Hitchens- Romney’s Mormon Problem

[JudeBrando]

Romney’s Mormon Problem
Mitt Romney and the weird and sinister beliefs of Mormonism.

By Christopher Hitchens
Monday, Oct. 17, 2011

"I have no clear idea whether Pastor Robert Jeffress is correct in referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, more colloquially known as the Mormons, as “a cult.” There do seem to be one or two points of similarity. The Mormons have a supreme leader, known as the prophet or the president, whose word is allegedly supreme. They can be ordered to turn upon and shun any members who show any signs of backsliding. They have distinctive little practices, such as the famous underwear, to mark them off from other mortals, and they are said to be highly disciplined and continent when it comes to sex, booze, nicotine, and coffee. Word is that the church can be harder to leave than it was to join. Hefty donations and tithes are apparently appreciated from the membership.

Whether this makes it a cult, or just another of the born-in-America Christian sects, I am not sure. In any case what interests me more is the weird and sinister belief system of the LDS, discussion of which it is currently hoping to inhibit by crying that criticism of Mormonism amounts to bigotry."


"...The Mormons apparently believe that Jesus will return in Missouri rather than Armageddon: I wouldn’t care to bet on the likelihood of either. In the meanwhile, though, we are fully entitled to ask Mitt Romney about the forces that influenced his political formation and—since he comes from a dynasty of his church, and spent much of his boyhood and manhood first as a missionary and then as a senior lay official—it is safe to assume that the influence is not small. Unless he is to succeed in his dreary plan to borrow from the playbook of his pain-in-the-ass predecessor Michael Dukakis, and make this an election about "competence not ideology," he should be asked to defend and explain himself, and his voluntary membership in one of the most egregious groups operating on American soil."

 

[Robrob]

Plus he irritates the Jesus nuts...

 

[Brainster]

Any religion that is new is indistinguishable from a cult; any cult that is old is indistinguishable from a religion.

 

[Tricky]

Any religion that is new is indistinguishable from a cult; any cult that is old is indistinguishable from a religion.

No, they have to be popular. Druids are many centuries old, but are mostly considered a cult.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, they have to be popular. Druids are many centuries old, but are mostly considered a cult.

Also mormons have been willing to change their theology to keep up with the times, or at least not too far behind them. See letting black people in or ending polymarriage. I suspect that in 30 years they will allow gay marriage.

 

[Puppycow]

I think it's neither newness nor popularity that makes a cult a cult.

It has to do with the degree of domination and social control wielded the religious authority figure(s) over adherents. And this is not binary, but lies somewhere on a spectrum. All organized religions have some cultish aspects. The more totalitarian they are, the more they are a cult.

A fairly simple and objective way to measure this is to ask how much time per week adherents spend in religious activities or under the supervision of the religious authority figure(s). Generally, the more time spent, the more like a cult it is.

But it's also whether adherents are permitted to mix with unbelievers. Are children home-schooled or allowed to go to public schools? Some cults have "compounds" or other walled-in facilities from which permission to leave is controlled by the religious authority figure(s). That's very far down toward the cult end of the spectrum.

 

[Jaggy Bunnet]

Are children home-schooled or allowed to go to public schools?

What about religious schools provided as part of the public school system? Where to be a teacher in that school you need the approval of a religious authority figure? One of the wonderful features of the education systems in the UK.

 

[Puppycow]

What about religious schools provided as part of the public school system? Where to be a teacher in that school you need the approval of a religious authority figure? One of the wonderful features of the education systems in the UK.

Again, the more isolated they are from unbelievers, the more culty. It's further down the spectrum.

 

[MaGZ]

No, they have to be popular. Druids are many centuries old, but are mostly considered a cult.

If they had numbers and an established institution the Druids would be a considered a religion--if they refrained from human sacrifice.

 

[MaGZ]

Also mormons have been willing to change their theology to keep up with the times, or at least not too far behind them. See letting black people in or ending polymarriage. I suspect that in 30 years they will allow gay marriage.

What do you base this on? If I’m not mistaken tenants of the Mormon faith are to procreate, have large families and spread the religion.

 

[MaGZ]

I think it's neither newness nor popularity that makes a cult a cult.

