Historical Jesus

Jerrymander · Jul 5, 2020

IanS said:
So where does my post "only shout forgery"?

Do I have to ask you a third time?

Or are you going to admit that your claim was (as usual) completely untrue.

Okay then. I was wrong on that. I can't admit that unlike you.

dejudge · Jul 5, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Paul wants to be seen as an independent and equal apostle and not inferior to people like Peter and James so of course he stresses he got the news from Jesus directly. Paul has an inferiority complex about not knowing Jesus when he was alive. The fact that he mentions James as an afterthought is actually evidence that he did meet him, since he does not stress that point. He states this just after claiming how independent he is and he didn't meet with the other apostles but begrudging admits it he meet James. That's also a reason why he wouldn't ask James about Jesus. But if he did, he certainly wouldn't tell the Galatians that since it ruins his claim of independence. As for the interpolation, there's no reason why a later Christian would add such an unremarkable statement that serves no apologetic purpose.

Your post precisely shows the problem with the multiple writers claiming to be Paul.

The Pauline writers did not have an inferior complex but were pathological liars.

The Pauline writers claimed to have received information direct from their resurrected Lord, which are obvious lies, in order to appear to be an independent authoritative source for their teachings about the Lord Jesus.

No-one has ever received direct information about supposed historical events in the past from a dead body.

In Galatians, the Pauline writer in his haste to appear authoritative lied about James the LORD's brother.

Christians exposed the Pauline writers as liars when multiple writers of antiquity admitted their Lord Jesus had no brother called the apostle James.

1. Papias, a supposed early Christian writer implied James the apostle was not the brother of the Lord Jesus.

See http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html

2. In apocryphal writings, the Apocalypse of James, the Lord Jesus himself admitted he was not the brother of James.

http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsejames1st.html

3. Jerome in "De Viris Illustribus" claimed James was not the brother of the Lord Jesus.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2708.htm

4. In the Epistles the LORD is God Creator - a supernatural being. See Colossians 1.

The Pauline writings are a pack of lies - non-historical garbage fabricated no earlier than the late 2nd century.

Delvo · Jul 5, 2020

Here is a website that puts the stories in the four Gospels in a grid so the versions of each one can be compared side by side. (If you want to look through it yourself, note that there is a link at the bottom to page 2.) Some are mentioned more than once, but I copied them into a spreadsheet & sorted them first so I could eliminate redundancies.

That is not a character who's primarily defined by just being god-like all the time. It just isn't.

...not even if you pretend that the magic tricks really fall into the god-like category too even though they were just part of the routine preacher schtick because they were thought of at the time as things humans could do. Even counting up that combination instead of only the bits that were really thought of as beyond humans, which would be dishonestly trying to skew the "supernatural" numbers high, would still add up to not much compared to the amount of just traveling & talking & having Earthly corporeal things done to him & being the subject of other people's reactions.

dejudge · Jul 5, 2020

Delvo said:
Here is a website that puts the stories in the four Gospels in a grid so the versions of each one can be compared side by side. (If you want to look through it yourself, note that there is a link at the bottom to page 2.) Some are mentioned more than once, but I copied them into a spreadsheet & sorted them first so I could eliminate redundancies.

