Hitting A Woman?

[tyr_13]

I went through much the same: being cornered by an angry (and in our case drunk or high) man, him screaming, spittle flying, getting in my face, backing me up until I was against the wall... And if I tried to get away or move him, that's when I'd get slapped. Then backhanded. Shoved. Punched in the gut. Kicked.

Now imagine being a man having a woman doing the same thing to you, and if the police come they arrest you. Not only that, but you're called a pussy, a coward, and a wife beater.

I don't mean to minimize anything that anyone has been through. Obviously domestic violence is a huge problem. While I recognize the comments that led to these remarks, I just have to point out the entire point of this thread seems to be to recognize the double standard for violence.

Now I'm fully aware this might spark the 'do men have it worse than women' debate, and I'm sorry if it does, because that really shouldn't be the focus.

Sorry. I guess some people like to ask certain questions as if no one is going to reply, "I'm a woman, and I was abused, so I"m not likely to think it's ever okay to hit anyone, but you're kind of pushing my buttons when you specify 'women,' and the survivor in me has to respond so you know there are real people reading your questions and certain responses ought to be expected."

Again, I see the comments that led to this line of discussion, but just talking about 'women' and 'hitting' shouldn't make one stick to some script about wife beating. Honestly though, it is heartening to see this thread go this long before the vague defense of spousal abuse crept in.

 

[qayak]

Of course it's wrong!

Women are frail, delicate creatures who aren't as strong or violent as men. They also can't be held accountable for their actions, nor held to the same standards as men.

That's right! And the best ones know that they should starve themselves to make sure they maintain the ideal figure so they don't embarass their husband/boyfriend. They should also be able to satisfy their man in anyway he so desires.

That's the real test of womanhood.

 

[qayak]

When self-preservation comes into conflict with some other virtue, (like protecting others) then the thinking person will try to sort out what the best (or, from their moral framework, most virtuous) course of actions is. Sometimes it means putting yourself at risk.

Of course, that's difficult. It's much easier to simply say that when self-preservation comes into conflict with some other virtue, self-preservation always loses. Otherwise you are a coward. Once you've got that sort of absolutist morality, you don't have to think about it too much anymore.

I agree and I think that if you ask people who did really heroic things many/most either were not aware of the risk to themselves or thought that there was a good chance that they would be okay. They did not go into the situation trying to commit suicide.

I have talked to many people who have been in combat and they basically said the same. If you do the right thing, you are a hero. If you do the wrong thing, well, you tried. And trying is always better than being frozen by indecision.

 

[Roboramma]

It was the utter stupidity of this post I was responding to.

It doesn't seem particularly stupid to me. It actually seems to be quite wise, but maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Eyeron]

gayak, in post #280 you say

It was the utter stupidity of this post I was responding to.

Why is that post stupid? I've know plenty of men who are exactly like this, they prefer to respond with their machismo rather than with anything else.

 

[qayak]

gayak, in post #280 you say


Why is that post stupid? I've know plenty of men who are exactly like this, they prefer to respond with their machismo rather that with anything else.

And I know many who test themselves through fighting and few, if any, abuse women.

That and the fact that a woman is deciding what men should be doing, as if males and females are the same.

I don't care if you aren't into it but don't think that just because you aren't, everyone who is is a violent, unthinking brute.

You will also notice that when she was called on the post, slingblade ignored it.

 

[tyr_13]

It doesn't seem particularly stupid to me. It actually seems to be quite wise, but maybe I'm missing something.

gayak, in post #280 you say


Why is that post stupid? I've know plenty of men who are exactly like this, they prefer to respond with their machismo rather that with anything else.

[STRIKE)I don't agree with qayak's apparent position, but I think he is referring to what is a bit of a straw man and the last line, which is perhaps unfounded speculation.

Most of the 'manly men' I've known, while foolish, have been the type who say hitting a woman under any circumstance is abhorrent (because women are so frail and stupid and need manly men to protect them).

Obviously I have no idea if actually true that men who like to hit each other are more likely to be wife beaters, but I can say it wasn't prominent among any of the martial artists I've known. Of course I don't know that many boxers.

Or it could be the veiled insinuation that qayak beats women or would because he thinks like a manly man.

Well, it turns out that I don't know any more than you both do, but it didn't stop me from speculating. Please do clarify qayak.(/STRIKE]

EDIT: Oh, you did. Nevermind.

