlier pleas for open-mindedness. One of the firm foundations of my faith (to be ironic for a moment) is that it must be open to challenge. If it cannot withstand such a challenge, I should rethink what it is I think I know. I would never, ever tell anyone they shouldn't read/listen/watch any piece of material, no matter how much I disagree with it.

I do hope that the people who have been inspired to read Ehrman's book due to the existence of this thread, regardless of their beliefs, would have similar honesty and courage to examine not only what they believe, but what others do as well. Clearly, you believe otherwise.

Yes I believe you and many others have been too influenced by this book and now you are promoting it which makes you even more accountable to God. When I said I would read this book and give you my opinion I did not intend for you to start a thread. Why did you feel it was even necessary to do that? I could have just PM'd you my opinion but you had to make a big to do of it, why?? Did you really think I would be influenced to turn to the dark side by reading this?

 

[Mr Clingford]

Yes I believe you and many others have been too influenced by this book and now you are promoting it which makes you even more accountable to God. When I said I would read this book and give you my opinion I did not intend for you to start a thread. Why did you feel it was even necessary to do that? I could have just PM'd you my opinion but you had to make a big to do of it, why?? Did you really think I would be influenced to turn to the dark side by reading this?

I believe that if God and God's love are struck down by Ehrman then they will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.