Gospel story | What was Jesus doing
The Promise of the Birth of John the Baptist|nothing
"Abide in My Love"|talking
"Before Abraham was, I am"|talking
"Behold the Man!"|getting talking about
"Come unto Me"|talking
"He who has Ears to Hear, Let him Hear"|talking
"He who Hears You, Hears Me"|talking
"I am the Good Shepherd"|talking
"I am the Light of the World"|talking
"If Any Man would Come after Me"|talking
"Let Not Your Hearts be Troubled"|talking
"The Truth will Make You Free"|talking
"Where Two or Three are Gathered Together"|talking
A Blind Man is Healed at Bethsaida|magic trick
A Warning against Herod|talking
Against Seeking Signs, the Sign of Jonah|talking
Agreement with One's Accuser|talking
Anxieties about Earthly Things|talking
Children of the Devil|talking
Commissioning the Seventy|talking
Commissioning the Twelve|talking
Concerning Divorce|talking
Concerning Light|talking
Concerning the Law|talking
Conclusion. "Take Heed, Watch!"|talking
Conditions of Discipleship|talking
Continuation of Journey|traveling
Decision to Go to Jerusalem|planning to travel
Departure to Judea|traveling
Discourses against the Pharisees and Lawyers|talking
Discussion with the Jews|talking
Division among the Jews again|talking
Division among the People regarding Jesus|talking
Division in Households|talking
Divisions within Households|talking
Encouragement and Answer to Prayer|talking
Exclusion from the Kingdom, the Straight Gate|talking
Exhortation to Fearless Confession|talking
False Christs and False Prophets|talking
Feeding of the Four Thousand|magic trick
Feeding the Five Thousand|magic trick
First Preaching Tour in Galilee|traveling
God's Answering of Prayer|talking
Greeks Seek Jesus; Discourse on His Death|talking
Healing and Cleansing of the Leper|magic tricks
Healing of the Demoniac in the Synagogue|magic tricks
Healings at Gennesaret|magic tricks
Herod Thinks Jesus is John, Raised |getting thought about
Interpretation of the Parable of the Sower|talking
Interpretation of the Parable of the Tares|talking
Interpreting the Times|talking
Jairus's Daughter and the Woman with a Hemorrhage|magic tricks
Jesus and the Sons of Zebedee; Precedence among the Disciples|talking
Jesus Appears to His Disciples (Thomas being Absent)|talking
Jesus Appears to His Disciples (Thomas being Present)|talking
Jesus Appears to His Disciples by the Sea of Tiberias|talking
Jesus Appears to the Eleven on a Mountain in Galilee|talking
Jesus Appears to the Eleven While They Sit at Table|talking
Jesus Appears to the Women|talking
Jesus Appears to Two on the Way to Emmaus|talking
Jesus Arrested|getting arrested
Jesus at the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem|talking
Jesus before Herod|talking
Jesus before the Sanhedrin (Peter's Denial)|talking
Jesus Blesses the Children|talking
Jesus Delivered to Pilate|getting delivered
Jesus Departs from Capernaurn|traveling
Jesus Derided on the Cross|getting derided
Jesus Foretells His Betrayal|talking
Jesus Foretells His Passion|talking
Jesus Foretells His Passion again|talking
Jesus Heals a Boy Possessed by a Spirit|magic trick
Jesus Heals a Deaf Mute and Many Others|magic tricks
Jesus Heals Multitudes by the Sea|magic tricks
Jesus Heals the Man Born Blind|magic trick
Jesus in Gethsemane|praying
Return to Bethany|traveling
Jesus is Rejected at Nazareth|getting rejected
Jesus is Rejected by Samaritans|getting rejected
Jesus is Thought to be Beside Himself|getting thought about
Jesus Mocked by the Soldiers|getting mocked
Jesus or Barabbas?|getting picked for death
Jesus Remains in Galilee|remaining
Jesus Retires to Ephraim|traveling
Jesus the True Vine|talking
Jesus Weeps over Jerusalem|weeping
Jesus Withdraws across the Jordan|traveling
Jesus's Death is Premeditated|talking
Jesus's Lament over Jerusalem|lamenting
Jesus's Ministry in Jerusalem|talking
Jesus's Ministry in Judea|talking
Jesus's Preaching at Nazareth|talking
Jesus's Side Pierced|getting pierced
Jesus's Thanksgiving to the Father|talking
Jesus's Thanksgiving to the Father, and the Blessedness of the Disciples|talking
Jesus's True Kindred Relatives |talking
Jesus's Use of Parables|talking
Jesus's Witness concerning John|talking
John Preaching and Replies to Questioners|nothing
John the Baptist|nothing
John the Baptist's Question and Jesus's Answer|talking
John's Messianic Preaching|nothing
John's Preaching of Repentance|nothing
John's Testimony to Christ|nothing
Journey to Jerusalem in Secret|traveling
Judgment by the Word|talking
Many Disciples Take Offense at Jesus|talking
Mary and Martha|nothing
Mary's Visit to Elizabeth|nothing
Ministry in Galilee|talking
Not Every One who "Says Lord, Lord" shall Enter into the Kingdom|talking
Occasion of the Sermon|talking
On Adultery and Divorce|talking
On Almsgiving|talking
On Anxiety|talking
On Collusion with Satan|talking
On Divorce and Celibacy|talking
On Faith|talking
On Faithfulness in What is Least|talking
On Fasting|talking
On Following Jesus, the Would-be Followers |talking
On Forgiveness|talking
On Judging|talking
On Love of One's Enemies|talking
On Murder and Anger |talking
On Paying Tribute to Caesar|talking
On Persecutions|talking
On Prayer|talking
On Profaning the Holy|talking
On Reconciliation|talking
On Reproving One's Brother|talking
On Retaliation|talking
On Riches and the Rewards of Discipleship|talking
On Serving Two Masters|talking
On Swearing and Oaths|talking
On the Coming of the Kingdom of God|talking
On the Law and the Prophets|talking
On Treasures|talking
Payment of the Temple Tax|talking
Persecutions Foretold|talking
Peter's Confession at Caesarea Philippi|nothing
Peter's Denial|nothing
Peter's Denial Predicted|talking
Pilate Declares Jesus Innocent|getting declared innocent
Pilate Delivers Jesus to be Crucified|getting delivered
Plucking Grain on the Sabbath|talking
Prayer in the Name of Jesus|talking
Precedence among the Disciples and the Reward of Discipleship|talking
Prediction of the Destruction of the Temple|talking
Prediction of the Disciples' Flight|talking
Preparation for the Passover|talking
Repentance or Destruction (the Parable of the Barren Fig Tree)|talking
Rewards of Discipleship|talking
Second Journey to Jerusalem|talking
Signs before the End|talking
Sorrow Turned to Joy|talking
Stilling the Storm|using cosmic power
Teaching in the Synagogue at Capernaum|talking
Teaching in the Temple|talking
Teaching on Humility|talking
The Adoration of the Infant Jesus|getting adored
The Annunciation|nothing
The Anointing in Bethany|talking
The Appendix to John. Jesus at the Sea of Tiberias:|talking
