Hokulele - kurious_kathy Book Challenge

[Roadtoad]

Back in the day, I used to listen to Chuck Smith, the guy who started the first Calvary Chapel, IIRC. It's pretty emotional stuff, but without much fact to back it. Sadly, as Dr. Walter Martin used to point out, it's more about feeling good, rather than doing good.

Which, of course, has become one of my chief criticisms of the Church, and one which the Book of James covers. Funny how Kathy doesn't mention that, though she does mention that she helped a homeless family, (but not how.) Nor does Kathy have sufficient integrity to discuss any of the issues brought up directly.

I hate to say this, gang, but Kathy's simply looking for another opportunity to preach, not to discuss.

 

[MIKILLINI]

I hate to say this, gang, but Kathy's simply looking for another opportunity to preach, not to discuss.

She hasn't shown herself to argue intellectually, she is a Godbot.

 

[Roadtoad]

She hasn't shown herself to argue intellectually, she is a Godbot.

HEY! No insulting the Godbots!

 

[Sun Countess]

In one of the first articles that KK linked to in this thread, Charlie Campbell said very clearly that God gave us free will because the last thing he wanted was a bunch of robots singing his praises all day long.

Even God thinks Kathy is boring.

 

[Nankay]

Even God thinks Kathy is boring.

Ouch.

 

[Bob Klase]

In one of the first articles that KK linked to in this thread, Charlie Campbell said very clearly that God gave us free will because the last thing he wanted was a bunch of robots singing his praises all day long.

Seems that god gave us free will but he doesn't want us to actually use it and he doesn't want a bunch of robots but will settle for a bunch of robots if it means that we do exactly what he tells us to do while not using free will.

 

[Roadtoad]

Funny how that works, eh, Bob?

 

[Louisthe13th]

Are you John Prine?

no, but I am heavily influenced by him!

one of America's treasures in my humble opinion...

I have been working on Speed of the Sound of Loneliness on banjo... great tune.


As to the topic of this thread... it just makes my head hurt.

 

[MIKILLINI]

HEY! No insulting the Godbots!

No intentions to insult here, only calling it as I see it. Kathy looks upon arguments against or challenging the existence of God as running outside of her belief mechanism: The Biblical belief mechanism which describes her guilty before God and sentenced to everlasting punishment unless she repents, gives her life to Christ, and then testifies the "good news".

I just ask questions that may or may not trigger a possible hesitation in the closed loop of her Godbot speak.

 

[arthwollipot]

However, the only book you've given them has one line that just says, "Because I said so."

Heh. Take a look at my library and repeat that.

 

[arthwollipot]

Okay I understand you do not understand me the way I try to share things. But when you say many did believe in heaven or hell at one time but now they do not, at what point did you stop believing in heaven or hell? Was it when you started belieivng in evolution rather than creation?

I stopped believing in God and all of the associated stuff long before I ever realised that creationists existed.

 

[kurious_kathy]

Back in the day, I used to listen to Chuck Smith, the guy who started the first Calvary Chapel, IIRC. It's pretty emotional stuff, but without much fact to back it. Sadly, as Dr. Walter Martin used to point out, it's more about feeling good, rather than doing good.

Which, of course, has become one of my chief criticisms of the Church, and one which the Book of James covers. Funny how Kathy doesn't mention that, though she does mention that she helped a homeless family, (but not how.) Nor does Kathy have sufficient integrity to discuss any of the issues brought up directly.

I hate to say this, gang, but Kathy's simply looking for another opportunity to preach, not to discuss.

Rt I am not trying to find an oppt just to preach but I do find it tiresome to play the intellectual game as their is no end to it and all I feel sometimes is worn out and no one really wants to hear what I have to say anyway. Because of my health I also have to take lots of rests in between being on jref, not to mention I do have other things I want to do so it is more an issue of time than anything else. Also I need to figure out how to turn on my notification when someone replies as it hasn't worked for quite a while now which really makes it a bit tougher to keep up especially if I am off the interent for a couple days.

