Hitting a brick wall

[Suggestologist]

Ah, the specious PSP once again rears its ugly head, Paj. Suggestologist needs to jump out the top floor window in a twenty-story building before being convinced he won't survive it. PSP, my man, PSP.

For those needing a good mnemonic to remember Suggestologist's questionable advice, simply think "PiSs Poor".

You're into sloganeering, I see. I've jumped off of enough things to have the experience that the higher you jump from the harder you land.

People like you, on the other hand, will accept it if a scientist were to tell you that you could jump of a twenty-story building and survive; because you treat personal experience as second-hand, when in fact the scientific articles are second-hand. A handy heuristic.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I prefer primary source experience. In other words, at least see it done. Better: have it done to you. Even better: do it yourself. And above all, give it an honest chance. If it's really BS, you'll have the opportunity to reevaluate sometime after the experience. Are you convinced enough in the fact that it's BS to not consider it BS for the time being while you experience it for yourself?

No. I have a magic pill for you to injest, I won't tell you what's in it, only that it will make you feel better. Would you take the pill and give it an honest chance to work?

FYI, a Reiki guy actually tried to cure me of a headache and failed. I didn't pay any money, he was trying to prove himself.

 

[TheBoyPaj]

I am not claiming that reiki is or is not effective. I am claiming that nearly anything can be effective for some things.

Finally, we agree on something. My claim is that Reiki is good for two things. Making people feel good about themselves (possible psychological pain relief/placebo action) and relieving them of money.

In fact, that's what I said in my initial post. Why exactly did you feel the need to imply otherwise?

 

[Suggestologist]

It's a lot less stressful. I find I can emotionally detach when I use the written word, as opposed to the spoken word, and I think I can be much more effective when writing than when speaking. When kookery pops up in conversation, it's time for me to take a walk. I just can't physically involve myself in group insanity.

The fact that You think you don't involve yourself in group insanity implies that you aren't sane.

Take a good look around you. They're all insane. And you're not discluded.

You may be more effective in writting, I just hope you keep in mind that sometimes writing cannot effect the things you want affected.

You can always pretend you're not yourself.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Words are symbols. Work on not eating the menu.

BS. You use nonsense rhetoric to make yourself seem as if you have a superior position. The fact of the matter is that Reiki has not been proven effective for healing or curing ailments. That's why I consider Reiki nonsense.

Your semantics game doesn't impress me in the slightest.

 

[Suggestologist]

I prefer primary source experience. In other words, at least see it done. Better: have it done to you. Even better: do it yourself. And above all, give it an honest chance. If it's really BS, you'll have the opportunity to reevaluate sometime after the experience. Are you convinced enough in the fact that it's BS to not consider it BS for the time being while you experience it for yourself?

No. I have a magic pill for you to injest, I won't tell you what's in it, only that it will make you feel better. Would you take the pill and give it an honest chance to work?

Doctors do that crap to people all the time.

FYI, a Reiki guy actually tried to cure me of a headache and failed. I didn't pay any money, he was trying to prove himself.

Did you give it an honest chance. Did you put your skepticism aside for the moment?

 

[Suggestologist]

Words are symbols. Work on not eating the menu.

BS. You use nonsense rhetoric to make yourself seem as if you have a superior position. The fact of the matter is that Reiki has not been proven effective for healing or curing ailments. That's why I consider Reiki nonsense.

Your semantics game doesn't impress me in the slightest.

I'm not playing semantics. I've identified the psychological action that takes place when you hear "alternative" juxtaposed with "medicine." Many people have similar reactions with other word combinations, "hot buttons" -- that's what some people call the triggers.

 

[Suggestologist]

Finally, we agree on something. My claim is that Reiki is good for two things. Making people feel good about themselves (possible psychological pain relief/placebo action) and relieving them of money.

Doctors make people feel good and relieve them of money as well, are you opposed to medical doctors? There was even an expose` recently about how doctors were paying people to have unneeded operations so that they could relieve their insurance companies of money.

I think what you're opposed to is the "placebo" quality of one as opposed to the "physical" quality of the other. I suppose that you would much rather pay for drugs if your kid is a bedwetter than have some "placebo" ritualistic alternative; to stop wet bed?

In fact, that's what I said in my initial post. Why exactly did you feel the need to imply otherwise?

I believe I objected to your not being open to new experience. To learning more about the subject and how the other person thinks about the subject.

 

[thaiboxerken]

The thing is...........I tried Reiki, it didn't work. Oh, and I can't place my skepticism to the side. I want evidence, I sought evidence.. i found none. Will you place your skepticism to the side and buy my Mini Cooper for $100,000 US Dollars? It's well worth it, how can you know without actually doing it?

Even if my headache did go away with the Reiki, I would still seek clinical and medical evidence. I am well aware of the placebo effect. Simply because I saw the magician pull a rabbit out of his hat doesn't mean that there is hole to another universe in that hat.