The Assistance of the Holy Spirit|talking
The Baptism of Jesus|getting baptized
The Beatitudes|talking
The Beelzebub Controversy|talking
The Betrayal by Judas|getting betrayed
The Birth of Jesus|getting born
The Birth of John the Baptist|nothing
The Boy Jesus in the Temple|talking
The Bread of Life|talking
The Burial of Jesus|being dead
The Call of Levi (Matthew)|talking
The Call of the Disciples|talking
The Call of the First Disciples|talking
The Centurion of Capernaum and his Servant |magic trick
The Chief Priests and Pharisees Take Counsel against Jesus|getting talked about
The Chief Priests and Scribes Conspire against Jesus|getting conspired against
The Childhood of Jesus at Nazareth|growing up
The Choosing of the Twelve|talking
The Circumcision and Presentation in the Temple|getting circumcized
The Cleansing of the Leper|magic trick
The Cleansing of the Ten Lepers|magic tricks
The Coming Fate and Persecution of the Disciples|talking
The Coming of Elijah|using cosmic power
The Coming of the Son of Man|talking
The Cost and Conditions of Discipleship|talking
The Crucifixion|getting killed
The Cursing of the Fig Tree|talking & magic
The Day of the Son of Man|talking
The Death of Jesus|dying
The Death of John the Baptist|nothing
The Death of Judas|nothing
The Desolating Sacrilege|talking
The Discourse with Nicodemus|talking
The Discourse with the Woman of Samaria|talking
The Dumb Demoniac Healed |magic tricks
The Ending of Luke. Jesus's Last Words and Ascension|using cosmic power
The Ending of Matthew. The Great Commission|talking
The First Cleansing of the Temple|whipping
The First Journey to Jerusalem|traveling
The Flight into Egypt and Return|traveling
The Gadarene Demoniacs|magic tricks
The Genealogy of Jesus|Being descended from human ancestors
The Gerasene Demoniac|magic trick
The Gift of Peace|talking
The Golden Rule|talking
The Great Commandment|talking
The Guard at the Tomb|being dead
The Harvest is Great|talking
The Healing at the Pool called Bethesda |magic trick
The Healing of Peter's Mother-in-law|magic trick
The Healing of the Blind Men (Bartimaeus)|magic tricks
The Healing of the Crippled Woman on the Sabbath|magic trick
The Healing of the Man with Dropsy|magic trick
The Healing of the Paralytic|magic trick
The House Built upon the Rock|talking
The Importunate Friend at Midnight|talking
The Imprisonment of John|nothing
The Intercessory Prayer|talking
The Journey into Galilee|traveling
The Lament over Jerusalem|talking
The Last Judgment|talking
The Last Supper|talking
The Lawyer's Question|talking
The Leaven (Yeast) of the Pharisees |talking
The Lesson from the Withered Fig Tree|talking
The Light of the World|talking
The Lord's Prayer|talking
The Man with the Withered Hand|magic trick
The Marriage at Cana|talking
The Ministering Women|talking
The Ministry of Jesus in Jerusalem|talking
The Miraculous Catch of Fish|magic or cosmic power
The New Commandment of Love|talking
The Parable of Salt|talking
The Parable of the Flood and Exhortation to Watchfulness|talking
The Parable of the Good Samaritan|talking
The Parable of the Good Servant and the Wicked Servant|talking
The Parable of the Great Supper|talking
The Parable of the Great Wedding Dinner|talking
The Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard|talking
The Parable of the Leaven (Yeast) |talking
The Parable of the Lost Coin|talking
The Parable of the Lost Sheep|talking
The Parable of the Mustard Seed|talking
The Parable of the Net|talking
The Parable of the Pounds|talking
The Parable of the Prodigal Son and his Brother |talking
The Parable of the Rich Fool|talking
The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus|talking
The Parable of the Seed Growing Secretly|talking
The Parable of the Sower|talking
The Parable of the Talents|talking
The Parable of the Tares (Weeds) |talking
The Parable of the Ten Virgins|talking
The Parable of the Two Sons|talking
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant|talking
The Parable of the Unjust Steward|talking
The Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen|talking
The Parable of the Widow and Unjust Judge|talking
The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and of the Pearl|talking
The Pharisee and the Publican|getting talked about
The Pharisees Reproved|talking
The Pharisees Seek a Sign|talking
The Plot against Lazarus|nothing
The Poor Widow's Gift of two Mites |talking
The Promise of the Paraclete|talking
The Question about David's Son|talking
The Question about Fasting|talking
The Question about Jesus's Authority|talking
The Question about the Resurrection|talking
The Raising of Lazarus|using cosmic power
The Reason for Speaking in Parables|talking
The Report of the Guard|getting talked about
The Return of the Apostles|nothing
The Return of the Seventy|nothing
The Return of the Unclean Evil Spirit|nothing
The Rich Young Man|talking
The Road to Golgotha|traveling
The Salt of the Earth|talking
The Sick Healed at Evening|magic
The Sign of Jonah|talking
The Sin against the Holy Spirit|talking
The Sojourn at Capernaum|traveling
The Sound Eye|talking
The Straight and Narrow and Wide Broad Gate |talking
The Strange Exorcist|talking
The Syrophoenician (Canaanite) Woman|magic trick
The Temptation|getting tempted
The Test of a Good Person, "By their Fruits"|talking
The Third Prediction of the Passion|talking
The Time of the Coming. The Parable of the Fig Tree|talking
The Transfiguration|using cosmic power
The Trial before Pilate|getting tried
The Triumphal Entry into Jerusalem |traveling
The Two Swords|talking
The Two Thieves|talking
The Unbelief of the People|getting unbelieved
The Walking on the Water|magic or cosmic power
The Widow's Son at Nain|using cosmic power
The Witness of the Paraclete|talking
The Woes|talking
The Woman Caught in Adultery|talking
The Woman with the Ointment|talking
The Women at the Tomb|using cosmic power
The Work of the Paraclete|talking
The World's Hatred|talking
Treasures in Heaven|talking
Treasures New and Old|talking
True Blessedness|talking
True Greatness|talking
Two Blind Men Healed |magic tricks
Warning against Greed for Wealth |talking
Warning against Offenses|talking
Warnings concerning Temptations|talking
Washing the Disciples' Feet|washing
Watchfulness and Faithfulness|talking
We are Unprofitable Servants|talking
What Defiles a Person - Traditional and Real|talking
Witnesses of the Crucifixion|getting witnessed
Woe to the Scribes and Pharisees|talking
Woes Pronounced on Galilean Cities|talking
Zacchaeus|talking with maybe a little speck of magic