As for this homeless family I did mention how we helped them. They stayed with us over 6 weeks in our home and then we helped them get another temporary place as it was just too crowded in here for 2 families plus our septic/ and well water cannot hold up with so many people. (We need a deeper well but have not been able to afford it since we bought this palce.) We are still trying to help them but this gal needs more than just us to help her as she is a widow and I do not think she knows how to take care of herself and her kids very easily without her husband. One thing about stay at home moms they do not always have an easy time trying to get out in the work force but since I had done it in the past I am trying to be supportive. I just sent her 2 adds via the internet tonight and will try to follow up with her and maybe even try to offer to drive her to these places for moral support. I do what I can but we are having some difficulties around our house these days too as my hubby lost his job and he needs to try to find something. It really has been a hard year for a lot of people.

 

[kurious_kathy]

On the plus side, looking at the church website, the pastor does say that the Earth could be 6 million years old, rather than just 6000 years. So at least developments in human knowledge of the last 200 years are acknowledged.

KK, a feeling nags me that I shouldn't be snarky towards you, but I really disagree with you very strongly with, for instance, what you have just written about mental health and the possible destination of suicides.

I know many do not agree that I feel the whole mental health issue is more a spiritual battle than a chemical problem. I just do not like how they are putting everyone on anti depressants these days stating it's always a chemical imbalance. How do they prove that anyway? When I went to counselling in the past they always asked me tons of personal questions and then they would diagnose me with depression. Depression is something this world as a whole does feel and with suicide on the rise it is not good.
I still say we are feeling and seeing the affects of what sin has caused us in this world but God can and does still help us find peace when we go to him. The only hope I have is that whatever spiritual battle I may be having Jesus can win it for me. A counsellor/ psychologist never gave me reassurance, only God does.

 

[kurious_kathy]

So, how is the audio book going? Any thoughts yet?

Well I am taking it slowly but my first thoughts are just that I feel sorry for the guy as I do not think he could have walked away from Christianity if he had ever had true saving faith. What denomination did he say he was? And then he mentioned his wife is still a believer so I wonder how they are doing it in their marriage? Unequally yoked is not easy as it does cause problems in many households. But he does not mention much about his personal relationships in this book being affected by his walking away from his once professing faith.

Then I just see how he is dwelling on too much of the wrong stuff which everyone knows whatever you focus on will affect you. If all you are looking at is the pain and how aweful it is for people then it will bring you down to a negative outlook. I can see that God was using all these things in peoples lives. He is God and has to deal with sin whether we like to hear it or not. And it may be that sometimes the sins of others have affected us somehow too in a bad way but God did not want that necessarily to happen. Can we really know if someone is suffering because of God's rath? What if it's just natural consequences??

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Depression is something this world as a whole does feel and with suicide on the rise it is not good.

Wrong.

People feel upset. They do not all have clinical depresson.

You should actually understand something before you start claiming it's nonsense. Your vile, idiotic excuse for an understanding of mental health has been noted time and again. I don't care if your religion is correct right now, but faith in god does NOT cause you to be mentally well if you had a neuro-transmitter (or similar neuro-chemical) imbalance. If it did, there would be no mentally ill Christians.

Please stop embarrassing yourself and angering others by spouting off on something you have no understanding of in a ham-fisted and offensive way.

 

[Ocelot]

Here is a challenge to you (I offered something similar to Jesus Freak a few years ago). I will read and offer up an analysis of any and/or all the articles on Charlie's website if you read and offer up an analysis of a book of my choice. I have in mind Bart Ehrman's God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question — Why We Suffer. He comes from a strong evangelistic background, and he isn't an atheist, so you shouldn't have to worry on that account.