 

[qayak]

gayak, in post #280 you say. . .

Not that it matters but it is qayak. That's a lower case Q there at the beginning.

 

[Eyeron]

You know, I'm dyslexic to a mild degree and reading text with lines through it makes it really hard to read.

In a thread like this there will always be a lot of generalizing,

Edit: addressed to tyr.

 

[tyr_13]

You know, I'm dyslexic to a mild degree and reading text with lines through it makes it really hard to read.

In a thread like this there will always be a lot of generalizing,

Edit: addressed to tyr.

I wanted it to be clear that what I had posted was no longer of good use, but didn't want to just delete it in case anyone really wanted to take me to task for it. I've modded the tags so that it should be clear now, but without the actual striking of the text.

I understand that there will be a lot of generalizing, and accept that. I don't think however that it should always just go unchallenged especially when it is addressing someone else's generalization.

Does that sentence even make sense to anyone else?

 

[Roboramma]

And I know many who test themselves through fighting and few, if any, abuse women.

That and the fact that a woman is deciding what men should be doing, as if males and females are the same.

I don't care if you aren't into it but don't think that just because you aren't, everyone who is is a violent, unthinking brute.

You will also notice that when she was called on the post, slingblade ignored it.

Oh, if she was saying that men who enjoy martial arts are likely to be wife-beaters then I agree with you. I thought she was suggesting that men who tend to take their anger and turn it into violence, who would respond to an insult with a fist, are likely to do the same with women as well.

But then, I just watched Once Were Warriors yesterday, so my viewpoint may be a little skewed at the moment.

 

[tyr_13]

Of course I don't know many martial artists who do it to 'prove they are manly', so...

 

[qayak]

Of course I don't know many martial artists who do it to 'prove they are manly', so...

On the surface I agree but I would say that for many it is a test of themselves everytime they step onto the mat with an opponent.

I have some doubt about your statement simply because of the disproportionate number of males in martial arts classes. At least in all the clubs I have attended. Perhaps many of them do it to prove they are manly, I don't read minds.

 

[KingMerv00]

Of course I don't know many martial artists who do it to 'prove they are manly', so...

 

[Eyeron]

And let's not forget Mister T.

 

[qayak]

Oh, if she was saying that men who enjoy martial arts are likely to be wife-beaters then I agree with you. I thought she was suggesting that men who tend to take their anger and turn it into violence, who would respond to an insult with a fist, are likely to do the same with women as well.

But then, I just watched Once Were Warriors yesterday, so my viewpoint may be a little skewed at the moment.

Slingblade made a blanket statement about males who "test their manhood" which I thought was completely wrong. There are many ways to test oneself including violence. Some may view it as testing their manhood which is their perogative but there is no way for her to know why they do it. She thinks they are abusive because they do something she doesn't like.

Abusing women and testing yourself are two completely different and, unrelated, things.

 

[Roboramma]

Again, qayak, I agree with that. My interpretation of her post comes from the last sentence:

Is it mere coincidence that the men who think they need to hit people to prove they are manly are often also the men who routinely abuse women?

Which suggests that the "testing of manhood" that she's got a problem with is specifically becoming violent. Which made sense to me given the context of the thread (ie. the talk about knocking someone out for insulting you, and the idea that you'd be a coward not to become violent in that type of situation). Of course, if you take the first part of her post literally then, again, your comments may be merited. I simply don't.

It didn't occur to me that she might be talking about martial arts, however.

 

[Roboramma]

To go a little further, the connection I see is simple: if a threat to a person's manhood is justification in his mind for him to become violent, and women can threaten his manhood, then this sort of attitude can lead to violence against women.

Of course, that doesn't seem to be the sort of thing you're defending. Your "testing of manhood" is the sort of thing that I personally would support. Challenging oneself, testing one's limits, courage, endurance, etc. All things I feel pretty strongly about. But I do think that the former is closer to the sort of thing that slingblade was talking about than the latter.

And Slingblade, if I've put words in your mouth, I apologize.

 

[Roboramma]

And KingMerv00, that guy in Napoleon Dynamite was awesome, I just wish there'd been more of him.

 

[Rairun]

It's quite obvious she wasn't talking about martial artists, unless you believe all of them are members of Cobra Kai. Or unless you want to conveniently discredit her point.