That is not a character who's primarily defined by just being god-like all the time. It just isn't.

...not even if you pretend that the magic tricks, which were thought of at the time as things humans could do and preachers routinely did because that was just part of the preacher schtick, really fall into the god-like category too. Even counting up that combination instead of only the bits that were thought of as beyond humans, which would be dishonestly trying to skew the "supernatural" numbers high, would still add up to not much compared to the amount of just traveling & talking & having Earthly corporeal things done to him & being the subject of other people's reactions.

What a load of crap you posted.

In the very first chapters of gMatthew and gLuke their Jesus is introduced as the son of a Ghost so accounts of him in those Gospels are those of the Ghost man.

gJohn in the first chapter and first two verses introduced his Jesus as God Creator so all events with his character are those about God Creator.

gMark in the first chapter introduced Jesus as the Son of God when it was so announced by a voice from heaven during his supposed baptism.

The Gospels are about a supernatural being, God Creator, the son of God born of a Ghost who was crucified, resurrected and ascended to heaven in a cloud.

IanS · Jul 5, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Jesus wasn't the only person whose actions were framed as supernatural or prophesied. Ever heard of Alexander the Great?

Well none of those people are comparable to Jesus.

For a start, although in these numerous HJ threads, Roman Emperors, Alexander the Great, Socrates, Pythagoras and several others have all been offered as examples of people who were said to have performed supernatural feats, all of those people were actually famous entirely for the perfectly ordinary human things that they were said to have done. None of them were famous at all for any supernatural claims about them.

Whereas Jesus is famous only for the claimed supernatural stories. He would not be known at all, and indeed was not known at all, for any ordinary human activities.

As it happens, although Alexander the Great is often trotted out by Christian apologists and others as an example of someone comparable to Jesus, in fact it is apparently true that there is abundant evidence of all types for the reality of Alexander the Great; see the link below for example which goes into great detail about it -

https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2...existence-of-alexander-the-great-quite-a-lot/

But even if there were no genuinely reliable evidence of Alexander the Great, or Julius Caesar, or Socrates (to mention the three names most often produced by HJ believers in these threads), that would not matter at all; not one iota. Because firstly – none of those people have any bearing or consequence on the lives of the billions of ordinary members of the public alive today - whether they existed or not has no relevance at all for the lives of people today. And secondly, all of those individuals are remembered for the entirely human things that were said to have been done in their name, i.e. fighting all sorts of famous battles, having all sorts of cities and monuments built, having all sorts of other famous people executed, producing all sorts of famous philosophical theories etc., where the undeniable fact is that some real person or persons definitely were responsible for those very real things (whether it was actually done by individuals named Caesar, or Alexander, or Socrates does not matter... because it is a fact that someone at that time definitely did do all of those things).

That is a whole world of difference between those individuals vs. Jesus. In the case of Jesus, either none of things that he was said to have done in the bible ever really happened (they were all tales of the supernaturally impossible), or else in one or two stories like the Lords Supper the mundane part of the story (i.e. just having supper) has zero evidence for it ever taking place (unlike all the battles, buildings and philosophical theories, all of which are definitely real with abundant clear evidence).