An open mind lets the sun burn your brain.

 

[Mercutio]

Thank you. I now understand how you come to the conclusions you do. You are working off of a Signal Response to "alternative medicine". To you, "alternative medicine" means "not effective".

S-R conditioning.

and later,

I'm not playing semantics. I've identified the psychological action that takes place when you hear "alternative" juxtaposed with "medicine." Many people have similar reactions with other word combinations, "hot buttons" -- that's what some people call the triggers.

If I review an intro textbook that has this as an example of S-R conditioning, I leave the manuscript bleeding red ink. As this is just an internet forum, you are allowed a little more leeway. You can try again, or just admit you have not identified psychological squat.

 

[Suggestologist]

The thing is...........I tried Reiki, it didn't work. Oh, and I can't place my skepticism to the side.

If you can't place your skepticism to the side, then you're not secure in your scepticism. And you didn't actually try it if you didn't fully get into it. And if you were trying it with an incompetent practitioner, you weren't really trying it either.

I want evidence, I sought evidence.. i found none. Will you place your skepticism to the side and buy my Mini Cooper for $100,000 US Dollars? It's well worth it, how can you know without actually doing it?

I can take it for a test drive and find out for myself. That means I like personal experience. You couldn't convince me to buy it by showing me the specs. I wonder, have you ever bought a car without test driving it? I wouldn't be surprised.

Even if my headache did go away with the Reiki, I would still seek clinical and medical evidence. I am well aware of the placebo effect. Simply because I saw the magician pull a rabbit out of his hat doesn't mean that there is hole to another universe in that hat.

You think "placebo" means "trick". Just like you think "alternative medicine" means "not effective". Both wrong.

An open mind lets the sun burn your brain.

A closed personality leads to depressive boredom and paranoia.

 

[Suggestologist]

and later,


If I review an intro textbook that has this as an example of S-R conditioning, I leave the manuscript bleeding red ink. As this is just an internet forum, you are allowed a little more leeway. You can try again, or just admit you have not identified psychological squat. [/B]

Mercutio, what is a "hot button"?

 

[BillHoyt]

You're into sloganeering, I see. I've jumped off of enough things to have the experience that the higher you jump from the harder you land.

People like you, on the other hand, will accept it if a scientist were to tell you that you could jump of a twenty-story building and survive; because you treat personal experience as second-hand, when in fact the scientific articles are second-hand. A handy heuristic.

What a convenient straw-man you've constructed! "Treat personal experience as second-hand." Marvelous deception, but decidedly not what I have ever said. Listen, if the only way for you to know you can't breathe in space is to try, then, by all means. If the only way for you to know you'll be burned to a crisp if you jump in a fire, then, by all means, jump. I suggest, however, that you'll find most people both grasp and accept reasonable evidence and reasonable explanations rather than assuming it ain't real unless they do it themselves.

What in Ed's name are you smoking, anyway?

 

[Suggestologist]

What a convenient straw-man you've constructed! "Treat personal experience as second-hand." Marvelous deception, but decidedly not what I have ever said.

You've demonstrated your philosophy many times. I find it as stupid as ever.

Listen, if the only way for you to know you can't breathe in space is to try, then, by all means.

Actually, you can fly a plane into the atmosphere (or climb a mountain) and find out that there's less air the higher you go.

If the only way for you to know you'll be burned to a crisp if you jump in a fire, then, by all means, jump.

How many times did mommy tell you not to touch because it's hot? But you didn't really learn until you touched it once.

You don't have to jump into the water to find out that it's wet. You just have to put a toe in.

I suggest, however, that you'll find most people both grasp and accept reasonable evidence and reasonable explanations rather than assuming it ain't real unless they do it themselves.

What in Ed's name are you smoking, anyway?

People may accept working hypotheses from other people. But they don't actually believe anything until they experience it. They do not automatically respond with the full reality of things until it is experienced.

 

[Jeff Corey]

If I review an intro textbook that has this as an example of S-R conditioning, I leave the manuscript bleeding red ink. As this is just an internet forum, you are allowed a little more leeway. You can try again, or just admit you have not identified psychological squat.

Merc,
Give him a break - it's not a textbook. Wouldn't you give an Intro student at least half credit for that if the question was "Give an example of semantic respondent conditioning."?

 

[thaiboxerken]

If you can't place your skepticism to the side, then you're not secure in your scepticism. And you didn't actually try it if you didn't fully get into it. And if you were trying it with an incompetent practitioner, you weren't really trying it either.

I can't stop being skeptical, just like you can't stop being an idiot. It's a part of who I am. A skeptic looks for evidence, I sought it with Reiki, even though I had my doubts about it.


I can take it for a test drive and find out for myself.