Well I am taking it slowly but my first thoughts are just that I feel sorry for the guy as I do not think he could have walked away from Christianity if he had ever had true saving faith. What denomination did he say he was? And then he mentioned his wife is still a believer so I wonder how they are doing it in their marriage? Unequally yoked is not easy as it does cause problems in many households. But he does not mention much about his personal relationships in this book being affected by his walking away from his once professing faith.

Cold someone clarify what beliefs does Bart Erhman have currently.

After reading Hok's report I had jumped to the conclusions that Erhamn has merely rejected the bible literalism held dear by many evangelicals but was still a christian. However after reading Kathy's report I realise that there are other alternative to being an atheirst, including deism and certain types of agnostic.

 

[Hokulele]

Well I am taking it slowly but my first thoughts are just that I feel sorry for the guy as I do not think he could have walked away from Christianity if he had ever had true saving faith.

Argument from incredulity and No True Scotsman. He clearly states his reasoning behind his change of heart.

What denomination did he say he was? And then he mentioned his wife is still a believer so I wonder how they are doing it in their marriage?

That is all discussed in the book. Keep reading and you will find the answers to those questions.

Unequally yoked is not easy as it does cause problems in many households.

Tell that to St. Paul, as it was his recommendation originally that unequally yoked marriages are good for people.

But he does not mention much about his personal relationships in this book being affected by his walking away from his once professing faith.

Yes, and that should tell you something about how healthy relationships work.

Then I just see how he is dwelling on too much of the wrong stuff which everyone knows whatever you focus on will affect you. If all you are looking at is the pain and how aweful it is for people then it will bring you down to a negative outlook.

Ah, you have completely missed the entire point of the book. Keep reading, as the message of the book is actually a positive one. The first several chapters demonstrate how the concept of suffering and the role it played in first Judaism, then Christianity, evolved over time as documented in the bible. He addresses his reasoning as to why all of the justifications used by each of the biblical authors do not hold water.

I can see that God was using all these things in peoples lives. He is God and has to deal with sin whether we like to hear it or not. And it may be that sometimes the sins of others have affected us somehow too in a bad way but God did not want that necessarily to happen.

So you are arguing against original sin? Hmm...

Can we really know if someone is suffering because of God's rath? What if it's just natural consequences??

Very good, you are almost there! Get rid of the concept of consequences, and you will have it exactly.

 

[Hokulele]

Cold someone clarify what beliefs does Bart Erhman have currently.

After reading Hok's report I had jumped to the conclusions that Erhamn has merely rejected the bible literalism held dear by many evangelicals but was still a christian. However after reading Kathy's report I realise that there are other alternative to being an atheirst, including deism and certain types of agnostic.

As of the latest interview I have heard with him, he calls himself an agnostic.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131

 

[Ocelot]

As of the latest interview I have heard with him, he calls himself an agnostic.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=19096131

Thanks

 

[Ladewig]

. I just do not like how they are putting everyone on anti depressants these days stating it's always a chemical imbalance. How do they prove that anyway?

One way, probably not the best, is to observe what happens to people who take medicine for this illness. One such treatment is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) which, in very broad terms, change the way the brain uses certain naturally occurring chemicals.

When I went to counselling in the past they always asked me tons of personal questions and then they would diagnose me with depression.

I'm sorry if you were misdiagnosed with depression. but having some people misdiagnosed does not mean that everyone is misdiagnosed.

I know many do not agree that I feel the whole mental health issue is more a spiritual battle than a chemical problem.

First off, what you "feel" is irrelevant to the question of what is or isn't an illness. If you are interested in this issue then please educate yourself before posting offensive accusations. Furthermore, I'd like you to understand exactly how offensive your position is, so let me offer this question: what would be your response if someone told you that neither cancer or DDD is medical illness, but rather are spiritual illnesses that demonstrate that suffers have separated themselves from God's love.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

ETA: I have a challenge for you Kathy, I defy you to find a spiritually mature person who can read pages 13-15 of the thread about the offensiveness of the Gospels and conclude that you are helping Christianity.