So in summary – Jesus is not remotely like figures such as Alexander the Great or Caesar or Socrates. And the comparison is simply fraudulent.

And before you point it out – yes I know that above link also lists Jesus as someone that the author thinks definitely existed, but he is completely wrong if he thinks the evidence for Jesus is in any way comparable to his evidence of Alexander the Great. He will not, for example, be able to produce any such evidence for the reality of Jesus (and that has been shown beyond all doubt by the 12 years or more and the tens of thousands of posts produced in all of these HJ threads … ie, zero evidence and still waiting).

Jerrymander · Jul 5, 2020

IanS said:
Whereas Jesus is famous only for the claimed supernatural stories. He would not be known at all, and indeed was not known at all, for any ordinary human activities.

Being baptised and crucified are very human things. Jesus being crucified has been his story from the beginning.

Jerrymander · Jul 5, 2020

dejudge said:
Your post precisely shows the problem with the multiple writers claiming to be Paul.

The Pauline writers did not have an inferior complex but were pathological liars.

The Pauline writers claimed to have received information direct from their resurrected Lord, which are obvious lies, in order to appear to be an independent authoritative source for their teachings about the Lord Jesus.

No-one has ever received direct information about supposed historical events in the past from a dead body.

In Galatians, the Pauline writer in his haste to appear authoritative lied about James the LORD's brother.

Christians exposed the Pauline writers as liars when multiple writers of antiquity admitted their Lord Jesus had no brother called the apostle James.

1. Papias, a supposed early Christian writer implied James the apostle was not the brother of the Lord Jesus.

See http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/papias.html

2. In apocryphal writings, the Apocalypse of James, the Lord Jesus himself admitted he was not the brother of James.

http://earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsejames1st.html

3. Jerome in "De Viris Illustribus" claimed James was not the brother of the Lord Jesus.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2708.htm

4. In the Epistles the LORD is God Creator - a supernatural being. See Colossians 1.

The Pauline writings are a pack of lies - non-historical garbage fabricated no earlier than the late 2nd century.

Paul's writings were the early 50s. Long before Christians tried to downplay James. You can deny it all you want but you're wrong End of Story.

IanS · Jul 5, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Okay then. I was wrong on that. I can't admit that unlike you.

Well, good. Except that you just had to go and spoil it with yet another disparaging remark. And one that is again not true. I am perfectly happy to admit when I am wrong ..

.. in fact I often go out of my way to say that I might be wrong even when people have not put any such suggestion to me.

But just as another example, both you and Delvo have accused me of dishonesty (and repeatedly accused of lying in Delvo's posts). But that is completely untrue - you will not find any trace of dishonesty or any lies in any of my posts. Just because you disagree with what I've said does not make it dishonest lies (and nor does it make it dishonesty or lies just because you think I have missed your point) ... and of course we can do without such ridiculous accusations here, otherwise we might as well all just be accusing everyone of lying in every possible post. In fact that's exactly the sort of thing that makes honest decent people drop out of threads like this when other posters start repeatedly accusing others of lying .. we can't be bothered wasting our time listening to trash-talk like that.

Of course the problem in this thread is that you are not willing to consider that you might be wrong to believe that (for example) the mere fact that people wrote gospels and letters about Jesus is actually evidence of some kind to show Jesus was probably real ... you see that constantly in these threads from HJ posters where they say something like "well the gospels may not be very good evidence, but they are at least some evidence" ... but of course that does not follow at all - just because people wrote stories saying Jesus did X. Y & Z, that in itself is not any kind of evidence for the stories being true.

theheno · Jul 5, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Paul's writings were the early 50s. Long before Christians tried to downplay James. You can deny it all you want but you're wrong End of Story.

Capitalised End of story, brilliant

GDon · Jul 5, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Paul wants to be seen as an independent and equal apostle and not inferior to people like Peter and James so of course he stresses he got the news from Jesus directly.

Paul got his "Gentiles" gospel message -- that the Gentiles were part of God's salvation through Jesus -- through a vision of Jesus. Peter had been given 'the gospel to the circumsized'. But Galatians confirm that, other than perhaps the 'Gentiles' gospel message, what Paul was preaching was the same as what the James/Peter group was preaching.

Gal 1:22 And I was still unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
1:23 but they only heard say, He that once persecuted us now preacheth the faith of which he once made havoc

So:
1. Paul starts persecuting the early 'Christians' (who were at that time observant Jews)
2. Paul has a vision where Jesus gives Paul the 'good news' about the Gentiles being part of God's salvation plan.
3. Paul starts preaching the same thing as the Jewish Christians, i.e. that Jesus was God's Christ, and his resurrection indicated that the general resurrection of the dead -- and thus the end of the world -- was nigh
4. The Jewish Christians are astonished that Paul, whom had been persecuting the Jewish Christians, now preached the same thing that they did.

Jerrymander said:
Paul has an inferiority complex about not knowing Jesus when he was alive. The fact that he mentions James as an afterthought is actually evidence that he did meet him, since he does not stress that point.