No, I am saying that you will only be rewarded if you pay the money first. Why not be open and just buy the car?

That means I like personal experience. You couldn't convince me to buy it by showing me the specs. I wonder, have you ever bought a car without test driving it? I wouldn't be surprised.

I never have. What you are doing is being skeptical.. You are test driving the car. I "test drove" Reiki with this person. It seems to me that you are the one that wants me to buy before try (place skepticism to the side).


You think "placebo" means "trick". Just like you think "alternative medicine" means "not effective". Both wrong.

False. I do not think placebo means trick at all, and I made no such assertion. Please keep your strawmen inyour pocket.

Oh, I didn't say alternative medicine means "not effective" either. It means "not proven effective". There is a difference.

A closed personality leads to depressive boredom and paranoia.

I'm open to evidence.

 

[thaiboxerken]

You don't have to jump into the water to find out that it's wet. You just have to put a toe in.

This is all a skeptic is doing. I knew Reiki was BS before I even tried it, but still gave the guy a benefit of doubt. Oh, and yes, I have researched Reiki before. You just assumed that I hadn't. Even so, one does not need to research the magic of evles to realize that it's an absurd idea.

You really are not consistent with your "try it" criteria are you? I told you that I tried Reiki, but that wasn't enough for you because I didn't "place skepticism to the side". Howver........ taking a test drive IS skepticism in motion. Make up your freaking mind.

 

[Suggestologist]

If you can't place your skepticism to the side, then you're not secure in your scepticism. And you didn't actually try it if you didn't fully get into it. And if you were trying it with an incompetent practitioner, you weren't really trying it either.

I can't stop being skeptical, just like you can't stop being an idiot.

I can't stop being an idiot because it is you who are controlling the meaning of the word. Only YOU can stop me being an idiot.

Well, I suppose I could attempt to persuade you that it means something other than you think it means. But that's what this thread has been about, and look how well it's working.

Fact is, you can stop being skeptical and just go with it. You are the one controlling how skeptical you are toward any particular context; pay no attention to this remote control for that chip in your head I'm holding in my right hand. Just get an authentic sense for what it is. If you're secure in your skepticism, you can pick it back up at some specified point later on. People addicted to cigarettes are convinced that they could put one down and that they could still pick it back up at a later time, or start a new one.

It's a part of who I am. A skeptic looks for evidence, I sought it with Reiki, even though I had my doubts about it.

It used to be a part of who you were that you messed your diapers several times a day. You probably don't need Depends adult diapers yet, but you can put them on any time you wanted. There's absolutely nothing stopping you but your attitude.

"It's a part of who I am." is an excuse to not do something different. Temporary as it may be.

I can take it for a test drive and find out for myself.

No, I am saying that you will only be rewarded if you pay the money first. Why not be open and just buy the car?

I'm not open because your sales pitch is unattractive. I already have a car, what makes yours so special that it can't even be test driven before selling?

That means I like personal experience. You couldn't convince me to buy it by showing me the specs. I wonder, have you ever bought a car without test driving it? I wouldn't be surprised.

I never have. What you are doing is being skeptical.. You are test driving the car. I "test drove" Reiki with this person. It seems to me that you are the one that wants me to buy before try (place skepticism to the side).

No, it's more that I want you to test drive a couple more cars. And I want you to have fun as you do, and let go of skepticism thet this could really be your next car as you drive it.

You think "placebo" means "trick". Just like you think "alternative medicine" means "not effective". Both wrong.

False. I do not think placebo means trick at all, and I made no such assertion. Please keep your strawmen inyour pocket.

Oh, I didn't say alternative medicine means "not effective" either. It means "not proven effective". There is a difference.

Great. Does "not proven effective" mean "not likely effective" or "0.05% chance of ever being proven effective" or something like that?

A closed personality leads to depressive boredom and paranoia.

I'm open to evidence.

Well, that's the Reiki practitioner's job. I'm only interested in getting you to have an authentic experience on your test drives.

 

[Pyrrho]

The fact that You think you don't involve yourself in group insanity implies that you aren't sane.

Take a good look around you. They're all insane. And you're not discluded.

You may be more effective in writting, I just hope you keep in mind that sometimes writing cannot effect the things you want affected.

You can always pretend you're not yourself.

I may not know what is best for me, but I have a damned good idea what is bad for me. Participating in conversations about "the paranormal" is not good for me, and I am under no obligation to participate.

I don't worry about whether or not I'm effective in writing. When I write, my concern is whether or not I am saying what I want to say. How the reader reacts is beyond my control.

 

[michaellee]

How was the dinner? My skeptical views towards everything aside, If Liz can cook, and cook well enough for me to accept another invititation for dinner, I would hold my tongue during this first dinner, accept another invitation, and in the interim make my plan as to how to garner a third invite, and silence their beliefs simultaneously.