It has to do with the degree of domination and social control wielded the religious authority figure(s) over adherents. And this is not binary, but lies somewhere on a spectrum. All organized religions have some cultish aspects. The more totalitarian they are, the more they are a cult.

A fairly simple and objective way to measure this is to ask how much time per week adherents spend in religious activities or under the supervision of the religious authority figure(s). Generally, the more time spent, the more like a cult it is.

But it's also whether adherents are permitted to mix with unbelievers. Are children home-schooled or allowed to go to public schools? Some cults have "compounds" or other walled-in facilities from which permission to leave is controlled by the religious authority figure(s). That's very far down toward the cult end of the spectrum.

If "domination and social control" are factors then the Catholic Church has to be considered a cult.

 

[cwalner]

What do you base this on? If I’m not mistaken tenants of the Mormon faith are to procreate, have large families and spread the religion.

Well, one of the basic tenants of Mormonism, that distinguishes it from other monotheist religions, is the acceptance of modern prophecy. This allows them to change their beliefs, rather than insisting on the perfection of a 2000 year old document.

 

[Cain]

The difference between a religion and a cult is power.

 

[Travis]

I think it's neither newness nor popularity that makes a cult a cult.

It has to do with the degree of domination and social control wielded the religious authority figure(s) over adherents. And this is not binary, but lies somewhere on a spectrum. All organized religions have some cultish aspects. The more totalitarian they are, the more they are a cult.

A fairly simple and objective way to measure this is to ask how much time per week adherents spend in religious activities or under the supervision of the religious authority figure(s). Generally, the more time spent, the more like a cult it is.

But it's also whether adherents are permitted to mix with unbelievers. Are children home-schooled or allowed to go to public schools? Some cults have "compounds" or other walled-in facilities from which permission to leave is controlled by the religious authority figure(s). That's very far down toward the cult end of the spectrum.

Mormons would do rather well in that regard then. They don't even have anything analogous to a Minister, Priest or Reverend. Talks during Sunday services are done by the regular congregation who take turns speaking on various subjects. They don't have "compounds" and almost all Mormon kids go to public schools.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Mormons would do rather well in that regard then. They don't even have anything analogous to a Minister, Priest or Reverend. Talks during Sunday services are done by the regular congregation who take turns speaking on various subjects. They don't have "compounds" and almost all Mormon kids go to public schools.

But they do audit their members to make sure they get their proper cut.

 

[varwoche]

Mormons would do rather well in that regard then. They don't even have anything analogous to a Minister, Priest or Reverend. Talks during Sunday services are done by the regular congregation who take turns speaking on various subjects. They don't have "compounds" and almost all Mormon kids go to public schools.

Whitewash and a half. There are Bishops, there is mind control, there are layers of secrecy, and members who go astray are dealt with most harshly. It's the most cult-like major religion, outdone only by Scientology.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Druids are many centuries old, but are mostly considered a cult.

That's because no one knows who they were, or what they were doing.

 

[Travis]

Whitewash and a half. There are Bishops, there is mind control, there are layers of secrecy, and members who go astray are dealt with most harshly. It's the most cult-like major religion, outdone only by Scientology.

Really? Because everyone knows I'm now an atheist and none of them have ever done anything but treat me with respect. Nor have I ever seen any of the other behaviors you made up described.

And Bishops are hardly even paid anything. And they only serve for a few years. And they don't preach on Sundays.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Really? Because everyone knows I'm now an atheist and none of them have ever done anything but treat me with respect. Nor have I ever seen any of the other behaviors you made up described.

You and my brother are almost identical. He comes from a large and mostly devout conservative mormon family but is now a liberal atheist (he's even switched to Apple computers). We have not shunned him. He still attends family gatherings, even ones held in chapels and stake centers.

He is my brother first, liberal/atheist/mac user and whatever else he wants to be second.

 

[Minoosh]

My 87-year-old mom who I consider bedrock Republican base is convinced a Mormon can't and shouldn't be elected president. But when I ask why, she really can't explain it, except to say that Mormons are out for Mormons - whatever other loyalties they have, their first one is to the Mormon Church.

She's not an evangelical, either. She just seems to not like Mormons.