I think Paul does stress the point, although obliquely. Even though Paul claims he got his "Gentiles" gospel directly from Jesus, he is still concerned by what James and Peter think, suggesting that the James group somehow had priority in determining the truth about Jesus:

Gal 2:1 Then after the space of fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas... and I laid before them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles but privately before them who were of repute, lest by any means I should be running, or had run, in vain.

So Paul was concerned that James and Peter could somehow reject Paul's gospel message, even though Paul felt that he got it directly from the Risen Jesus. Whatever knowledge Paul had, he felt that he needed to get James and Peter's approval for his own 'Gentiles' gospel message.

Jerrymander said:
He states this just after claiming how independent he is and he didn't meet with the other apostles but begrudging admits it he meet James. That's also a reason why he wouldn't ask James about Jesus. But if he did, he certainly wouldn't tell the Galatians that since it ruins his claim of independence.

I think that Paul DID have discussions with James and Peter about Jesus. As Paul wrote, this was done in private. But I suspect that it wasn't about what Jesus said and did, as per the Gospels. That became important when Christianity became its own religion a century later. But at that time, the importance was about the gospel message: what did Jesus's death mean, and who did it impact? Paul tells us that that was the topic of discussion:

Gal 2:1 ... I laid before them the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles... lest by any means I should be running, or had run, in vain...
2:6 ... they, I say, who were of repute imparted nothing to me:
2:7 but contrariwise, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, even as Peter with the gospel of the circumcision2:8 (for he that wrought for Peter unto the apostleship of the circumcision wrought for me also unto the Gentiles);
2:9 and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision;

(The above reads a bit like James and Peter were trying to dismiss Paul, saying "yeah, whatever Paul. Just go away. Leave us to preach to the Jews."

)

Even though Paul dismisses them as "reputed to be pillars", note that he still wants their approval for his "Gentile" gospel, and he wants the Galatians to know that they did approve of this "Gentile" gospel message. Paul is "who cares what those Pillars think??? But I'm going to go to Jerusalem and lay out my 'Gentiles' gospel privately", followed by "Yes, look, Galatians! They approved of me!"

I have to say that there seems to be a mental block in place to a lot of mythicists on this board. They can't seem to get over the idea that early Christians didn't have the same obsession about Jesus's life that later Christians had. The 'Christians' of Paul's time were Jews and to them Jesus was the Christ, bringing in the end of times. He wasn't some miracle-worker starting a new religion. It was his death that was important, not life. The early epistles tell us that numerous times.

Now, that's true regardless of whether you think that Jesus was historical or mythical. I know many think that Paul created modern Christianity, but I think it was the Gospel of Mark and the dying-off of those Jewish Christians who thought Jesus returning was just around the corner. It was the Gospel of Mark and the other Gospels that turned Jesus from a figure whose death signals the end of the existing world, to one whose life and preachings was the start of a new world.

Jerrymander said:
As for the interpolation, there's no reason why a later Christian would add such an unremarkable statement that serves no apologetic purpose.

Yes, that's a good point. It's a bit of a rabbit-hole when it comes to mythicist reasoning, I've found. Did a later Christian put it in because they thought that James was an actual brother? Then the natural reading seems to support that the passage was referring to an actual brother. Or did Paul write the passage himself and meant a fellow-Christian? Then why propose an interpolation? And if it was an interpolation, why did a later Christian feel he had to put that passage in about a fellow Christian?

You wind up with "If Paul wrote it, then it refers to a fellow-Christian. But if a later Christian interpolator added it, then it means an actual brother. And both can be true(!) according to some mythicists, because the meaning of 'brother of the Lord' somehow changed from the time Paul wrote it to the time the later interpolator wrote it.' Which is unsupported by any evidence as far as I know.

Add to that that later Christians had issues with the perpetual virgin-hood of Mary, James' role in early Christianity being down-played in the next century, etc, that you have to wonder when it is proposed the interpolator added the passage, and what the textual evidence for that actually is.

Of course, we can all speculate about what happened. It comes down to what the data tells us. That Jesus had a brother called James is documented in a number of sources. That this became a problem for early Christianity when Mary eventually became a virgin is also documented. That's the starting point.

theheno · Jul 5, 2020

Ok hands up anybody that has posted here that would genuinely be happy to have their mind changed.

Darat · Jul 6, 2020

theheno said:
Ok hands up anybody that has posted here that would genuinely be happy to have their mind changed.

Me. Had it changed once so it is definitely not fixed in concrete.

GDon · Jul 6, 2020

theheno said:
Ok hands up anybody that has posted here that would genuinely be happy to have their mind changed.

It doesn't matter the topic: people on my side of the debate are genuinely convinced through evidence and clear thinking. It's the people on the other side of the debate who are hopelessly biased.

Hands up if you agree!

The problem on this thread isn't that someone is not happy to have their mind changed. It's that we often have no common ground for the debate in the first place. Do we need credible evidence that someone actually meat Jesus? Is it meaningful to talk about a historical 'supernatural' Jesus? Does Paul describe Jesus as a man and is that important to the debate?

If one side thinks 'yes' and the other thinks 'no', then we will just keep talking past each other. And that's what's happening on this thread. Framing the debate in the first place so that both parties are on the same understanding with regards to what the topic is about is a requirement before the debate can occur. Since it won't happen here, this thread will go on forever. Maybe the next thread will establish this at its start.

Here is what happens if common understanding is not established beforehand (2 mins 51 secs):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXpmHuCE9Ls

Edited to add: I just noticed I wrote "Do we need credible evidence that someone actually meat Jesus?" Seems a suitable slip-of-the-tongue!

dejudge · Jul 6, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Paul's writings were the early 50s. Long before Christians tried to downplay James. You can deny it all you want but you're wrong End of Story.

Not true. You have no evidence whatsoever that any Epistle in the NT was written in the early 50's.- absolutely nothing.

You can't deny that Christian writers of antiquity contradicted the claim that James was the Lord's brother.

You can't deny that the Lord was God Creator in the Epistles.

No NT writer mentioned anything about Epistles of Paul to any Church anywhere at any time.

The earliest manuscripts of the Epistles P46 are dated by paleography between the 2nd and 3rd century.

The character called Paul was a manufactured convert.

The fabrication of the convert called Paul is found in Acts.
No such convert ever existed at any time.

The Pauline writings are non-historical garbage fabricated no earlier than the 2nd century to deceive their readers.

dejudge · Jul 6, 2020

GDon said:
Paul got his "Gentiles" gospel message -- that the Gentiles were part of God's salvation through Jesus -- through a vision of Jesus. Peter had been given 'the gospel to the circumsized'. But Galatians confirm that, other than perhaps the 'Gentiles' gospel message, what Paul was preaching was the same as what the James/Peter group was preaching......

Again, the Pauline writer is found to be a liar.

There is no claim anywhere in the NT that Peter had been given the Gospel to the circumcised by their Jesus.

In the fables called Gospels, Peter was told by Jesus he would be the foundation, the rock, of his church.

In the Great Commission all the apostles were commissioned to preach the Gospel to ALL nations.

Examine gMatthew 16.

Matthew 16:18

And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Examine gMatthew 28.

Matthew 28:19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost..

Christian writers claimed their Peter was preaching in Rome c 43 CE around 20 years before the supposed Paul arrived there as a prisoner c 63 CE.

In Acts, Peter preached to non-Jews on the day of Pentecost.

The Pauline writings are just a pack of lies. The writers claims about Peter are contradicted or without corroboration in and out the NT.

dejudge · Jul 6, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Being baptised and crucified are very human things. Jesus being crucified has been his story from the beginning.

A story that the son of a Ghost was baptized and crucified does not make the character a human being just like the Devil was not human because he talked to Jesus, the son of the Ghost, at the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Tassman · Jul 6, 2020

dejudge said:
Christian writers admitted the Jesus Christian cult originated with a Gospel story that God came down from heaven and lived in a daughter of man and those who believed that story were called Christians. See Aristides Apology.

Aristides was a second century Greek apologist. What would he know?

Jesus was always a supernatural being - a God/man.

This is your unevidenced assumption. The actual evidence is that the magic-man Jesus concept evolved over time.

It has been proven that the existing copy of Tacitus' Annals 15.44 was manipulated.

Incorrect. “Tacitus is generally regarded as one of the finest Roman historians. He mentioned Jesus once in his Annals (15:38-45) when he describes how Nero deflects accusations from himself on the fire of Rome and instead blames the fire on the Christians. In describing this, Tacitus gives a short historical background to these ‘Christians’.”

https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/...us-provide-independent-testimony-about-jesus/

Tacitus did not write about Christians.

Well he did. See above.

All Scholars do not agree that Jesus existed as a man.

Even Robert M. Price (an atheist biblical scholar who denies the existence of Jesus) acknowledges that his “personal view runs against the views of virtually all scholars of the period who agree that Jesus the man existed”.

Many, many Christian Bible Scholars [most likely in the thousands] agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a God/ man, [the son of God born of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin].

The vast amount of Christian Bible Scholars even worship Jesus of Nazareth as a God and pray to him for their salvation so that they can go to heaven.

Many do certainly, but many do not. You are dishonestly attributing your own notions to ALL scholars. Why the neurotic obsession and disregard of demonstrable facts? You do the cause of us atheists no service at all.

The Christian cult started when people of antiquity believed the story that God came down from heaven and lived in the daughter of man.

The virgin birth of Jesus is only mentioned in two gospels written approximately 90 years after the alleged event. ‘God living in the daughter of man’ clearly wasn’t the defining event of Christianity. Most probably the earliest followers knew nothing of this obviously mythical tale, which in any event was quite commonplace among gods in this superstitious era of magic, miracles and wonders.

dejudge · Jul 6, 2020

Tassman said:
Aristides was a second century Greek apologist. What would he know?

If Aristides, supposedly living in the 2nd century did not know how the Jesus cult of Christians originated how would you know in the year 2020?

An atheist told you?

[

Tassman said:
This is your unevidenced assumption. The actual evidence is that the magic-man Jesus concept evolved over time.

No, not at all.

Christian writers stated the Jesus cult of Christians originated with the story that God came down from heaven and lived in the daughter of man and that their Jesus was born of a Ghost and a Virgin without a human father.

Christian writers also stated that it was agreed that Jesus was of a spiritual nature but his flesh was questionable. Some Christians claimed their Savior had no birth and no body while he was in Capernaum of Judea.

Tassman said:
Incorrect. “Tacitus is generally regarded as one of the finest Roman historians. He mentioned Jesus once in his Annals (15:38-45) when he describes how Nero deflects accusations from himself on the fire of Rome and instead blames the fire on the Christians. In describing this, Tacitus gives a short historical background to these ‘Christians’.”

https://atheistforum.wordpress.com/...us-provide-independent-testimony-about-jesus/

Tacitus' Annals 15.44 did not mention a character called Jesus and it was proven that the passage was manipulated.

The copy of Tacitus Annals 15.44 did not originally contain the word "Christians"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

In 1902 Georg Andresen commented on the appearance of the first 'i' and subsequent gap in the earliest extant, 11th century, copy of the Annals in Florence, suggesting that the text had been altered, and an 'e' had originally been in the text, rather than this 'i'.[16] "With ultra-violet examination of the MS the alteration was conclusively shown….

Tassman said:
Even Robert M. Price (an atheist biblical scholar who denies the existence of Jesus) acknowledges that his “personal view runs against the views of virtually all scholars of the period who agree that Jesus the man existed”.

Atheism itself runs against the views of the vast amount of Christian Bible Scholars.

Perhaps you don't know that there are vast amounts of Christian Scholars who pray to their resurrected Jesus born of the Holy Ghost and Mary on Sundays.

Many many Bible Scholars must say their Jesus existed or else they would be denied entrance to heaven.

Matthew 10:33

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven..

Tassman said:
Many do certainly, but many do not. You are dishonestly attributing your own notions to ALL scholars. Why the neurotic obsession and disregard of demonstrable facts? You do the cause of us atheists no service at all.

You have just openly mis-represnted yourself. You write fiction.

I wrote: "Many, many Christian Bible Scholars [most likely in the thousands] agree that Jesus of Nazareth existed as a God/ man, [the son of God born of the Holy Ghost and a Virgin].

The vast amount of Christian Bible Scholars even worship Jesus of Nazareth as a God and pray to him for their salvation so that they can go to heaven".

Tassman said:
The virgin birth of Jesus is only mentioned in two gospels written approximately 90 years after the alleged event. ‘God living in the daughter of man’ clearly wasn’t the defining event of Christianity. Most probably the earliest followers knew nothing of this obviously mythical tale, which in any event was quite commonplace among gods in this superstitious era of magic, miracles and wonders.

The NT Gospels represent the beliefs and teachings of the Jesus cult of Christian and these teachings are corroborated by Christian writers of antiquity.

Many, many Jesus cult Christian cult writers stated their Jesus was God's Son born of a Ghost and Virgin and God Creator.

Some claim the Epistles were written early where it is stated that the Lord Jesus was God Creator.

IanS · Jul 6, 2020

Jerrymander said:
Being baptised and crucified are very human things. Jesus being crucified has been his story from the beginning.

This is getting utterly ridiculous, and it really must stop. You cannot go on wasting everyone's time here by saying that all sorts of things are evidence of Jesus being a real human person, when all your examples are instantly proved untrue and shown to be certainly not the evidence you claim.

OK last time - how do you know that a human Jesus was ever executed or baptised by anyone? Ohh, right, you got it from the bible. Well the bible is most definitely not a credible source of evidence for it's own repeated claims of the incredible and supernaturally impossible.

And as if that were not waaaay more than enough already (which it certainly is), both of the above claims are in fact claims of miracles yet again! ...

... in the crucifixion story, Jesus dies, but then lives again!

... in the baptism, in all 4 gospels, the heavens opened the voice of God was heard, and a spirit was seen descenting into Jesus!

Here – look at this from BibleGateway -

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+1:1-10&version=NIV

The Baptism and Testing of Jesus
9*At that time Jesus came from Nazareth*in Galilee and was baptised by John*in the Jordan.*10*Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

IanS · Jul 6, 2020

theheno said:
Ok hands up anybody that has posted here that would genuinely be happy to have their mind changed.

I would.

If any genuine evidence of Jesus ever turns up then I have zero problem accepting that the new evidence showed that he was probably real.

That would not change my opinion or belief ... because I do not have the opinion or belief that he was a myth! I have no firm opinion about that. I have no idea whether he was real or not ...

... but what I do have a firm opinion about, is that all of the material offered as evidence by HJ believers (posters here and biblical scholars etc.) is certainly NOT the evidence that they claim. And far worse than that, as educated people they really must know that presenting material like that is actually fraudulent and designed to deceive people (perhaps even designed to deceive themselves in a subject where they have pre-conceived beliefs which they dearly want to be true/real).

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